Need some design input

[Sparky977]

I am designing a coffee table and end tables to build while other things are slow at the moment and I will hopefully be able to sell them.
I have the coffee table drawn up in Google Sketchup and I would like to get some input on a couple of design elements.
I am planning on building them out of oak, and finishing with a black lacquer.  The style, in my opinion, is a mix of Arts and Crafts and Modern.  I want it in oak so that the wood grain is textured and obvious.  The black lacquer will give the pieces a "Crate and Barrel" look which will hopefully help them sell.

So my questions are about the through-tenons, the stretcher boards, and the top chamfers.
Here is the first option, with through tenons only on the long side of the table and a simpler stretcher shelf:

Next is with false through tenons added to the ends.  I'm not sure if this works, because obviously, the tenons are only through from one direction.  I am wondering if its a design faux pas to add the false tenons.

And the next is because my wife thought it looked unbalanced with through tenons on both sides of the top, but not on the lower stretcher.

The last pic is of the top.  I'm not sure if it shows up correctly, but all the legs are chamfered an 1/8" and the perimeter boards are as well.  That leaves the center boards of the table inset an 1/8".

Is this a design problem, as it will want to collect dust more, or is it just a personal preference kind of thing?  I really like it right now, in my head, but I want some advice from those of you with more design experience than me. 

Just a note, I am already planning on making the legs thinner.  I posted this on Lumberjocks as well, and a few people mentioned they are disproportionate, and I agree.

Thanks for any advice you guys can give!

Sparky

 

[monte]

Sparky,

Ok..... Personally, I don't mean to ruffle you up more,

but....I would drop the wood top and switch it to 3/8" glass.

Streamline the legs as you mentioned.

Drop the faux tendons.

and keep the bottom rails.

......as to the chamfers - it's a nice detail,

don't worry about the dust,

the black lacquer is already causing a daily wipe.

Nice sketch-up!

Roger

 

[Sparky977]

Sparky,

Ok..... Personally, I don't mean to ruffle you up more,

but....I would drop the wood top and switch it to 3/8" glass.

Streamline the legs as you mentioned.

Drop the faux tendons.

and keep the bottom rails.

......as to the chamfers - it's a nice detail,

don't worry about the dust,

the black lacquer is already causing a daily wipe.

Nice sketch-up!

Roger

No problem.  I wouldn't have posted asking for advice if I was going to get ruffled about it. 
So just drop the faux tenons, or ALL the through tenons?

Oh, and I'm definitely going to think about a glass top in the center.  It would certainly keep the material cost a little lower too.

 

[Michael Kellough]

I'd loose the through tenons unless the legs get below 1.5".

I'm a big fan of chamfers but instead of the chamfers on the ends of the top frame I'd make the legs a little taller and or shrink the top frame and stretchers to butte squarely into the flats of the legs.

I like Roger's glass idea too but a beautiful pice of veneer laminated to a piece of ply would be nice too. I don't like the small boards so much but if the table will be perpetually covered with books and stuff like my tables it doesn't much matter.

 

[cflansbaum]

Sparky,

I'd keep the "faux tenons", but make them look like a design element,  not the ends of through tenons.  Make them out of a contrasting wood.

Not sure which size wood you're planning for the top, but "locking" everything together is going to cause some problems when that wood wants to move.  You will definitely need to change this. 

I personally don't like glass...

The chamfering is nice, but much harder to get to line up in reality then in sketchup. 

Whenever I do my designs in sketch-up, once I like a design, I go completely through it figuring out how I would build it and that usually changes my designs quite a bit!

nice use of sketch up!

Carl

 

[monte]

I'd loose the through tenons unless the legs get below 1.5".
I'm a big fan of chamfers but instead of the chamfers on the ends of the top frame I'd make the legs a little taller and or shrink the top frame and stretchers to butte squarely into the flats of the legs.
I like Roger's glass idea too but a beautiful pice of veneer laminated to a piece of ply would be nice too. I don't like the small boards so much but if the table will be perpetually covered with books and stuff like my tables it doesn't much matter.

Sparky,

As an alternative to the glass I like Micheal's use of a veneer,

but if you go that route..... depending on the veneer pattern,

I would consider something more closed grained than Oak.

(You might have too much visually going on, between the Oak and a figured/ lively veneer)

P.s. are you using the Oak because that is what you have in the shop?

Roger

 

[Sparky977]

I'd loose the through tenons unless the legs get below 1.5".
I'm a big fan of chamfers but instead of the chamfers on the ends of the top frame I'd make the legs a little taller and or shrink the top frame and stretchers to butte squarely into the flats of the legs.
I like Roger's glass idea too but a beautiful pice of veneer laminated to a piece of ply would be nice too. I don't like the small boards so much but if the table will be perpetually covered with books and stuff like my tables it doesn't much matter.

Sparky,

As an alternative to the glass I like Micheal's use of a veneer,

but if you go that route..... depending on the veneer pattern,

I would consider something more closed grained than Oak.

(You might have too much visually going on, between the Oak and a figured/ lively veneer)

P.s. are you using the Oak because that is what you have in the shop?

Roger

I want the grain pattern of the Oak.  I think it will make for a very interesting look and texture with the black lacquer.  I think the idea of glass fits more with the "look" I am going for than a veneer would. 
I am building this to sell, and the whole "Crate and Barrel"/"Pottery Barn" look seems to sell.  I want this to be a better version of something you might see in one of those stores. 

I think the smallest I am going to go on the legs is 3".  I want to keep that connection to the more modern look. 
I've never designed furniture before, this is tougher than I thought. 

 

[Michael Kellough]

Sparky,

As an alternative to the glass I like Micheal's use of a veneer,

but if you go that route..... depending on the veneer pattern,

I would consider something more closed grained than Oak.

(You might have too much visually going on, between the Oak and a figured/ lively veneer)

P.s. are you using the Oak because that is what you have in the shop?

Roger

I'm also concerned about the oak, particularly plain sawn oak on the legs. The figure is so graphic it could really alter the appearance. Quartersawn oak would look great but you'd have to build the legs out of triangles (the Stickley way) to keep the small texture/pattern all the way around.

 

[monte]

Sparky,

"I've never designed furniture before, this is tougher than I thought."

.......in that case, you might consider getting some bass wood

and knocking off some small models in an afternoon,

to get yourself out of a 2D format and into a 3d thinking format.

As a process, make (large) samples of the color and grain combinations you expect to use.

and try reading these articles from Finewoodworking....
by looking up....... www.finewoodworking.com/ (it's worth the sign up fee)

From Fine Woodworking #189
Fine-Tune Designs Before You Build
Follow drawings with mock-ups to give your furniture ideas shape and substance
by Gary Rogowski

or this one.......

From Fine Woodworking #111
Models Help Projects Succeed
Prototypes of cardboard, foam or paper help solve design and construction problems
by Jan Zaitlin

Roger

 

[Michael Kellough]

While oak is a great wood it's at the low point of it's popularity right now.
Some commercial wood lots are not even bothering to cut it right now as the price
wholesalers are willing to pay is too low.

Perspective mode in CAD is very helpful but still not as good as a mock-up as Roger suggests.
You'll still need to simulate the oak pattern somehow IMO because it can easily overwhelm
the lines of the form.

 

[monte]

Sparky,

I live in Los Angeles, and at times I'm in and out of design showrooms, working with architects and interior designers.

I go to "Design" exhibits when I have the time.

So without sounding pompous,

If your going for that "contemporary" look.

Regarding the Oak.......I'm also on the same page with Michael.

Roger

 

[cflansbaum]

another thing I find very helpful is to colorize my drawings with different wood patterns.  A few come with Sketch-up, but you can setup your own with pictures on-line.  A great repository for this is:
http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/indextotal.htm

a lot of the on-line mail order places have some too.

Carl

 

[Tim Sproul]

I would see how it looks with the bottom rails wider than the top rails.

And also see how it looks with thicker rails.  Perhaps try the bottom rails 1/4 - 1/2 inch or so thicker than the top rails, in addition to being the same width or wider than the top rails.

 

[monte]

Build some small model mock ups.
Build some small model mock ups.
Build some small model mock ups.
Build some small model mock ups.
Build some small model mock ups.
Build some small model mock ups.
Build some small model mock ups.
Build some small model mock ups.
Build some small model mock ups.
Build some small model mock ups.
Build some small model mock ups.
Build some small model mock ups.
Build some small model mock ups.
Build some small model mock ups.
Build some small model mock ups.
Build some small model mock ups.
Build some small model mock ups.

 

[monte]

Ok, Sparky........

Since you don't mind being ruffled,

Why do you think the some of the best ideas generated, started on the backs of napkins?

Gotta start "doing". Without the mind connection, without the analysis.

You need to develop your design core.

Since your new at designing, don't get caught up in the details.

Get a "feel" for designing in the medium or format your going to be building it.

Craftspeople new to designing have a tendency to overdesign.

Make little sawdust first, (or cardboard dust)

Get your proportions down first,

figure out how it "works"

Imagine yourself under a white sky, in a white room,

with a white floor and a white coffee table.

Start with the essentials, everything else will fall into place.

forget about the "type" of wood,

forget about the "type" of color,

forget about the "typing"

You've put enough time on the mac PC.

Your homework should be, to "build some _______ ______ _______ ___"

and report back here with pics.  ;D

Then you could go back to the mac PC and fine tune the details.

Roger

 

[Overtime]

  No design or furniture expert here, just one more opinion  ;D

    I like your first and second versions. ( with the legs a bit lighter in size ) And I also like the plank type surface of the top and bottom. The champhers look good but by the time all the sanding is done they may end up being a little more rounded. No problem still nice design. You could glue up a top and then go over the seams with a V grove router bit.
I can see where your headed as far as the black and the grain being visable. I'm not a big fan of plate glass for table tops. But I love it in display cabinets and such. Veneer also sounds good.

Carl said,
I'd keep the "faux tenons", but make them look like a design element,  not the ends of through tenons.  Make them out of a contrasting wood.

Yea I'm thinking the same or like a small copper tile or something with a little contrast and tap them in like an inlay.

  The cool part of designing or creating your own project even if some elements are "borrowed" is that as you proceed you can change direction or steer the project toward your vision of what you want it to look like. So if the legs look a little thick trim them down before assembly etc. It's nice when you can see the completed project in your head and then you just build to get it there.

  Most every project is a learning experience for me, after it's done I think about the things I would change or what I like or don't like about it. Then I apply some of those ideas in the next project.

 

 

 

[Michael Kellough]

Sparky I failed to notice that you're going use black lacquer for the finish.
That knocks my concern for using oak down a few notches.

 

[Sparky977]

Thanks for all the helpful info Roger.  
I definitely plan on doing some sort of mockups, at least of key detail points.  Unfortunately, I am in the middle of figuring out where to set up shop.  I had shop space, but the relationship with the owner of the building has soured (he is the builder that http://festoolownersgroup.com/index.php?topic=4112.0this job was for) and I essentially got kicked out.  So now the decision is whether to use my dad's pole barn (which has all kinds of fun relationship ramifications, but would be the cheapest option), or somehow find a few grand to remodel my barns to a usable point (new roof, insulation, drywall, wiring, and a connecting way between the two barns).  So basically, I'm stuck with designing at the moment.  I would much rather be making sawdust, believe me.  

I went to Woodcraft this afternoon, to visit my (someday) Kapex.  I was looking at the lumber, and got thinking about using Ash instead of Oak.  But, yeah, the black lacquer is the key, along with the texture of the grain.

Patrick, I like the idea of copper covers for the "through tenons."  Afterall, I have a Domino, so why not use IT for the tenon joinery and all the "throughs" would be just a design element, like you and Carl pointed out.