Need help with Drawer Face and Pull Install

[Dan Clark]

Hi. For the last (god-awful amount of time), I've been rebuilding our master bathroom.  Almost everything is done and there are no real challenges ahead, except for two - installing the drawer faces to the drawers and installing the drawer pulls.  And that's are giving me nightmares.

A little history... The original drawer faces were solid oak slabs.  They were very nice looking except they were badly warped.  So I had the cabinet maker (Scherr's cabinets: http://www.scherrs.com/) exchange them for the ones you see in the pics.  They look good and probably won't warp, but... 

The first issue is the drawers were drilled for the original drawer faces.  Scherr's uses a method involving a screw in a big hole that is used to temporarily hold the faces until you get them aligned.  And then you install a final screw in a small hole.  You can see these holes in the close up of the drawer.  The problem is that there is no longer any "meat" in the drawer face into which you mount a screw.    So, the alignment screws only partially support the drawer face, with the drawer pull screws providing the main holding support for the drawer face to the drawer carcase. 

And this leads to the second issue - aligning the drawer pull screws so that they are square to the drawer face.  Since the bottom of the drawer pull is very small, the drawer-pull screw hold needs to be VERY square to the drawer face.  And, since the center of the drawer face is inset, normal alignment jigs won't work because of parallax errors. 

Obviously one way to handle this is to throw the drawers and drawer faces on my very accurate drill press.  Except of course, I don't have an accurate drill press.  Or any drill press at all, for that matter!    :'(

Except for buying an accurate drill press to drill 18 holes, how can this problem be solved?  What's the best way to accurate install the drawer fronts and drawer pulls?

I would very much appreciate any help to solve this dilemma.

Thanks and regards,

Dan.

 

[builderbob]

Hey Dan!

My first question is, are the recessed panels reversed raised or just 1/4"?  If they're reverse raised, my point is moot...if they're only 1/4" you need to make sure that you place material between the rear of the panel and the face of the drawer box so that you can properly tighten pulls.

Second, you can drill a 3/16" or 5mm hole for that style of pull and have decent play. I've installed plenty of that style and my jig uses a 5mm bit. I would say your method of layout seems reasonable...I used to install lots of hardware without jigs, only by layout and had no issues whatsoever.

Last, as far as drawer face to drawer box attachment, it looks like you have the ability to grab some meat around the perimeter of the drawer face. Is it possible to drill 5/16"-3/8" holes in the drawer box and use washer head screws like these?
http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/20...d-Washer-Head-Phillips-Drive-Zinc-100-pc.aspx

Once these are installed, you can adjust the drawers in whichever direction necessary!

Please keep us informed how this pans out!

Bob

 

[tjbnwi]

Set the drawer fronts with 3M mounting tape. Easy to do, place some tape on the drawer box, align the front and press in place. If you'rehappy with the alignment do it again. You can now open the drawer and install the screws securing the front.

As Bob said, drilling the pull holes is not that big of a deal. Well within your abilities. Make a jig if you don't have one.

Tom

 

[semenza]

By no "meat" do you mean that the panel field of the new front is  not thick enough to put the washer head screw  into?

If thats the case you could make new big holes in the box front , further out in the frame portion. Do your alignment, put the securing screws in (which could also be the pull screws), then back off the washer heads until just snug to allow for wood  movement.

Are the face / front panels flush with the frame on the backside?  If so you could mark your pull locations more easily from the back, drill with a much smaller bit than needed.  After you install, and align  the fronts redrill the  pull holes with the correct size bit right through the box, put the pull on and it secures the whole deal in place.

Seth

 

[mastercabman]

Dan
most cabinets that i deal with that has a drawer front like that,uses small screws going in a slight angle at the corner of inside the box.
You can also try to drive a couple screws from under the box.(where you mount the release catches for your glides).
As far as hardware drilling jig,you can use a 1/8" 3/16" thick material and put it in the recess part of your drawer front.
But i never had any problem using my jig just by itself.
I would install the pulls first and them secure the front once they are adjusted.
Also they do make angle brackets for this type of application
It mounts on the side of your drawer box and back of drawers front.It also comes with a cover that you just slide in once it secured and adjusted.Try Mcfeely or fastcap.I think it's called kolbe korner but the one i have seen has a cover for it.

 

[barnowl]

Ignore the existing holes in the drawer boxes for the time being.

Place your drawer fronts on the boxes using the appropriate shims/blocks from the floor/counter-top and spacers/playing cards/etc between.

In essence, you are stacking them, making sure to align the left and right edges.

Once they are perfect, take a digital picture (just in case). Disassemble your stack, marking your shims as you go, for re-installation.

Now, on the drawer box fronts, put a piece of carpet tape on each side of the front. It's very thin, and very strong.

Re-assemble your stack of drawer faces using your catalogued shims. The drawer faces will adhere to the carpet tape.

Now, as previously suggested, fasten the drawer fronts to the boxes with screws from the inside.

You maybe able to use the existing holes, maybe not. If not, plug them, or leave them.

When all else is done, mount your handles.

 

[Dan Clark]

Gentlemen (Ladies?),

Many thanks for the great ideas!  I read through all of this and am amazed that there are so many ways of solving this issue.  Now the hard work - picking the best one(s)!!!    [big grin]  I'm going to study these, and then answer the questions asked and ask a few more myself.  Stay tuned for the next chapter of "Dan's Drama - one man's struggle with the perils of adult remodeling" (he says in his deep announcers voice)!    [big grin] [big grin]

Thanks,

Dan.

 

[waynelang2001]

I dont really know if this will be any help but I have been using a new method to fit drawer fronts. First I drills the holes for the handle and use those holes to screw the drawer front to the drawer box. then attach the draw front from the inside with screws. Now you can take the drawer front off, add the handle and just screw the drawer front back on.

 

[builderbob]

I dont really know if this will be any help but I have been using a new method to fit drawer fronts. First I drills the holes for the handle and use those holes to screw the drawer front to the drawer box. then attach the draw front from the inside with screws. Now you can take the drawer front off, add the handle and just screw the drawer front back on.

I saw this on one of the Marc Sommerfeld videos...seemed like a decent approach!

Bob

 

[waynelang2001]

I dont really know if this will be any help but I have been using a new method to fit drawer fronts. First I drills the holes for the handle and use those holes to screw the drawer front to the drawer box. then attach the draw front from the inside with screws. Now you can take the drawer front off, add the handle and just screw the drawer front back on.

I saw this on one of the Marc Sommerfeld videos...seemed like a decent approach!

Bob

And here i thought i was the first It sure does save time because the way i used to do it was clamp the drawer front to the drawer box which meant removing the top drawer. Now i can screw all the drawer fronts on in one go.

 

[mastercabman]

I dont really know if this will be any help but I have been using a new method to fit drawer fronts. First I drills the holes for the handle and use those holes to screw the drawer front to the drawer box. then attach the draw front from the inside with screws. Now you can take the drawer front off, add the handle and just screw the drawer front back on.

You don't need to remove the front.just keep it on and drill thru the box and use longer screws.

 

[waynelang2001]

I dont really know if this will be any help but I have been using a new method to fit drawer fronts. First I drills the holes for the handle and use those holes to screw the drawer front to the drawer box. then attach the draw front from the inside with screws. Now you can take the drawer front off, add the handle and just screw the drawer front back on.

You don't need to remove the front.just keep it on and drill thru the box and use longer screws.

Thats what i do but i dont know if that would work for the OP. How thin is the panel in the drawer fronts ??? You might end up damaging the panel if it is thin and you tighten the screws to much.

 

[junk731]

Dan the stiles on your your drawers are wide enough to use the Blum system for installing drawer fronts. No muss or fuss and you will have adjustability.

John

 

[Dan Clark]

Gentlemen,

There's nothing like some feedback to clarify your thoughts.   Many thanks to all of you for the great ideas and feedback.  To clarify the issues and add some questions (in red):

Aligning the drawer faces - This is the first issue.  Based on your feedback, it looks like the two best options would either a) use a Kolbe Korner as MasterCabMan suggests for alignment use, b) use the blum drawer front adjuster as John suggests, or c) use the large holes in the drawer box for alignment as Bob and Seth suggest.

I'd like to try option "a" but I can't find any Kolbe Korners locally.   Option "b" is enticing, but Rocklers is only one place locally that has these Blum adjusters and it's a bit of a hassle getting there.   So it looks like option "c" is the best for me - using screws for alignment.   

Using the current large holes for alignment should work well except for the top drawers.   To answer Bob's question, all of the drawers are reverse raised.  So the back of the drawer front is flush with the front of the drawer box.
 
It turns out that I have the exact same screws that Bob suggests, so using the existing large holes for the bottom two drawers should be easy.   For the top drawer, (as Bob and Seth suggested) I'll drill two additional holes farther out towards the edges.   Problem solved.

Permanently attaching the drawer faces - Given that there's not much meat in the drawer fronts except for the stiles, the idea of drilling extra holes in the drawer box out towards the stiles seems like a great solution for permanently attaching the drawer faces.   For the lower two drawers, I'll drill "attachment" holes.   For the top drawer, is it OK to simply use the alignment holes to permanently attach the front?  

Attaching the drawer pulls - Since other screws will permanently attach the drawer fronts, this means that the drawer pull screws' job is limited to attaching the pulls to the drawer face.   But I'm still worried about getting the pulls on nice, straight and perpendicular to the drawer face.

I especially like Seth's idea about drilling a very small hole from the back.   While I don't have a drill press, I have this gadget: http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=42322&cat=1,180,42311.   I'm a bit nervous about using it, but by drilling through the flush back, it should make a good perpendicular hole.   For accurate drill placement, I can use a spare nail for a center punch, but would it be better to use something like this Veritas Optical Center Punch: http://www.leevalley.com/us/wood/page.aspx?p=42322&cat=1,180,42311 ?   Is there a better way?  (Enquiring minds definitely want to know!)

Again, thanks for the help.  I'd appreciate any final guidance so I can install the drawer fronts and pulls this weekend.

Best regards,

Dan.

 

[Dan Clark]

Hi.  I forgot to add this last night.  Here's a closeup showing the drawer and the back side of the drawer front.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[harry_]

Dan,

Honestly I think you need to step back from this for a minute or two, seems like you are way over thinking it.

 

[Dan Clark]

Dan,

Honestly I think you need to step back from this for a minute or two, seems like you are way over thinking it.

Harry,

You wouldn't be the first person to accuse me of that and probably won't be the last.  OTOH...

My projects tend do work out often than most peoples'.  I look for good solutions to problems no matter who thought of the idea.  In the last five years, I can give you dozens of examples of good results that were achieved by gathering good ideas and overthinking the process. 

For example, my wife wanted very large tile in the MBR shower.  By over thinking the project, I got the right tools and techniques for the project.  So... Having never installed a tile in my life, I installed 16 X 24 tiles on the shower walls - dead straight and level, with virtually no lippage. 

For the vanity drawer install, I decided that I didn't like the risk of a poorly drilled hole for the drawer fronts.  Since I wanted a drill press anyway, I bought a Porter Cable 15" drill press at Lowes this morning.  Not great quality, but it doesn't seem to have any runout and with a Woodpeckers drill press table, it should be a breeze to drill the drawer front holes accurately. 

The challenging question - what is dividing line between over thinking and failure to plan properly when a $5,000 vanity is at risk?  Hmmm???

Dan.

 

[ccmviking]

Dan,

    For 5 piece drawer fronts like that you are supposed to use "Kolbe" corners to attach them to the boxes.  HERE  Your other option is the go at the drawer front stiles at an angle from inside the drawer box.  This usually works but you can of course crack the stiles and it's also pretty damn hard to align the fronts well because the screws at an angle like to pull the front around on the box.

Chris... 

 

[harry_]

Dan,

Please understand that it was not my intent to 'bash' you and I generally agree with what you are saying. OTOH...

When I was a wee lad I was once told "if it seems like you are working too hard for the task at hand, you are probably doing it wrong. Take a step back and re-think it", and 99% of the time that statement has been true.

Then there is that pesky 1%.

I had merely taken the problem at hand as something I perceived as well below your skill set. Hence my suggestion for you to take a step back from it. I think that we all, from time to time, suffer from "[doh] moments" where we see a task as much more complicated than what it really is then go  [doh] when we realize just how simple the solution actually is.

I hope that I did not offend.

 

[mastercabman]

Dan,

Honestly I think you need to step back from this for a minute or two, seems like you are way over thinking it.

I also think that too.
When i drill for hardware,i use the "handle-it" euro jig.Keep your drill straight.(just watch for tear out on inside the box)
BTW,I do this a lot!!!!