My one complaint about Festool

[semenza]

Lets make sure this stays (or gets back to) friendly , please.

BTW , where can I buy some Threadlock?  Is that a Loctite  product?  [wink]

Seth

In case you're still wondering... go to an auto supply store.

Yeah, I was just running with the original joke a bit.  [wink]

Seth

 

[greg mann]

Making holy rails is a significant second operation particularly in the longer sizes. This requires a machining center with great travel. This would drive the cost up even higher and then people would be complaining why do I need these holes if they're only going to add cost? As Frank pointed out it is only a minor charge if you ask for the upgrade when you buy your saw.

Greg:

You just neutralized your own argument?!

[poke] [big grin]

If "it is only a minor charge" to upgrade to the holey rails, then it can't be true that "Making holy rails is a significant second operation particularly in the longer sizes. This would drive the cost up even higher" 

The cost difference for the 55" rail is established/published - and it is only $5 more AT RETAIL. And I could easily argue that even THAT difference could be virtually eliminated by eliminating an essentially duplicate SKU. The manufacturing cost can't be different by more than a buck! Eliminate the plain rail from production and you'd likely save that $1 so fast you'd smack yourself for not doing it earlier.

The 95" holey rail isn't quite so easy to compare, since there is no 95" plain rail, but based on the cost of the 106" plain rail it is easy to see that you'd likely be adding about $10-$15 AT RETAIL. 'Raw' manufacturing cost difference is probably more like $2-3.

And that doesn't even address the marketing/loyalty value of putting a 'Holey Rail' in the hands of a new customer who doesn't yet know that they're gonna want the LR-32 system!

I also agree that Festool engineers are really smart and build some great stuff. But this is one case where I believe the engineers should listen to the marketing people.

Actually, i did not neutralize my own argument. I was not quite articulate so I will restate. It costs little to upgrade, meaning exchange a plain 55" for a holey rail, an opinion you also share. So my question is: Why complain they should all be holey when it is only five bucks to upgrade? The 95" is only made as a holey rail because it is designed spcifically to fit within the confines of a plywood sheet. Can you imagine the howls if the 106" rail was holey but could not be used inside a pre-made cabinet?

The 55 is only a 5 buck upcharge because it can be milled on a relatively common and inexpensive VMC. Any longer and the cost goes up bigtime. The plain rails are relatively simple extrusions, precisely cut to length as they are spit out and i would not be surprised if the 'hanging holes' were not part of that same station. Machining the 32mm pattern would probably tke ten times as long as extruding the rail. This totally seperate operation would be way more than one dollar

 

[greg mann]

I'd like to appoach this from a different direction. From a marketing perspective does it make sense to add holes for free to a rail with the expectation it will persuade a significant number of customers to spend four to six hundred dollars MORE on a router and LR32 add-ons so they can take advantage of those holes? Or, does it make more sense that a customer who Has ALREADY spent the hundreds will spend an incremental amount more to add 32mm capability?

Anyone with a smattering of marketing strategy can see the holes first appoach is upside-down.

 

[John H]

I'd like to appoach this from a different direction. From a marketing perspective does it make sense to add holes for free to a rail with the expectation it will persuade a significant number of customers to spend four to six hundred dollars MORE on a router and LR32 add-ons so they can take advantage of those holes? Or, does it make more sense that a customer who Has ALREADY spent the hundreds will spend an incremental amount more to add 32mm capability?

Anyone with a smattering of marketing strategy can see the holes first appoach is upside-down.

What happened to the "SYSTEM" ?

The Track Saw is probably one of the most popular Festools - that is what got me started.  Why wouldn't you want to sell the holey rail standard with the track saw.  There is no real detriment to having holes in it versus not having holes.  It would also open the door for the LR32, different routers, etc etc. 

One thing I hate is wasting money duplicating something like another track just to have the holes...

 

[DrD]

There is no publically or privately held corporation in the world - short of some non-profits - which does not have as their number 1 goal to maximize return on investor equity, and to argue that point is profitless.  And to top it off, after all the puffing and posturing by the dissenters, we TS75 owners have neither a Festool dust shroud, nor a useful splinter guard for anything less than a full cut.

Donald Goodman, Ph.D.

[ edited for personal attacks on other members - Shane ]

 

[Scott B.]

It is easy for all of us to be armchair quarterbacks, especially on an internet forum.

That said, all manufacturers have to deal with the reality that their products will end up in the hands of both recreational and professional users with an immense variety of skill sets and goals.

Some manufacturers water their stuff down and sell diy versions in big box stores.

Could be worse.

They are just tools.

Be safe. Enjoy.

 

[peter halle]

Festool will not publicly comment on it's marketing or other strategic decisions here.  In the spirit of maintaining the good will here on the FOG that so many have tried to foster and grow over the years and at the risk of irritating some, I am going to lock this thread.

Thank you for your understanding.

Peter Halle - Moderator

 

[peter halle]

Following discussion by the guys behind the scenes the decision was made to re open this thread so that those who wish to express themselves with complaints about Festool could do so.  So please do.

But if the posting continues as it has been with personal attacks against other members then further moderation may be required.

Peter Halle - Moderator

 

[shed9]

It is easy for all of us to be armchair quarterbacks, especially on an internet forum.

This is probably the most salient point in this thread. I agree, it's easy for us to be angry and 'always right' from the comfort of our keyboards. Bottom line is we are all here because we like our tools (holes or no holes) and I'd like to think if I ever met Baremeg55 in real life that the conversation would be about tools and wood and not about who is more right in their own respective concept of the corporate world - hell that's one of the reasons most of us are here in the first place - to avoid those typical discussions.  [smile]

 

[wow]

Getting back to complaining [mad] MY number one FRUSTRATION is the number of items that are NAINA. Since this has been discussed many times before (UL issues, size of market for Festool, etc.)  I won't dwell on it except to say the whole idea of a Festool 'system' gets broken or at least severely weakened when you make so many items NAINA.  Festool MUST know this, right? I wonder how loyal a German customer would remain if you limited them only to the items that are AINA?

Simple examples that frustrate me no end are:

No Lid-Sort (attic) Systainers
No Lid-Sort Bit Holders/Sets
No Centrotec Ratchet Set in Mini Systainer
No Plug-It Conversion Kits (although that may be a UL issue, which I then somewhat understand)
No Vac-Sys (Probably a UL issue)
No PDC (Which for me is hard to understand since the tool is cordless and the charger and batteries are already approved and here in the US)
No BHC - see above
No DWC - see above

It's more than a little ironic that my ONE complaint about Festool is that - while they continually and rightfully tout their 'system' of products - they don't seem to be willing to make that compete system available in the US?

 

[AlexThePalex]

(although that may be a UL issue, which I then somewhat understand)

As a European, the whole UL issue is actually the thing I least understand. Why are things deemed safe over here deemed otherwise in the States? I can't wrap my head around it, you'd think grown up people in America are just as responsible as they are over here and don't need no nanny protection.

 

[wow]

(although that may be a UL issue, which I then somewhat understand)

As a European, the whole UL issue is actually the thing I least understand. Why are things deemed safe over here deemed otherwise in the States? I can't wrap my head around it, you'd think grown up people in America are just as responsible as they are over here and don't need no nanny protection.

I want to be VERY careful not to let my comments get political or whatever, so let me see if I can word this appropriately.

UL is NOT a government agency - they a FOR PROFIT organization that somehow seems to have stained some sort of 'emperor-like' status. IMHO, they charge a ridiculous amount of money to test products, and their rules are sometimes egregious and arbitrary. The reason I said that I somewhat understand about UL issues is because of this, and I can't/won't blame Festool for (this is me GUESSING here) maybe feeling like they are being held hostage by UL.

That said, Festool has already successfully dealt with UL issues so they are clearly capable of doing so again.

Hopefully that was non-political, while still showing my disgust for a nanny organization that isn't even a government agency?

[wink]

 

[shed9]

I want to be VERY careful not to let my comments get political or whatever, so let me see if I can word this appropriately.

UL is NOT a government agency - they a FOR PROFIT organization that somehow seems to have stained some sort of 'emperor-like' status. IMHO, they charge a ridiculous amount of money to test products, and their rules are sometimes egregious and arbitrary. The reason I said that I somewhat understand about UL issues is because of this, and I can't/won't blame Festool for (this is me GUESSING here) maybe feeling like they are being held hostage by UL.

That said, Festool has already successfully dealt with UL issues so they are clearly capable of doing so again.

Hopefully that was non-political, while still showing my disgust for a nanny organization that isn't even a government agency?

[wink]

If it's any consolation WOW, UL has it's fingers in industry worldwide - it's not just a NA thing.

I used to work in military and avionic electronics and the UL hoops we had to jump through for products that would never have seen NA shores was ridiculous. I can see a clear need for safety approval and other forms of recognised certification and to be fair UL does achieve that but the problem is that bureaucracy and profit kind of take over.

There really needs to be some collaboration / fast track process with the likes of CE and other European approval systems in regards to UL.

 

[Throwback7r]

Just for the record guys

I DONT WANT HOLES IN ALL MY RAILS

If i do I will happily buy one .

Ps festool didn't make me do this

Why would you not want holes in all your rails? I can't think of any reason not to ? I don't think they are less strong and in fact they should weigh less, making them easier to carry. I am still wondering why all the rails don't have holes.

When I bought my track saw " my dealer is pretty shotty" so they did not explain the difference. Now I have 1 rail with out holes and when I bought my second rail, another 1400, I bought the LR32 model with the holes. Because,  I finally understood what the holes were for.

 

[Stephen B]

[size=14pt]

WOW, the US is not the only country that has regulations, for example European  Union Standards and regulations and Australia's Electrical and Safety Standards.

And yet in this regulated environment where Festools must meet Australian Standards, we have most of the items available in Europe. I think it was Alex who said/inferred  it in relation to the TS55 REQ,  you live in one of the most extreme litigious countries in the world.

As UL is a private company, you can certainly bet that in such a litigious environment they would be across everything with extreme scrutiny.

But do not think things are slack in Europe or Australia. Our electrical standards are strict. Further in the construction industry tools are inspected and tagged on major large construction sites, all qualified carpenters, plumbers, cabinet makers and electricians have served a 3-4 year apprenticeship (or have recognised OS experience) and every electrical fit out is inspected before being put on the grid and on average 1:20 plumbing fit outs are also inspected. Further electricians must in most cases certify their work to the customer.

I am giving all this as an example of the standards in which many tradespeople and industries work outside NA. Unfortunately of late our legal fraternity is catching the NA disease. Consequently lawyers and Insurance companies are raising the costs of doing business.

----------

Re Rails. If the price down here was hole or no holes for $5.00 it would be a no brainier. This is an example where NA pricing favours it's customers - this should surely make up in some way for NAINA.  [big grin]

 

[Paul G]

Festool is not unlike other companies, they market themselves as the go to leader in high quality, dust free tools.  One of the best set of tools on the market, if not the best on the market.  Period!

And yet the TS 75 needs some help in that dept.

 

[Paul G]

They are just tools.

That's almost sacrilege around here, but I agree.

 

[Paul G]

Why would you not want holes in all your rails? I can't think of any reason not to ? I don't think they are less strong and in fact they should weigh less, making them easier to carry. I am still wondering why all the rails don't have holes.

One reason would be the holes will collect dust.

 

[jbasen]

Following discussion by the guys behind the scenes the decision was made to re open this thread so that those who wish to express themselves with complaints about Festool could do so.  So please do.

But if the posting continues as it has been with personal attacks against other members then further moderation may be required.

Peter Halle - Moderator

Thanks Peter.  I started this thread trying to make it one of constructive criticism.  Specifically I saw issues with a few tools and wanted to bring those issues to light so that, if others agreed, Festool would see there was value in addressing what I perceived as deficiencies.  I am sorry if the way I worded that criticism caused this thread to take on a totally different direction than I ever intended. 

I appreciate your unlocking it so hopefully it can go back to its original intention of constructive criticism  I started the thread by saying that I love my Festool tools.  I just feel that there is always room for improvement and hopefully pointing out those areas makes things better for both Festool as a manufacturer and the people who use their tools.

 

[jbasen]

Getting back to complaining [mad] MY number one FRUSTRATION is the number of items that are NAINA. Since this has been discussed many times before (UL issues, size of market for Festool, etc.)  I won't dwell on it except to say the whole idea of a Festool 'system' gets broken or at least severely weakened when you make so many items NAINA.  Festool MUST know this, right? I wonder how loyal a German customer would remain if you limited them only to the items that are AINA?

Simple examples that frustrate me no end are:

No Lid-Sort (attic) Systainers
No Lid-Sort Bit Holders/Sets
No Centrotec Ratchet Set in Mini Systainer
No Plug-It Conversion Kits (although that may be a UL issue, which I then somewhat understand)
No Vac-Sys (Probably a UL issue)
No PDC (Which for me is hard to understand since the tool is cordless and the charger and batteries are already approved and here in the US)
No BHC - see above
No DWC - see above

It's more than a little ironic that my ONE complaint about Festool is that - while they continually and rightfully tout their 'system' of products - they don't seem to be willing to make that compete system available in the US?

This is also an area of frustration for me.  I fully understand the market in NA may be smaller than in other parts of the world and what Festool imports is going to be based on what they think will be profitable to sell here.  However, there are some decisions I don't understand.  One specific example is the 27mm bypass adapter for small sanders. 

http://www.festool.com.au/epages/tooltechnic.sf/en_AU/?ObjectPath=/Shops/tooltechnic/Products/496112

I've seen many threads where people have issues with some of the sanders being jumpy (RTS-400 and DTS-400 are the ones that I've seen complained about the most) and turning down the vacuum suction to the lowest level isn't enough to solve the problem.  Festool has an accessory to solve this problem but it is NAINA.  If they sell the sanders here in NA why wouldn't they sell an accessory that makes them work properly or even include one more small piece of plastic when you buy the sander?

I have a DTS-400 and I made my own adapter.  However, since I don't have access to conductive plastic I had to cover it with conductive metal tape like a UDD.  I expect that may violate the warranty but under the circumstances what choice do I have.