Need help from experts about efficient sanding

[Julie]

I have finally progressed to the point where instead of unfinished garage cabinets I am going to try using shellac on some for in the house. I am specifically interested in how experts sand all of the drawer frame parts. In the past I just used a sanding block to break the edges to prevent splinters.

As part of my foray into finishing, I purchased an ETS 125 which eliminates the sanding dust that always made me hate sanding.
I used it on the parts for one drawer and only using the 120 grit paper that came with the sander. It took me more time and effort than I believe is reasonable. This is what I have to look forward to.

Thanks for any suggestions.

 

[MikeGE]

Based on my experience, I think you are asking too much from the P120 discs.  When I'm sanding similar components, I make one pass on each surface starting with P80, followed by P100, P120, and P150.

 

[Packard]

I sand milled poplar boards prior to finishing.  It almost never even reaches the point where I feel the need for a sander.  I just give it a few swipes with a block sander. 

Where I have sawn the lumber, it will require some sanding, but really, never the flat surfaces or factory milled edges. 

I do break the edges with a block sander.

I apply via wipe-on SealCoat.  It is very fast to apply, dries in minutes with that light application, and never leaves any runs.  No clean-up either.  I just toss the rags. 

I only spray water-based finishes (Benjamin Moore’s Advance).  The SealCoat application prevents the water-based finishes from raising the grain, saving me hours of sanding.

But drawers I simply finish with shellac.  I’ve tried other finishes, but the shellac applies quickly and easily with a rag, and there is no lingering odor (which can last a long time in a closed drawer). 

 

[Julie]

I don't think I was clear enough about what I was asking.
I do understand that progressing through the grits is required.

What I want to know is if anyone has an efficient way to sand so many parts. I did one piece, first sanding the front, then the back, then each of the four edges and then broke all the corners. For all but the front and back I needed to hold the part by hand. That was with one grit. I now need to repeat that for multiple grits and for dozens of drawer frame parts. Based on the way I did one pass of one part it looks like it will take many many hours to finish.

 

[4nthony]

What I want to know is if anyone has an efficient way to sand so many parts.

For the faces, lay your parts on the bench as if you were assembling a panel, snug them up with some dogs and a wedge, then sand the surface. Flip and repeat. Depending on the size of your bench, you should be able to sand at least 6-8 parts at once, if not more. Don't clamp them so tight that they cup, but just firm enough to hold them flat and not move.

For the edges, line them up flat on your bench, clamp them with a couple f-style clamps, and sand all the exposed edges at once. You should be able to do 6+ edges at once.

To break the edges, you'll probably need to manually hit each one with a sanding block or pass them through a small round over bit on the router table.

As for the dogs and wedges, similar to what this guy does (start around 3:30):


I'm by no means an expert but I hope this helps!

 

[Packard]

Unless you are using rough-sawn lumber, the boards, if faced 4 sides, should be almost ready for paint.  A light sanding with 220 grit should do it. 

The lumber I get is smooth to the hand.  Only the cedar is rough on one face only.  The edges and other face are smooth.

I really don’t understand why this is an issue.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Another thing you can try, as crazy as it sounds, is to mount the sander upside-down and bring the parts to it. This can be much faster, since you are not clamping each individual part. Woodpeckers makes a fixture like this for about $80 (IIRC) As an alternative, there is a Youtuber named Chris, channel called "A glimpse inside" who makes a CNC cut plywood version of the same thing. He designed it for this exact purpose. He had a ton of parts to sand to fulfill orders for his products.

 

[Packard]

For boards up to 6” wide, a bench top sander works well.  I have one.  I cannot say that I use it often though.  It is good for cleaning up dovetails that stand proud of the surface.

But if your faced lumber is not nearly smooth enough to paint over as it comes from the yard, then choose a different vendor.

Even Home Depot and Lowes’ lumber meets that standard.  A few quick strokes with a block sander is all I need for paint.  Clear coats require a bit more.

I wipe on shellac, so the surface needs to be smooth enough not to snag the cotton fabric.  So it is smooth enough to meet most standards.

I like hand sanding.  It makes me feel like a craftsman that cares.  But still, I don’t sand more than needed.

Stationary oscillating sander (I have the Rigid brand version from Home Depot):

https://www.northerntool.com/products/wen-oscillatinghttps://www.northerntool.com/produc...ax-speed-2000-opm-amps-3-5-model-6524-5801632

 

[guybo]

Based on the way I did one pass of one part it looks like it will take many many hours to finish.

Hi, thats the thing about sandpaper class, you are only scratching the surface [big grin]

 

[Cheese]

Julie, those items appear to be pretty smooth already, do you really need to start with 120 grit? Try starting with some 180 and see how you like the finish, that alone would eliminate 50% of your sanding steps.

Also, an ETS 125 is a finish sander with a small diameter orbit, typically used for sanding between coats for the final finish application. I use the ETS 125 for 220 grit and smaller sanding grits and use a ETS EC 125 for 120 and greater grit sizes because of its more aggressive behavior.

Another alternative, here are some maple drawer boxes that I kissed with 220 grit on an ETS 125 and then top coated with some Surfix oil and it was easy and fast. It's a nice smooth/protected finish and it's easy.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

 

[PaulMarcel]

Late on this thread but okay...

First, I'm having bad flashbacks to the past couple weeks of building 38 drawers/trays for my kitchen; I see 28 in your stack -shudder-

Since they are decent-grade ply, you should be able to just hit them with 180. The furniture-grade stuff I get here really only needs that if anything. Like CRG said, putting the sander in a stand can make it easier since you'll just be sliding the stock across the sander by hand. I used a vacuum clamp, but both are just nice-to-haves.

If boards are skating on the bench while sanding, just plop a yoga mat down and they'll stop skating.

I have a block of MDF with 180 glued to it that I use to break the edges. That's usually enough. I'm sure you know, but break them by sanding down/diagonally from the face side off the edge. I sometimes forget and do it like hardwood sliding sideways and invariably it catches a long sliver.

It looks like you are assembling them with pocket holes. If so, consider finishing the sides before assembly. Much easier to do than digging into corners. A simple strip of tape over the edge where you'll apply glue is sufficient and it doesn't (shouldn't!) need to be exactly on the glue-line edge: inset it a bit makes it faster to apply and better in that the finish goes under the mating piece.

Sorry too many words haha

 

[woodferret]

Previously mentioned gang-sanding is your friend.  I'd not bother layout by drawer, but rather by type.  Easier to keep track of.  Edges just bundle all of same sizes together, lightly clamp and run the sander across the wider widths - so much easier.

 

[Packard]

I use pocket holes for face frames, but for little else.  For drawer backs they seem fine.  For the front of the drawer boxes, I worry about all the tugging of the drawer (though modern slides mitigate that issue).

I would consider putting in a couple of 1/4” or smaller dowels per front joint as through dowels after assembly.  They will add substantially to the strength.  No jigs really needed. 

Most supermarkets sell bamboo skewers in 3mm and 5mm diameters.  They make excellent dowels for an application like this.  Drill.  Glue.  Insert.  Trim. Sand.  It would take just a few minutes per box.  I think the exposed dowel ends look fine.  It is much faster than blind doweling. 

I settled on wipe on shellac (Sealcoat) for drawers.  It dries really fast, there is no cleanup (I just toss the used rag) and no residual odors.  A closed drawer will, when opened, present you with the finish’s odor for many months—as long as a year.  I suppose leaving the drawers open overnight for a few months would hurry this process alone. 

But shellac does not have any residual odor. And no sanding is required to refresh the finish if you are inclined to do so.  Just wipe on an additional coat.  I never see the need too except for a rare drawer bottom that gets abbraided by the contents.  But the next coat partially dissolves the earlier one and bonds perfectly.  No sanding required. 

 

[Julie]

Thanks for all the great comments!

One of the suggestions is what what I tried last night.

It took about 30 minutes to sand both faces with 3 grits; 180 was fine enough for my use. I am using the light pencil mark technique to develop a good sanding speed.

I am using Baltic birch, so I will try just 180 for the next batch and see how that works.

I am planning to batch the edges the same way.

(This is showing the back side of the backs and some of the wood is reused from a previous project. That is why there are partial pocket holes and other flaws.)

 

[Julie]

Festool sanders are just magic!
I still don't like sanding, but being able to spend an hour sanding and then walk into the house without leaving a trail of sanding dust is fantastic. I don't even feel the need to wear a mask when sanding.

Using 3 grits was a learning experience. I have switched to just sanding with 180 and find that I cannot feel the difference, and it saves a lot of time. Thanks [member=44099]Cheese[/member]!

[member=3513]PaulMarcel[/member] This is the second batch of drawers. The previous batch was 18. I made my first set of cabinets a couple years ago. I am guessing that my total is probably getting close to 100 drawers. Some of those drawers are really tray drawers for Systainers and L-Boxxes.

[member=74278]Packard[/member]  Regarding pocket holes, I have been using pocket holes for cabinets and drawers for a couple years not. I have not had any problems. To date, I have not even used glue with the pocket holes. Some of my drawers are very heavy, containing hardware. I am glad that I did not use glue in the past because my first cabinet was too tall, too wide and too deep and I hated it. It was disassembled and the wood reused in newer cabinets. I also made the boxes for the first cabinets from Home Depot pre-finished plywood. I have since switched to Baltic birch for boxes and drawers and 5mm Luan for the drawer bottoms. I do plan to start glueing now that I have settled on a standard size cabinet for all general storage projects. As for the strength of glue, I have seen many tests of glue strength. PVA glue is always stronger than the wood so I cannot see any reason why glue with pocket holes should need any extra reinforcement.

I will post a photo of an assembled cabinet later.
I just want to mention that my design is based on my specific needs and not what I have seen as standard for cabinet making. I wanted to minimize material and assembly steps.

My cabinets are a single box with no frames or covering, so I use pocket holes on the inside with very careful setting of the hole depth and position to get max strength without protruding screws. For my drawers, the front of the box is the face of the drawer so that I do not need that extra piece of wood. This means that my pocket holes are on the outside of the drawer sides. I do not care if they show when the drawers are open. I used 1/2 BB ply for drawer bottoms initially. I realized that was overkill and switched to 5mm ply in grooves and that is strong enough for a full 100# load.

 

[Packard]

Speaking of sanding dust, I have always worn eye protection while using any machine tools, including palm sanders.

However, I never saw the need to do so when using a hand block sander.

This Friday evening I got something in my eye and it stubbornly dug in its heels and resisted all efforts to dislodge it.

So, since it did not bother me when I closed my eyes, nor when I opened them, I figured that my tears would wash it away.  They did not.

So, finally in Saturday after lunch I went to the walk-in emergency clinic.  Two hours later, I left the clinic.  The doctor found, using a black light and dye drops and a magnifier a, “tiny, tiny spec of something”.

I’m pretty sure the tiny, tiny spec of something was some tiny tiny saw dust.

I got a prescription for eye drop antibiotics which I used for two days.  Happy to announce my eyesight is fine.  I will use eye protection when I hand sand going forward.  No damage, but a significant inconvenience.

 

[Packard]

Festool sanders are just magic!
I still don't like sanding, but being able to spend an hour sanding and then walk into the house without leaving a trail of sanding dust is fantastic. I don't even feel the need to wear a mask when sanding.

Using 3 grits was a learning experience. I have switched to just sanding with 180 and find that I cannot feel the difference, and it saves a lot of time. Thanks [member=44099]Cheese[/member]!

[member=3513]PaulMarcel[/member] This is the second batch of drawers. The previous batch was 18. I made my first set of cabinets a couple years ago. I am guessing that my total is probably getting close to 100 drawers. Some of those drawers are really tray drawers for Systainers and L-Boxxes.

[member=74278]Packard[/member]  Regarding pocket holes, I have been using pocket holes for cabinets and drawers for a couple years not. I have not had any problems. To date, I have not even used glue with the pocket holes. Some of my drawers are very heavy, containing hardware. I am glad that I did not use glue in the past because my first cabinet was too tall, too wide and too deep and I hated it. It was disassembled and the wood reused in newer cabinets. I also made the boxes for the first cabinets from Home Depot pre-finished plywood. I have since switched to Baltic birch for boxes and drawers and 5mm Luan for the drawer bottoms. I do plan to start glueing now that I have settled on a standard size cabinet for all general storage projects. As for the strength of glue, I have seen many tests of glue strength. PVA glue is always stronger than the wood so I cannot see any reason why glue with pocket holes should need any extra reinforcement.

I will post a photo of an assembled cabinet later.
I just want to mention that my design is based on my specific needs and not what I have seen as standard for cabinet making. I wanted to minimize material and assembly steps.

My cabinets are a single box with no frames or covering, so I use pocket holes on the inside with very careful setting of the hole depth and position to get max strength without protruding screws. For my drawers, the front of the box is the face of the drawer so that I do not need that extra piece of wood. This means that my pocket holes are on the outside of the drawer sides. I do not care if they show when the drawers are open. I used 1/2 BB ply for drawer bottoms initially. I realized that was overkill and switched to 5mm ply in grooves and that is strong enough for a full 100# load.

I would say, based on previous kitchen demo, that stapled joints yielded most easily, followed by pocket hole joints.

Surprisingly, a site built vanity, assembled using hammer driven nails only circa about 1953, fought valiantly against my efforts.  No glue, just nails.  Of all the cabinets I have demoed, I would say that, that nailed vanity resisted the most.  It was like Davy Crockett at the Alamo. (Of course Santa Anna and his army suffered more, but I love hyperbole).

 

[alltracman78]

Don't forget to change your paper when needed. As much as you hate to throw it away when it still seems good. And some paper sands faster than others.
The 3M xtract cubitron seems to work best for me (seems to cut faster than the Festool Granant). And with an interface pad more of the dust gets sucked up. That should go for any mesh paper though.

For the edges, line them up flat on your bench, clamp them with a couple f-style clamps, and sand all the exposed edges at once. You should be able to do 6+ edges at once.

This is such a time saver. And it helps to prevent rounding on thin parts.

As for the strength of glue, I have seen many tests of glue strength. PVA glue is always stronger than the wood so I cannot see any reason why glue with pocket holes should need any extra reinforcement.

It may have more to do with strengthening the wood around the glue. Carrying the grain through the joint and into the perpendicular grain so the perpendicular grain is less apt to separate.
I hope that makes sense?

 

[luvmytoolz]

Don't forget to change your paper when needed. As much as you hate to throw it away when it still seems good. And some paper sands faster than others.
The 3M xtract cubitron seems to work best for me (seems to cut faster than the Festool Granant). And with an interface pad more of the dust gets sucked up. That should go for any mesh paper though.

I bought some mixed packs of the Mirka Abranet to try, and initial thoughts are I'm very underwhelmed by it compared to 3M Cubitron Mesh and Granat Net. The 80g which I would have thought a powerhouse to remove material is a bit "meh", the higher grits also seem to peak early and then just burnish. I'm waiting on a Rotex to arrive so maybe they'll work better with that, but the higher 3M grits seem to outperfom the lower grit Abranet discs.

 

[smorgasbord]

As for the strength of glue, I have seen many tests of glue strength. PVA glue is always stronger than the wood so I cannot see any reason why glue with pocket holes should need any extra reinforcement.

A couple of years ago, this video blew up the woodworking interwebs:

What he found was that PVA glues are stronger than the lignum bonds holding wood fibers together. So yes, panel glue-ups will normally have the glue stronger than the wood, by 2X to 3X.

But, wood fibers along their length are much stronger than the PVA glue joints - like 2X-4X stronger than the glue joints that are 2-3X stronger than wood across its grain. So, in a joint where wood whose fibers run perpendicular, depending on the load, the wood is stronger than the glue.

Don't confuse glue strength in panel glue-ups with glue strength in joints.

BTW, what got everyone in a tizzy was the result that PVA glue works better on end grain than it does on long grain!

Don't believe it? Watch the video.