My one complaint about Festool

[VW mick]

Years ago when I took a graduate level marketing class, as a consumer I always hated that the definition of price was "perceived value".  Price doesn't have anything to do with cost.  If you can't sell something for a profit then you don't make it.  Once you cross the threshold of profitability the price is based on what consumers are willing to pay based on the value they see in the product.  If you can make it for $1 and people are willing to spend $1,000,000...

Festool is a prime example.  Who knows if it costs more to manufacture a Festool drill than a similar model from another manufacturer. But, Festool certainly charges more because consumers believe the Festool tool is worth more money.  And, of course, it is the job of the marketing department to make people believe that Festool products are worth more  [smile]

If you're going to throw stuff like that about you're going to need to define "similar". It's pretty obvious that manufacturing a Festool drill costs considerably more than something that's sourced from China.

I'll also go further to say Festool isn't a prime example. Coca Cola IS a prime example.

I'm not saying Festool is a charity, but you need to view this on a spectrum of reality. Businesses have different ethics and values. Some will cover up poisoning a community to avoid a bottom line impact, others will recall a product at their own expense simply because there's a chance that one person could get injured ... oh yes, the "marketing rules the world" people are just going to jump in and say "that's just to avoid a negative market kickback", but I can't change the way people think and draw conclusions.

+1

 

[Carl Prentiss]

OK so can't festool be socially responsible, not poison villagers AND make the $.50 piece of plastic so TS75 owners can get splinter free offcuts on material under 30mm?

 

[Kev]

OK so can't festool be socially responsible, not poison villagers AND make the $.50 piece of plastic so TS75 owners can get splinter free offcuts on material under 30mm?

Have you asked them?

My guess is it's a significant cost to setup to make any new piece of plastic too. Then I'd question the likelihood of a TS75 upgrade being the primary focus anyway!

 

[Gary in Texas]

I appreciate the comments on this thread are bore out of real world frustration, however I simply don't buy the idea that Festool product development and supply is lead by marketing. In my opinion, Festool products are engineered by people who actually use them.

I don't buy into your generic blurb ...

Festool demonstrates clearly that they are driven by product innovation and a set of very high quality and service values. They are obviously not "driven" by marketing. The principles of marketing have to play a part in their go to market strategy and marketing will have a role to play ... but they don't do it from a purely return maximising perspective. "Widgetising" Festool's products and generalising their business model would expect them to switch to a brand profile capitalising strategy that leverages massive scale and lower production costs ... not seeing that happen!

Hope it never does !!!

Not everyone thinks like Gordon Gekko ! [big grin]

Hey Kev,

I don't buy into you not buying into my take on this....but not big deal.

I will say that.....having been in sales, product development, and marketing for a major global company for the past 35 years, currently in the position of Global Account Manager responsible for annual sales of $130-250 million, I think I have a pretty good handle on sales and marketing.  My time spent in product development, deciding what was worthwhile pursuing, and what not to, as well as what to farm out on a manufacturing standpoint, or manufacture in house,  I think I have a much clearer vision in what it takes to develop, market, and sale gadgets/widgets/products.... 

 

[handymanny213]

Festool is a prime example.  Who knows if it costs more to manufacture a Festool drill than a similar model from another manufacturer. But, Festool certainly charges more because consumers believe the Festool tool is worth more money.  And, of course, it is the job of the marketing department to make people believe that Festool products are worth more  [smile]

Totally agree!

 

[Carl Prentiss]

OK so can't festool be socially responsible, not poison villagers AND make the $.50 piece of plastic so TS75 owners can get splinter free offcuts on material under 30mm?

Have you asked them?

My guess is it's a significant cost to setup to make any new piece of plastic too. Then I'd question the likelihood of a TS75 upgrade being the primary focus anyway!

I wrote it on the "Ask Festool" I also mentioned it to the area rep. So yes I asked. New? They've been making this saw for a long time. There should be nothing new about this part. Talking about an upgrade leads right back to the point of my original frustration. Buy a new saw because Festool won't make a splinter guard?

 

[grbmds]

You don't think using quieter, more powerful motors costs more? The support and service is far superior to other companies. That also costs something. It's worthwhile, but it costs something. Then, for the most part, the fit and finish of new tools is much better than most companies. I don't know if it's all worth the whole elevated cost, but it sure is worth something extra.

 

[SittingElf]

Just a guess, but it wouldn't surprise me if Festool has been working on a new TS75 model...something like a TS75REQ.  Remember, it wasn't long ago that the TS55REQ was introduced to replace the older version.

Stay tuned for the New Year....I'm willing to bet! [tongue]

One thing though...What would really be cool is if Festool designed some really RAD new tool that would only be available in North America for a year or two!!!  That would great payback for all the NAINA stuff! Call it NAAWE....("Not available anywhere else") [thumbs up]

Cheers,

Frank

 

[Kev]

I appreciate the comments on this thread are bore out of real world frustration, however I simply don't buy the idea that Festool product development and supply is lead by marketing. In my opinion, Festool products are engineered by people who actually use them.

I don't buy into your generic blurb ...

Festool demonstrates clearly that they are driven by product innovation and a set of very high quality and service values. They are obviously not "driven" by marketing. The principles of marketing have to play a part in their go to market strategy and marketing will have a role to play ... but they don't do it from a purely return maximising perspective. "Widgetising" Festool's products and generalising their business model would expect them to switch to a brand profile capitalising strategy that leverages massive scale and lower production costs ... not seeing that happen!

Hope it never does !!!

Not everyone thinks like Gordon Gekko ! [big grin]

Hey Kev,

I don't buy into you not buying into my take on this....but not big deal.

I will say that.....having been in sales, product development, and marketing for a major global company for the past 35 years, currently in the position of Global Account Manager responsible for annual sales of $130-250 million, I think I have a pretty good handle on sales and marketing.  My time spent in product development, deciding what was worthwhile pursuing, and what not to, as well as what to farm out on a manufacturing standpoint, or manufacture in house,  I think I have a much clearer vision in what it takes to develop, market, and sale gadgets/widgets/products.... 

I'm sorry, but your CV doesn't have any value to me in this context. I actually think you have a very biased viewpoint and that could be a result on being in the same company for 35 years! That's not a criticism - it may really work well where you are!

You'll probably want to rattle more sabres in regard to experience and superior knowledge on x and y and z, but it simply has no value - you're not sitting in the boardroom at Festool HO in a decision making capacity - you're just making assumptions based on your experience.

The basic framework of any successful enterprise dictates certain foundations and functions, but it's not a cookie cutter model for all.

Please get comfortable that myself and probably several/many others don't agree with your level of generalisation and until you author a ground breaking and universally acclaimed text on the subject, I think I'll back my many decades of experience before I bow to your claims of knowing better.

To be clear, nothing negative here! [wink] [smile]

 

[Kev]

OK so can't festool be socially responsible, not poison villagers AND make the $.50 piece of plastic so TS75 owners can get splinter free offcuts on material under 30mm?

Have you asked them?

My guess is it's a significant cost to setup to make any new piece of plastic too. Then I'd question the likelihood of a TS75 upgrade being the primary focus anyway!

I wrote it on the "Ask Festool" I also mentioned it to the area rep. So yes I asked. New? They've been making this saw for a long time. There should be nothing new about this part. Talking about an upgrade leads right back to the point of my original frustration. Buy a new saw because Festool won't make a splinter guard?

Sadly the fact is more likely a German mindset issue ...  [smile]

I have several German friends and they just seem to think a little differently to most. You'd probably confound them if you said you wanted to cut something under 30mm with a TS75 - they'd just tell you that's what the TS55 is for!

Have you ever seen a German mechanic at work?

 

[Stephen B]

Just a guess, . .,.

One thing though...What would really be cool is if Festool designed some really RAD new tool that would only be available in North America for a year or two!!!  That would great payback for all the NAINA stuff! Call it NAAWE....("Not available anywhere else") [thumbs up]

Cheers,

Frank

[size=14pt]
They have Frank, it is called the Shane and it comes with two accessories the Peter and the Seth. This exclusive item to NA is being marketed internationally, but only to an exclusive few that are in the know.

This exclusivity to those in the know is part of Festool's marketing strategy. Build a well designed, quality item that will assist in producing high quality work and they the customers will follow. Don't engage in mass advertising, beyond strategic product placement and ensure that your dealer network also offers quality service.

Thus Customers become the main marketing tool. Earlier this year on Melbourne's 774 radio there was talkback on our favourite things. One caller discussed the range of high quality power tools he had including a sander that was almost dustless. He did not mention the brand name because 774 is a non commercial radio station. But those in the know new the brand, and those who did not had their curiosity raised.

 

[VW mick]

Think we need to go back to basics on this

once you are about 5 or 6 festools in you change your mentality

1.ive a domino df500 it's done everything I've wanted it to straight out of the SYS
Next year I've an idea to make a new front door and a gate .possibly a new dinning room table .i don't expect the 500 to do this so .the 700 will be a good idea

2.ive got an RO90 ,RO125,ETS125 , I think a 150 sander will help me with the above

3.ive got a TS 55 if I had a load of 55mm doors to cut I wouldn't expect the 55 to do it I'd get a TS 75

4.ive about 5 different rails .next couple of months I've a couple of units to build .i might get a holey rail .i don't expect the rails I've got to do it

5.ive got an OF1010 and an OF1400 ..have been doing a couple of jobs lately where they have both been set up .. So I might get a OF2200

6.ive aCSX I really like it ..I've a couple of 14v Panasonic drills when they give up I will buy festool 18v

It goes on and on . I don't think it's festools fault  .just once you have bought into the quality and the system ..it's a no brainer 

 

[Gary in Texas]

Hey Kev,

I don't buy into you not buying into my take on this....but not big deal.

I will say that.....having been in sales, product development, and marketing for a major global company for the past 35 years, currently in the position of Global Account Manager responsible for annual sales of $130-250 million, I think I have a pretty good handle on sales and marketing.  My time spent in product development, deciding what was worthwhile pursuing, and what not to, as well as what to farm out on a manufacturing standpoint, or manufacture in house,  I think I have a much clearer vision in what it takes to develop, market, and sale gadgets/widgets/products.... 

I'm sorry, but your CV doesn't have any value to me in this context. I actually think you have a very biased viewpoint and that could be a result on being in the same company for 35 years! That's not a criticism - it may really work well where you are!

You'll probably want to rattle more sabres in regard to experience and superior knowledge on x and y and z, but it simply has no value - you're not sitting in the boardroom at Festool HO in a decision making capacity - you're just making assumptions based on your experience.

The basic framework of any successful enterprise dictates certain foundations and functions, but it's not a cookie cutter model for all.

Please get comfortable that myself and probably several/many others don't agree with your level of generalisation and until you author a ground breaking and universally acclaimed text on the subject, I think I'll back my many decades of experience before I bow to your claims of knowing better.

To be clear, nothing negative here! [wink] [smile]

Kev - Understood!

Let's take a look at Festool Australia (ToolTechnic Systems... as in TTS Germany) shall we???

In an article in the "Business In Focus" in Australia some quotes if I may:

Ownership - "Mr Schulz had previously acted as Managing Director from the commencement of the company in 1999 through to 2006 – at which time Mr Brydon took over the controlling role as Mr Holger took a global position in Germany with Festool. In 2009, the two combined forces to purchase the Australian and New Zealand business arm from the Tooltechnic German holding company."

"To be sure, the emerging trend in retail for consumers to interface with the internet before making a purchase presents a great challenge for traditional suppliers. “They are in the driving seat,” comments Mr Brydon. “We must research and interact with them to win the business which may otherwise go to the big boxes; the market is quite competitive.”

Concludes Mr Brydon, “Our vision to be Australia’s first choice for quality power tools solutions drives us to develop innovative ways to sell the premium products and provide value for money to the customers. A key element to our growth is having a focused team with the right skills and assets for each position and this is forever changing as the company develops and the priorities change.”

Well, alrighty then Kev, perhaps not Festool Germany, although these guys DID work and manage Festool Germany.    Seriously though, no response is required, I think your own Mr. Brydon clear illustrates my point with regards to marketing, sales, product development, etc....  Personally, I've made my point and will not contribute further on this thread.... 

 

[AlexThePalex]

others will recall a product at their own expense simply because there's a chance that one person could get injured

Hmm, if I recall correctly, the TS55R was only recalled in the one country where you can sue for millions.   

 

[Kev]

Hey Kev,

I don't buy into you not buying into my take on this....but not big deal.

I will say that.....having been in sales, product development, and marketing for a major global company for the past 35 years, currently in the position of Global Account Manager responsible for annual sales of $130-250 million, I think I have a pretty good handle on sales and marketing.  My time spent in product development, deciding what was worthwhile pursuing, and what not to, as well as what to farm out on a manufacturing standpoint, or manufacture in house,  I think I have a much clearer vision in what it takes to develop, market, and sale gadgets/widgets/products.... 

I'm sorry, but your CV doesn't have any value to me in this context. I actually think you have a very biased viewpoint and that could be a result on being in the same company for 35 years! That's not a criticism - it may really work well where you are!

You'll probably want to rattle more sabres in regard to experience and superior knowledge on x and y and z, but it simply has no value - you're not sitting in the boardroom at Festool HO in a decision making capacity - you're just making assumptions based on your experience.

The basic framework of any successful enterprise dictates certain foundations and functions, but it's not a cookie cutter model for all.

Please get comfortable that myself and probably several/many others don't agree with your level of generalisation and until you author a ground breaking and universally acclaimed text on the subject, I think I'll back my many decades of experience before I bow to your claims of knowing better.

To be clear, nothing negative here! [wink] [smile]

Kev - Understood!

Let's take a look at Festool Australia (ToolTechnic Systems... as in TTS Germany) shall we???

In an article in the "Business In Focus" in Australia some quotes if I may:

Ownership - "Mr Schulz had previously acted as Managing Director from the commencement of the company in 1999 through to 2006 – at which time Mr Brydon took over the controlling role as Mr Holger took a global position in Germany with Festool. In 2009, the two combined forces to purchase the Australian and New Zealand business arm from the Tooltechnic German holding company."

"To be sure, the emerging trend in retail for consumers to interface with the internet before making a purchase presents a great challenge for traditional suppliers. “They are in the driving seat,” comments Mr Brydon. “We must research and interact with them to win the business which may otherwise go to the big boxes; the market is quite competitive.”

Concludes Mr Brydon, “Our vision to be Australia’s first choice for quality power tools solutions drives us to develop innovative ways to sell the premium products and provide value for money to the customers. A key element to our growth is having a focused team with the right skills and assets for each position and this is forever changing as the company develops and the priorities change.”

Well, alrighty then Kev, what say yes to that???  Perhaps not Festool Germany, although these guys DID work and manage Festool Germany.    Seriously though, no response is required, I think your own Mr. Brydon clear illustrates my point with regards to marketing, sales, product development, etc....  Personally, I've made my point and will not contribute further on this thread.... 

Way to go, grasp a small snippet of blurb and you think you can draw your complete conclusions. I know some of the people mentioned personally. Have you spent any time talking to Blair Brydon? Oh I doubt it very much, but your many years of expertise can probably tell me the colour of his eyes. Maybe you should look deeper into Tooltechnic in Oz and you'll see how dramatically different their behaviour is to the "greater Festool".

Amazing thing about the internet, you can always find something to support any viewpoint.

Tooltechnic is not a product design and manufacturing company, they are an importer and distributor - a distributor that's now selling online directly ... effectively in competition with their own resellers.

So no, perhaps not Festool Germany ... that bit you got right!

... and seriously - no more responses required ... something else you got right, prematurely though.

 

[Kev]

others will recall a product at their own expense simply because there's a chance that one person could get injured

Hmm, if I recall correctly, the TS55R was only recalled in the one country where you can sue for millions. 

True.

Basic survival can also drive some business behaviour!

 

[jbasen]

I would also add that companies define their market segment and then the good ones focus all the energies and act in specific ways to become the leader in that market.  While both Festool and Harbor Freight make power tools, personally I don't consider them to be competitors.  They target different people and their actions are totally different in their pursuit of the people they feel are their customers. 

Festool targets the very high end of the overall power tools market.  They differentiate themselves from their competitors through innovation.  Making cheap tools in China or turning out lots of little add-on widgets that you would be forced to buy would be counterproductive to the goal of dominating the market segment they have chosen to pursue.

The fact that there are so many people on FOG who have such strong, positive feelings about Festool is proof, at least to me, of how good Festool is at marketing. 

I was a C level executive for a consulting company specializing in custom software development.  We chose to focus on the high end of that market.  We focused on innovation and invested heavily in R&D/Engineering. We then used that investment to the advantage of our customers. That helped justify the higher rates we charged than our competitors.  Sounds a lot like Festool in many ways though we were in totally different businesses.  Make no mistake it was a marketing decision to go after that high end market segment.  The focus on innovation, R&D, and engineering was necessary in that market segment to make the business successful; just like Festool.

 

[Kev]

Marketing does not run a company. Some companies make the majority of their decisions from the marketing angle, others less. A company, enterprise, association, partnership, etc all operate on a foundation of values and principles. Sometimes these are only implicit. The breadth of these values and principles dictate how much marketing roles and functions influence the decisions made by a leadership team. Values and principles can evolve over time and yes, sometimes they're influenced by a marketing related issue.

The point I'm trying to make clear is the influence of marketing is not absolute and that it is a variable relative to other decision driving sources.

Public companies are obviously heavily influenced buy a need to increase shareholder value. That is a force that places a demand on marketing, sales, product development, management efficiency and effectiveness, sourcing, etc that's true for everything from financial services to manufacturing and ever some areas or research.

Private companies tend to be more varied on the balance of decision making.

Making assumptions without facts about the drivers for Festool's business (or any other), then using those assumptions to "make a point" is flawed. Sometime the outward signs are hard to argue, other times more complex.

We will not agree on this and I will not be swayed ... I'm just a "glass half full" kinda guy!

 

[RC]

One thing though...What would really be cool is if Festool designed some really RAD new tool that would only be available in North America for a year or two!!!  That would great payback for all the NAINA stuff! Call it NAAWE....("Not available anywhere else") [thumbs up]

Heh, all they would need to do is come up with a MFT/3 connectable tablesaw with a 3 foot blade that comes with a turbo charged 8 litre petrol V8 powering it and it would be an instant hit the 'supersize me NA'  [wink]

[popcorn][popcorn][popcorn]

 

[Kev]

One thing though...What would really be cool is if Festool designed some really RAD new tool that would only be available in North America for a year or two!!!  That would great payback for all the NAINA stuff! Call it NAAWE....("Not available anywhere else") [thumbs up]

Heh, all they would need to do is come up with a MFT/3 connectable tablesaw with a 3 foot blade that comes with a turbo charged 8 litre petrol V8 powering it and it would be an instant hit the 'supersize me NA'  [wink]

[popcorn][popcorn][popcorn]

That literally resulted in red wine on my keyboard [eek] [embarassed]

I can see an AINAO thread coming on ... Like a Domino attachment for an F350 that cuts 2' x 4' mortices and a DC unit capable of warping gravity [big grin]

... can't go by the SGTLCDPS12 ... Satellite Guided Track Less Cordless Drone Plunger Saw 12". Complete with iPhone app (OK Android too) for guidance control.