My Wife's Take on Wainscoting

[johnesher]

I just finished up my first wainscoting project (not including some beaded board and panel cap) in my entry and up the stairs. My wife wanted a 2/3 wall height, but because of the stair ceiling I didn't think it would look right. So I matched it to an existing entry coat/shoe cubby and it ended up being 54". I understand that's a little untraditional, but the "client" is very pleased.

Now I need some advice – I've had three people ask for something similar in their house (since posting on FB yesterday). I'm 27 years in law enforcement, and am looking to learn a skill for retirement in threeish years. I'm not adverse to "apprenticing" and thinking I wouldn't mind doing small trim carpentry jobs. So here's the question,

What would you charge for something like this?

It's sixteen linear feet, 54" tall and made of MDF and pine baseboards. My cost, as best I can figure, is $15.56 per foot. I have no idea of my hourly rate, as I can't charge my jobby job rate...so I'm thinking 3-4 times the material cost?

If it makes a difference I'm in southeast PA – 19083.

 

[peter halle]

NICE WORK!

When it comes to costs, especially if you are first going out on your own, I will always advise to do it on a time and material basis.  That will allow you to - KEEP RECORDS (hint) - and learn.  That aspect can be more valuable long term than earning a few more bucks now. 

Using a multiplier based on material costs can be useful for budgeting but using that long term for fixed prices will hurt you.  By example.  You used MDF in this project.  And then moldings.  If you want to minimize costs you will buy MDF sheets and then cut each piece.  Cheap in cost - high in labor.  Then the moldings.  High in cost - low in labor.  Perhaps there is a happy middle ground and you have another job to support you.  If you mess up now on price but cover your material costs then you will have been paid more than watching tv.  But if you price a job using a multiplier and the material is all premium priced then you will be pricing yourself out of the market.

I am not in your market, but 2 to 3 times the material would be a good starting point for a budget number with the final pricing to be on a time and material basis in my area.  If I go thru my 17 years of data - in a lower priced market than you - I personally get into the final range of labor being 54 to 67 percent of the jobs.  I am sure that I am on the low scale here.  But if it was this project I would be hoping to get to the higher part of that range and writing off some of the opportunity costs to creating and saving data for the next one.

Hopefully others will pipe in with their thoughts.

Peter

 

[Naildrivingman]

I'm certain there are many formulas, but as Peter suggested, there is nothing that will work better than time&materials (aka Cost-Plus).  T&M will help you learn how to estimate the budgetary costs without being held to a fixed value.  In the end, t&m is the fairest to all parties.  You may (usually) settle for a lower hourly rate, but you get paid for all the time you devote to the project whether on site or off; your client is only paying for the time you invested versus a usually elevated value to cover unforeseen issues.

Regarding your question, I would recommend that you add up all the time you invested in your project from conception to final brushstroke and multiply it by an hourly compensation that you feel you need to receive to make it worth your while (remember, having someone say "Honey that looks so nice!" doesn't pay the bills). Add to that the cost for your materials and then multiply that total by a markup percentage.  Take the total you arrive at and float a few test balloons with family and friends, let them be your barometer.

Ultimately what you charge is contingent upon several factors:
1. What the local market will bear
2. What you need to make
3. Are you doing this as a hobby or legitimate business (i.e. LLC, Licensed/insured, taxes...)

Many factors need to be considered.  Good luck!

 

[six-point socket II]

Hi!

That looks downright amazing! Wonderful work!

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[Holmz]

I just finished up my first wainscoting project (not including some beaded board and panel cap) in my entry and up the stairs. My wife wanted a 2/3 wall height, but because of the stair ceiling I didn't think it would look right.
...
I'm 27 years in law enforcement...

What would you charge for something like this?
...

I would charge them with "high crimes" rather than misdemeanours.

 

[Bob D.]

T&M is fair IF your production rate is reasonable. By that I mean if your work progresses at half the rate of any other contractor then you are costing the client money not charging a fair price.

 

[Gregor]

T&M is fair IF your production rate is reasonable. By that I mean if your work progresses at half the rate of any other contractor then you are costing the client money not charging a fair price.

Only, to stay in your example, when you're charging the same hourly rate as the 'any other contractor'.
Nothing stops one to charge less to reflect the 'takes longer' from 'being new in the field'.

 

[bobfog]

Probably gonna get shot down for this, given the ubiquitous precedent of only being "nice" on this forum. But, if you are going to charge people money I think your painting skills need to improve, from the photos it looks like you've applied the paint too heavily and some of the detail and sharpness of the lines has been lost as a result. Evident from the comparison of the newell post in the second photo. Good attempt for a hammer chewer though!

As for what to charge, I am UK based so a) I have nothing of value to add given I don't know the US market, and b) wainscoting is a very niche taste over here and not a lot of call for it for me to know what people might be prepared to pay.

 

[Wooden Skye]

Nice work.  I would take on those two jobs as test cases since you are still working your LE career.  Use these jobs to see how long it takes to complete, start building a portfolio, and these will help you in the future.  You could use different methods mentioned here to see what works best. 

 

[johnesher]

...applied the paint too heavily and some of the detail and sharpness of the lines has been lost as a result. Evident from the comparison of the newell post in the second photo. Good attempt for a hammer chewer though...

I'll take any constructive criticism! Trust me, you don't last in my career being overly sensitive.

I'll admit the paint job is lacking, it was my first time using an airless sprayer. But I'm not sure if you think the paint on the newel is too thick, or the wainscoting ( I think the latter). The trim is not identical between the wall and newel – the wall is more of an offset, in that it goes over the edge of the stile. On the newel the trim was ripped to decrease the width, so hence the heavier shadow lines in the photo.

 

[johnesher]

Nice work.  I would take on those two jobs as test cases since you are still working your LE career.  Use these jobs to see how long it takes to complete, start building a portfolio, and these will help you in the future.  You could use different methods mentioned here to see what works best.

Given the sound reasoning above concerning T&M, I plan on doing the jobs at a linear foot price but keeping detailed time records. I guess theses friends will get a great deal while I build the portfolio and I learn how to charge for Time.

Concerning the Materials side of T&M, what is the going markup for you all? Keep in mind, I will be sourcing, purchasing, picking up and bringing it all to the job site.

 

[antss]

Markup is typically 0-35% for services.

Hourly rates vary from $15ish to $135.

The ONLY thing that matters is what your willing to work for and what your market is willing to value your services for.  If you can get a 30% markup and $135 hr to go buy the MDF for your projects, you'd be crazy not to charge that much.

I doubt you're going to be able to sell that though. On the other hand , you'd be crazy to work for $15hr and zero markup for doing the same thing.  So, you've got to look in the mirror decide what's the lowest wage you're willing to accept and then use your best guess for the amount of time it's going to take you.  Material costing is pretty basic and easy.

So, no job should end up costing you out of pocket but you may wind up working for below minimum wage. Consider it tuition payments.

 

[bkharman]

First off, great job mate!  I really like the untraditional traditional lines of the layout. Perhaps a little more of your steps and process?

I also would go with "take the jobs at a lower than expected price" if these are friends. If you do plan on supplementing you pension in about three years, you will want to build a portfolio and reference base well before that. I would also suggest starting up your own LLC or proprietorship now. That way you can have a timeframe reference to go with the project references which is always of comfort.

If these are friends, or friends of friends, then be upfront on pricing. Say that based on the linear feet at this rate you are looking at $xxx.xx amount in materials. I generally run $xx.xx per hour for labor and that should take you to the final price. I am just starting out so my rate is not that high, but I expect you to be fair in your assessment of the final result.  You could also outsource the painting if that is your weekspot for now.

It is all a puzzle. I am not in law enforcement, but am a technical sales director at a software company and have been building my next retirement career as well. Hope some of my thoughts help you out!

Oh, one other thing. If you are doing this on nights and weekends and offshift, be careful not to have long delays in the project. No customer wants their place in disarray while they live through it. Set a realistic timeframe with them on how long, then add 2 weeks and say that is your commitment. That way if you finish on time, you finish early!!  And please don't wear yourself out... speaking from experience.  ;^)

Cheers. Bryan.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[tjbnwi]

Seeing as you're a LEO, here are the basic laws that apply in Pennsylvania;
https://www.attorneygeneral.gov/upl.../HIC_Contractors/Act_132_Home_Improvement.pdf

If your total sales per year are $5000.00 or over you must register as a contractor.

A true T&M contract is not legal in PA. if the value of the job is over $500.00.

You'll need insurance to protect yourself, just incase.

Tom

 

[johnesher]

Thanks to all for the wealth of information. I'll be deciding on a business name shortly and registering it, along with establishing an LLC. Then I guess I'll start looking for quotes for liability insurance.

 

[Tinker]

My third job as a brand new contractor way back about 100 years ago, give or take,was to constract a garage foundation.  The ground wa very uneven with lege popping out at various levels.  A few tree to take own and not any space to get a  digging machine in. That was way before there were rubber tired backhoes in every contractors yard. he digging equipment was actually cable operated froward scooping "steam shovels" and the old style cable operating dozers. For such a small job, I had to do the digging by hand. I knew that was going to be tough.  Due to th uneveness of the ground, it was going to be tough just laying out and setting up batter boards and lines to keep everything level and square while working alone. I had no idea how long the digging would take but I wa game to dive in to the job. I had no idea how many concrete blocks to estimate as the indications for ledge were all very uneven. I figured the job and added a percentage. I went back to look at the siteand dded another percentage. got home and got to thinking of the problems i would be facing and added anoher percentage.  By the time I was ready to present my estimate, i already had other calls for work.  i decided , "what the heck, i don't really need the job anyhow, so I added another percent."  With all that, I was preented with the job.  By the time the foundation was completed and concrete floor poured and finished, the owners were so happy with my wofk they asked me to give a price for a slate  floor in theiri nside sun room.  That  I could figure.

When I gave that price, the owner complained that I should give him a break on that job as I had been the highest bidder for the garage foundation.  "Why did you give me the job when I was the highest bidder?"  "Well we knew there could be difficulties and we knew the job might be expensive. You were so much higher that we figured you knew better what you were doing." Since I had done alright money/ time wise on the foundation, I did knock a little off from the stone job. I made a little money on the stone job but it was not difficult to estimate and even easier to do. That garage foundation was difficult from the git go and I will rmember it for almost forever.

I can sympathise with anybody starting in and working alone and never given estimates before. With no reputation, it can be a very tough sell with a  lot of luck to go with the sell.
Tinker

 

[Wooden Skye]

Another way to gauge what you should charge is find a couple of trim carpenters come and price out work at your place.  Play kinda dumb and say you would like to replicate your work in another part of the house, just say it was there when you bought it.  You could also do the same with the people who asked you to do the work.  As for materials, make sure you keep track of everything, glue, caulk, nails, brushes, etc.  In the end it all factors in.

 

[J0hn]

That turned out great!

If you get a chance, perhaps start another thread with pics on how you did it.  I am sure there are many of us here that are interested

 

[tjbnwi]

Another way to gauge what you should charge is find a couple of trim carpenters come and price out work at your place.  Play kinda dumb and say you would like to replicate your work in another part of the house, just say it was there when you bought it.  You could also do the same with the people who asked you to do the work.  As for materials, make sure you keep track of everything, glue, caulk, nails, brushes, etc.  In the end it all factors in.

This is why I charge a base of $75.00 for a site visit which includes 1 hour, it is $65.00 per hour after the first broken down into 15 minutes increments.

You want a free estimate, I'll ask you a few questions and give you a cost range over the phone, text or email.

Tom

 

[Tinker]

Another way to gauge what you should charge is find a couple of trim carpenters come and price out work at your place.  Play kinda dumb and say you would like to replicate your work in another part of the house, just say it was there when you bought it.  You could also do the same with the people who asked you to do the work.  As for materials, make sure you keep track of everything, glue, caulk, nails, brushes, etc.  In the end it all factors in.

I had been taken in by just that sort of deal.  I had been asked to figure a job, supposedly for me to do.  A few weeks later, I found the guy who I had figred for doing the work himself. I said nothing and eventually, I was asked to figure again. That time, because I suspected the bid was really for his benefit, I gave a low-ball figure. Sure enough, a few weeks later, he was doing the job. A few weeks more, and he was cursing me out because he had lost a ton of money on the job by using my estimate. I really cried over that one. : The same thing happened with two different contractors. 

If either one had asked me to help them to figure a job because they were unsure, I would have gladly helped them. When I was starting in business, I had several friends who I asked for help with my estimates. They helped me.  Even if they were figuring the job themselves. Because I was up front with them, they were honest with me. Many times, those same guys pitched in to work with me on a job they had lost to my estimate. Sometimes it worked the other way around just because we were always up front with each other.
Tinker