Need help - boring 35mm hinge cup holes and my 1010 keeps walking

[Mini Me]

I still can’t quite believe how over-complicated folks are making this, or how anyone can possibly think that it’s a good idea to use a Forstner bit (250-500rpm) in a router. I’ve installed 250+ kitchens with an average (say) of 40 holes per installation = 10,000 x 35mm hinge holes drilled to perfection using a slow-setting drill plus a 35mm Forstner. Goofing around with routers, fancy jigs, rails, clamps etc. is making the most basic job of drilling a hole very difficult and time-consuming for yourself. It’s a sledgehammer to crack open a walnut.

Just my 2 cents.

I totally agree, two lines and a Forstener bit does the job.

 

[Toolpig]

Hey all! Making a bunch of kitchen cabinet doors with Blum hinges, and I can't keep my 1010 from walking as I'm boring the hole. The result is a hinge cup hole that sort of drifts off to one side rather than go perfectly straight down. Is the 1010 just the wrong router for this? Should I be using the 1400 or 2200? Would that even make a difference? Or should I really be using something like a drill press?

Why are you using a drill bit in a router?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[Packard]

I still can’t quite believe how over-complicated folks are making this, or how anyone can possibly think that it’s a good idea to use a Forstner bit (250-500rpm) in a router. I’ve installed 250+ kitchens with an average (say) of 40 holes per installation = 10,000 x 35mm hinge holes drilled to perfection using a slow-setting drill plus a 35mm Forstner. Goofing around with routers, fancy jigs, rails, clamps etc. is making the most basic job of drilling a hole very difficult and time-consuming for yourself. It’s a sledgehammer to crack open a walnut.

Just my 2 cents.

I totally agree, two lines and a Forstener bit does the job.

If you are making one or two doors, then I agree.

But jigs improve repeatability, and as a result, they improve quality. They improve productivity and reduce the human factor that is frequently the source of quality issues on any task that requires repeated actions.

I will guarantee that “two lines and a forstner bit” will result in far more dimensional variation than the same operation using a well-designed jig.

I even make templates for dowel placement when I’m making several identical joints.  It is faster, more consistent, and less stressful that attempting to make identical measurements with accuracy over and over.

I don’t think I’ve ever read a scholarly article that promoted not using jigs, templates and fixtures.

 

[squall_line]

Hey all! Making a bunch of kitchen cabinet doors with Blum hinges, and I can't keep my 1010 from walking as I'm boring the hole. The result is a hinge cup hole that sort of drifts off to one side rather than go perfectly straight down. Is the 1010 just the wrong router for this? Should I be using the 1400 or 2200? Would that even make a difference? Or should I really be using something like a drill press?

Why are you using a drill bit in a router?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Because that's how Festool designed it to be used.
(jump to 43:45 if the video doesn't start there)

 

[Cheese]

As I mentioned already, just use a drill press and some hold downs. Sheesh...this router thing spinning a 35 mm bit at 10,000 rpm is goofy. The recommended speed for a conventionally designed 35 mm Forstner bit is 1200 rpm in hardwood.

I'll give you that the Festool bit is designed to cut at a faster speed, and they've done a heck of a job tweaking the geometry so that it cuts and doesn't burn the wood or anneals the router bit so that it turns into rubber, but this really is a one pony show. Use this method if your on-site and up a creek, otherwise just use a drill press.

 

[bwehman]

im sure this was already mentioned but you should control the routers speed and feed sounds to me like your bit is spinning to fast and your feeding the bit to quickly, dont force it let the router do the work

I had the speed set on 3. Is that too fast?

 

[bwehman]

Hey all! Making a bunch of kitchen cabinet doors with Blum hinges, and I can't keep my 1010 from walking as I'm boring the hole. The result is a hinge cup hole that sort of drifts off to one side rather than go perfectly straight down. Is the 1010 just the wrong router for this? Should I be using the 1400 or 2200? Would that even make a difference? Or should I really be using something like a drill press?

Why are you using a drill bit in a router?

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Festool 491077 is a router bit.

 

[bwehman]

I still can’t quite believe how over-complicated folks are making this, or how anyone can possibly think that it’s a good idea to use a Forstner bit (250-500rpm) in a router. I’ve installed 250+ kitchens with an average (say) of 40 holes per installation = 10,000 x 35mm hinge holes drilled to perfection using a slow-setting drill plus a 35mm Forstner. Goofing around with routers, fancy jigs, rails, clamps etc. is making the most basic job of drilling a hole very difficult and time-consuming for yourself. It’s a sledgehammer to crack open a walnut.

Just my 2 cents.

I apologize for breathing and overall being alive in general.

 

[Cheese]

I apologize for breathing and overall being alive in general.

Hmmm...just cut woodbutcherbower some slack. He comes from the perspective of I've done this thing 100 times for the last 100 years and it always seems to work ...what's wrong with that?

I come from the perspective of doing this thing 50 times for the last 50 years and it always seems to work...what's wrong with that?

We can all learn from this.  [smile]

 

[woodbutcherbower]

I apologize for breathing and overall being alive in general.

I’m sorry that I’ve offended you - that obviously wasn’t my intention. The FOG is populated largely by hobbyists, but with a scattering of long- term professionals thrown into the mix - professionals who’ve been on the tools for decades and who have tried everything. We never stop learning though, and I can think of several tool ideas I’ve picked up on here and which I now utilise on a daily basis. When a guy writes a post about something he’s clearly struggling with, it’s often the professionals who chime in with their experience and advice. We give our time freely in an effort to help out. But occasionally the OP will already have decided how he’s going to do something, and posts looking for any possible justification, irrespective of whether it’s the right way or not. You’re obviously free to either accept or reject the advice of others - but please don’t get upset when the opinions of others don’t align with your own. Life’s too short.

I hope you get fixed up with a solution.

Kevin

 

[bobtskutter]

[member=60792]bwehman[/member] , you appear to have the LR32 router sled, holy rail and the 35mm festool router drill.  Do you have the full LR32 set?

If you do it will also have the set back stops so you can position the cutter at 37mm back from the edge and a couple of screw clamps to hold the rail in place.

Your door construction appears to use a domino to fill-in the grove which would be visible in the door stile where it meets the rail.  If you've picked that up from Sedgetool, he also has some videos about using the LR32 system - might be worth a look.

[member=75780]woodbutcherbower[/member] thank you for the table with rpms and forstner drill diameter.  I struggle to use forstner drills, probably because I set the drill on max speed thinking "more power" is best.

regards
Bob

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[member=76043]bobtskutter[/member] You’re most welcome. Use a drill running at screwdriver speed and you’ll be golden.

Kevin

 

[Mini Me]

I still can’t quite believe how over-complicated folks are making this, or how anyone can possibly think that it’s a good idea to use a Forstner bit (250-500rpm) in a router. I’ve installed 250+ kitchens with an average (say) of 40 holes per installation = 10,000 x 35mm hinge holes drilled to perfection using a slow-setting drill plus a 35mm Forstner. Goofing around with routers, fancy jigs, rails, clamps etc. is making the most basic job of drilling a hole very difficult and time-consuming for yourself. It’s a sledgehammer to crack open a walnut.

Just my 2 cents.

I totally agree, two lines and a Forstener bit does the job.

If you are making one or two doors, then I agree.

But jigs improve repeatability, and as a result, they improve quality. They improve productivity and reduce the human factor that is frequently the source of quality issues on any task that requires repeated actions.

I will guarantee that “two lines and a forstner bit” will result in far more dimensional variation than the same operation using a well-designed jig.

I even make templates for dowel placement when I’m making several identical joints.  It is faster, more consistent, and less stressful that attempting to make identical measurements with accuracy over and over.

I don’t think I’ve ever read a scholarly article that promoted not using jigs, templates and fixtures.

The doors always fit so the variation can't be too bad. There are also adjustments in the hinge to allow the door gaps to be set. 

 

[mino]

I still can’t quite believe how over-complicated folks are making this, or how anyone can possibly think that it’s a good idea to use a Forstner bit (250-500rpm) in a router. I’ve installed 250+ kitchens with an average (say) of 40 holes per installation = 10,000 x 35mm hinge holes drilled to perfection using a slow-setting drill plus a 35mm Forstner. Goofing around with routers, fancy jigs, rails, clamps etc. is making the most basic job of drilling a hole very difficult and time-consuming for yourself. It’s a sledgehammer to crack open a walnut.

Just my 2 cents.

That 35mm router bit works very well and is convenient when used appropriately:
- with the LR32 rail, clamped and stabilised by the second hand
- for hard materials, knots, MDF and, especially, laminated chipboard
- for scenarios where the door/carcass is big and it is impractical to move the stock to the (sometimes non-existing) drill press
- for uses where the hole needs to be partially exposed and the edges must be sharp/precise

I agree, when making wooden, plywood or MDF stuff, a quality Forstner in a press is the efficient way to go.

That said, one can not match a stable 10k rpm sharp bit in what it can do by a 300 rpm Forstner. No matter how good. The router bit is the more universal tool. If an overkill a lot of times. There is a reason industrial applications go for router style speeds in automated CNCs. Makes way less demand on material quality.

Then there are a LOT of folks which lack an adequate drill press and/or a way/space to get big stock to the one they have. Having any table (not even MFT) an LR32 rail, an OF1010 on LR32 plate, TS55, one (orignal) blade and two bits - 5mm and 35mm. All one needs if making a simple cabinet. So replacing the need for a drill press and/or a dedicated Kreg jig with just a single router bit is not all that bad.

IMO there is no need to pretend like a drill press, a Kreg jig, etc. are *required* to get this work done compared to just the 35mm bit. Or eve a goio Forstner and a steadfy hand if wood is used ..

Each tool has its uses.

 

[Packard]

I still can’t quite believe how over-complicated folks are making this, or how anyone can possibly think that it’s a good idea to use a Forstner bit (250-500rpm) in a router. I’ve installed 250+ kitchens with an average (say) of 40 holes per installation = 10,000 x 35mm hinge holes drilled to perfection using a slow-setting drill plus a 35mm Forstner. Goofing around with routers, fancy jigs, rails, clamps etc. is making the most basic job of drilling a hole very difficult and time-consuming for yourself. It’s a sledgehammer to crack open a walnut.

Just my 2 cents.

I totally agree, two lines and a Forstener bit does the job.

If you are making one or two doors, then I agree.

But jigs improve repeatability, and as a result, they improve quality. They improve productivity and reduce the human factor that is frequently the source of quality issues on any task that requires repeated actions.

I will guarantee that “two lines and a forstner bit” will result in far more dimensional variation than the same operation using a well-designed jig.

I even make templates for dowel placement when I’m making several identical joints.  It is faster, more consistent, and less stressful that attempting to make identical measurements with accuracy over and over.

I don’t think I’ve ever read a scholarly article that promoted not using jigs, templates and fixtures.

The doors always fit so the variation can't be too bad. There are also adjustments in the hinge to allow the door gaps to be set.

The adjustability is the primary reason I use Blum hinges.  But, even if I was not going to invest in a $35.00 Kreg jig, or a $300.00 Blum jig, I would make a marking template to make marking more reliable.

I would take a small square of 1/4” plywood and attach a 3/4” thick piece at one edge.  Then I would very carefully mark the center for each of the three holes.  I would drill a small hole just large enough to allow my awl to make a mark on the underlying stile.

I would draw a centerline for the hole for the 35mm cup across the entire width of the template.  I would drill a 1/4” diameter hole in the middle of the template allowing me a window to see the marking on the stile.

Each time I need to mount a hinge, I would grab the template, slide it along the stile until the line shows up in my “window”.  I then would hold it in place and grab my awl and make the three marks. 

This is something that I would make and keep with the hinge inventory.  I would do this if I had 4 or more doors to do.  I might even do it for two doors.  I’m a template guy.

Once you get in the habit of making templates, they seem easier and easier to make.  I keep small scraps of plywood, mdf, etc. around for that purpose.  A template can take as little as 5 minutes.  In my mind, there is a clear ROI for these simple templates.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I apologize for breathing and overall being alive in general.

Hmmm...just cut woodbutcherbower some slack. He comes from the perspective of I've done this thing 100 times for the last 100 years and it always seems to work ...what's wrong with that?

I come from the perspective of doing this thing 50 times for the last 50 years and it always seems to work...what's wrong with that?

We can all learn from this.  [smile]

I come at this somewhat below both, but in a commercial shop where speed is king. In the shop where I work, we would never do this by "hand". An industrial machine with flip stops, dust collection, and a press for the hinge itself is the way to go. We use the 8mm plug style hinges most of the time.
This is not "regular guy stuff" though.
In general, with questions like this, I try to help while keeping on the same track.....unless it's really bad. (Assuming nothing beyond what has been said)
You can see it in this thread, where I had no idea that the OP had an LR32 plate.

 

[Packard]

I like using templates.  I wanted to see what a template would look like, and how long it would take to make, if I did not already have a hinge drilling jig.

Here is the finished template.  I used a 3-1/2” x 4-1/2” x 1/4” piece of plywood and glued and pinned a narrow strip of 3/4” MDF.

I transferred the locations for the centers of the three holes (35mm and two pilot holes).  The awl points to the 35mm center.

The holes are 3/32” which by trial and error was the best fit for my awl.

I made sure everything was square so that I could use either side of the template as a saddle square to mark the location.

And finally, I drilled a 3/8” hole to use as an observation window to align the template with the layout line.

I had estimated about 15 minutes to make this template, but it ended up being closer to 20 minutes as I tweaked the edges so they could be used as a saddle square.

Confession:  My time savings cheat was that I was able to transfer the hole locations from my Blum jig without resorting to the use of any measuring tools.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=74278]Packard[/member] I do too. Templates make for easy repeating, especially when you get your stuff together and actually write the particulars on the template. I don't know how many I made back in the day with nothing, then had to try to remember what is was for? and how it works?
It only takes a few dozen times to get past that  [big grin]
I do it now, with all of them. I just have too many routers/bits/bushings/etc to guess. It's nice to just pick one up and go.
Some are specific to my own stuff, but I often make them for others to use too.

 

[Packard]

My problem is, if it is something I’m not using regularly, i misplace, lose, or dispose of the templates— mostly it’s because they are so easy to make and they basically are all made from scrap.

Somewhere, early in a new project, I will find myself repeating a process.  Then I ask myself, “Does it pay to make a template?”

I think most people don’t ask that question.  If they did, a lot more templates would be made.

I prefer mitered rails and stiles for my cabinet doors.  So each miter needs 2 dowels.  I mark the corners and label them so the dowels will align.  Several years ago, I made a marking template for the placement of the dowels.  Now every miter is interchangeable with all the rest.

Despite that uniformity, I still label the miters “A-A”, “B-B”, etc.  But I’ve checked. All the miters are interchangeable, and the marking process is quicker too.

 

[xedos]

Not so simple with the Blum jig.  The jig captures the chips in the hollow of its body.  When you unclamp the jig, you have to have the vacuum pointed to capture the chips as you are removing the jig. 

Then you have to turn the jig upside down and use the vacuum to empty out the body of the jig.  Some of the chips get wedged in and at the end of the session, I use a school pencil to dislodge those chips.  It is the one annoyance I have with the Blum jig.

It's almost that simple ...............see response #29 from yesterday.

You drill a hole in the back of the ecojig and jamb the hose into it.  Job done.