New CT 26/36/48 Refresh

[lloydh]

What are your thoughts on the timeframe for new full-size Festool dust extractors and what would you like to see?

It seems like the MIDI has stolen the march in terms of innovation and value so at the very least I’d like to see Bluetooth built in, a blower port, and possibly an externally accessible/replaceable filter.

As the range “flagships”, it would be good if the extraction performance could be improved to a level noticeably beyond the MIDI/MINI.

Controversial perhaps, but I think the line could be consolidated to two units since the MIDI/MINI now exist. Maybe something like a CT 30 and 45?

This one’s optimistic but it would be great to see powertool manufacturers adopt a common Bluetooth protocol for tools to switch dust extraction on/off — even just the German manufacturers would be a good start.

In terms of design, I really like the hose garage (and also the previous internal power cord storage too) but I do like the solid, flat tops of the Bosch extractors; a place to sit or rest things on. If this was possible or offered as a Systainer-compatible accessory I’d be interested.

I’ve heard lots of praise of the PLANEX hose’s flexibility. Maybe a new sheathed version with the standard connector could be introduced. And 36mm included with the bigger CTs.

Finally, how about a new Systainer-compatible power pass through feature. This could work with an updated Sys Power-Station meaning no power cable required. Conversely, powered accessories could be stacked onto the new CTs when they’re connected to mains power, e.g. a battery charging dock, or the Sys Power-Station could accept charge this way.

I’m sure there’s a lot more that could be added (improved CT Pre-Separator integration), but that’s a few ideas to start with.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Controversial perhaps, but I think the line could be consolidated to two units since the midi/mini exist. Maybe a CT 30 and 45?

Yes, highly controversial indeed. Less is not good, less is never good. We want more, much more, so I propose a CT20, a 22, a 26 and a 27. 30 is fine with me, a 33 also, and because I don't like the number 36 it should be upgraded to a CT37. Who wouldn't want a liter extra storage anyway? Then top it off with a 40 and a 45, I can stand behind that number, 45. Above that, meh, 48 is just overkill.

It seems like the Midi has stolen the march in terms of innovation so at the very least I’d like to see Bluetooth built in, a blower port, and possibly an externally accessible/replaceable filter.

It hasn't stolen my heart, that's for sure. Suddenly it has this little computer on-board, that all the time, for no reason says: "Suck it up yourself". My old Mini just worked, all the time.

As the range “flagships”, it would be good if the extraction performance could be improved to a level noticeably beyond the midi/mini.

Now that's something I can agree with. While you're at it, upgrade suction on the Mini/Midi too.

 

[DeformedTree]

The big CTs are just fine as the are.  The smaller vacs got downgraded with the membrane/integrated control deal.  The big units have BT and it's just fine as a plug in module.

I don't see them having a need to change them.

I think there would be a place to make a more full size sys-vac. Something that is basically a CT26 like unit, but fully in systainer format. Also a new cyclone that has a better bin design (just make it a systainer, no after thought suspenders).  Also maybe develop a systainer based retractable hose reel.

But as is, the big CTs are good exactly as they are.

 

[lloydh]

The big CTs are just fine as the are.  The smaller vacs got downgraded with the membrane/integrated control deal.  The big units have BT and it's just fine as a plug in module.

If I was buying today it would still be one of the bigger CTs, but mainly for the power take-off rating.
Anecdotally I see a lot more MIDIs now and it wouldn't surprise me if the MIDI has canalised CT 26/36 sales; for most use cases it offers the same or better utility at a better price.
Instinctively I don't particularly like the membrane switch either, though I haven't used/owned a MIDI.

I do think the big CTs are due for some updates though. Having the option to add the bluetooth module bears testament to the original engineering but it's getting farcical needing to buy this expensive add-on when the cheaper model includes this. Personally I'd also like the option to install the auxiliary socket module while having bluetooth available.

Yes, highly controversial indeed. Less is not good, less is never good.

I understand that perspective and there are scenarios where I wish there was more choice (TS65 maybe? I jest [big grin]).
With the CTs, personally I think the line has become a bit confusing. "Which Festool dust extractor should I get" has to be the most common question, right? I've been there, and the Festool sales answers aren't very convincing in justifying the extra cost of the 26/36/48 in terms of extra capacity. Having more SKUs also adds manufacturing, distribution and retail costs, which get passed on — plus inventory problems.
I'm certainly not passionate about removing choice (or changing to any 'round number' capacities!), it's just my gut feeling that the same basic specs across the lineup despite very different prices doesn't seem like a situation Festool would have planned to be in.

As the range “flagships”, it would be good if the extraction performance could be improved to a level noticeably beyond the midi/mini.

Now that's something I can agree with. While you're at it, upgrade suction on the Mini/Midi too.

It would be amazing if Festool could make significant gains in terms of increased power / decreased size / reduced weight but I suspect current motor tech and physics aren't allowing much progress here — unless Festool have some Area 51 tech in their labs.

 

[DeformedTree]

Remember, BlueTooth started with the bigger CTs, that's where they launched it, the MIDI/MINI updates came later with it.

Some folks may prefer not to be paying for it if they are just hooking the machines up to say a Kapex as a dedicated unit.

What has probably made the smaller units more popular in recent times is cyclones.  Those have made the CT36/48 almost redundant. I think a CT26 with Cyclone is shorter than a CT48. You see on the Festool Recon site, the CT48s are one of those items Festool can't find people to take them off their hands.

If they had kept the controls on the newer MIDI/MINI like that of the older units and the bigger units, I might pick one up as a general purpose vac, but as is, I'll pass.

 

[AlexThePalex]

it's just my gut feeling that the same basic specs across the lineup despite very different prices doesn't seem like a situation Festool would have planned to be in.

It is exactly the situation they have planned to be in. It was their choice to create all these different sizes, doesn't seem like an accident to me.

It would be amazing if Festool could make significant gains in terms of increased power / decreased size / reduced weight but I suspect current motor tech and physics aren't allowing much progress here — unless Festool have some Area 51 tech in their labs.

Another choice they've made, to use these turbines. Whenever I use a vac of a different brand I always notice how they are a lot stronger. Not area 51 tech, Festool just lags behind the competition.

 

[lloydh]

It is exactly the situation they have planned to be in. It was their choice to create all these different sizes, doesn't seem like an accident to me.

I'm just saying that if Festool started with a clean sheet of paper I'm not convinced the lineup would look quite like it does. That's normal for all sorts of manufacturers with staggered product refresh cycles. Popular products tend to be updated more often than the halo/niche products so the value proposition across the line can get a little out of whack at times — manufacturers tend to prefer maintaining their price points even though the marginal cost of production drops significantly for mature products.

Some folks may prefer not to be paying for it if they are just hooking the machines up to say a Kapex as a dedicated unit.

What has probably made the smaller units more popular in recent times is cyclones.  Those have made the CT36/48 almost redundant. I think a CT26 with Cyclone is shorter than a CT48. You see on the Festool Recon site, the CT48s are one of those items Festool can't find people to take them off their hands.

The actual cost of the bluetooth hardware has to be minuscule today, but rolling out replacements for all the 26/36/48 model SKUs just with bluetooth built in would be costly and might disgruntle distributors/retailers. I don't know but they might even have to re-certify the machines in different markets. Unfortunately this is a tangible disadvantage of the range's size.

Has the 48 ever been popular for joinery/mainstream workshops? I've seen it configured for commercial finishing/autobody work but have no idea how big the market is. I don't have a cyclone pre-separator but it would suit my requirements so I'd be keen to see any improvements here.

 

[AlexThePalex]

I'm just saying that if Festool started with a clean sheet of paper I'm not convinced the lineup would look quite like it does. That's normal for all sorts of manufacturers with staggered product refresh cycles. Popular products tend to be updated more often than the halo/niche products so the value proposition across the line can get a little out of whack at times — manufacturers tend to prefer maintaining their price points even though the marginal cost of production drops significantly for mature products.

I don't know, I don't think I am talented enough to look in the heads of Festools' marketeers and designers.

I just look at the history of which vacs they sold, so I don't really understand the "staggering", because there have already been 2 generations of radically different vacs from Festool.

Once they had a very old generation of ASR vacs which they replaced for a line of vacs they licensed from Kraenzle. CTL11, 22, 33, 44, 55, all exactly the same except for bag size. Then they added the Mini and Midi vacs with a completely different form factor to give people more compact options. That new line proved quite popular and eventually they got rid of the Kraenzle line and Festool (or should I say TTS) made their own manufacturing line to produce all their vacs in-house, and introduced the CTL26 and 36. And later added the 48.

Seems to me a well tought out process of product development, and not a simple "the market dictates" situation.

And Festool is not like the bigger tool manufacturers who bring out a new line every 3 months. When they do bring someting new to the market, they have spent years perfecting the design and thinking about its target audience.

I don't have a cyclone pre-separator but it would suit my requirements so I'd be keen to see any improvements here.

Since you don't have one, what would you like to see improved here?

 

[Paul_HKI]

I find it pretty amusing that folks object to the membrane switch gear on the newer CT's. 

I've had older CT's (22 and 26) and first generation Midi, but now use a pair of second gen Midi's. 

There are no issues with the membrane switches.  It may be your personal preference, which is fine, but it puts a smile on my face every time I see someone say that's the reason they wouldn't choose a much more feature rich CT than the older generation. 

It's the same as folks who stuck with their Nokia 6310i because it had buttons, rather than move on with the times and choose a smartphone.  Dinosaur thinking, really.

 

[notenoughcash]

hear hear. i used a ct 26 a bit back and thought it rather clunky after the membrane on the midi.  and if it is concernes about the strength of the membrande, then they are unfounded.

 

[lloydh]

There are no issues with the membrane switches.  It may be your personal preference, which is fine, but it puts a smile on my face every time I see someone say that's the reason they wouldn't choose a much more feature rich CT than the older generation.

hear hear. i used a ct 26 a bit back and thought it rather clunky after the membrane on the midi.  and if it is concernes about the strength of the membrande, then they are unfounded.

Good to hear from people who actually use MIDIs. I think my irrational phobia stems from failed rubber-covered power switches on DeWalt sanders.

I mentioned earlier that it's only really the power take-off rating that would make me look to the bigger CTs at this point, and it's almost a 50% premium for this, plus the cost of the bluetooth module! But I see that people are successfully using the OF2200 with MIDIs so even that might not be an advantage in practice.

And Festool is not like the bigger tool manufacturers who bring out a new line every 3 months. When they do bring someting new to the market, they have spent years perfecting the design and thinking about its target audience.

I like Festool too! But their conservative approach and limited resources inevitably means some of the lineup languishes and falls behind competitors in terms of performance. I don't have a Festool drill, impact driver or angle grinder and wouldn't be tempted to switch. Performance has to be at least comparable with competitors for their "perfect design" and system approach to make me willing to pay the Festool premium.

 

[cpw]

In terms of design, I really like the hose garage (and also the previous internal power cord storage too) but I do like the solid, flat tops of the Bosch extractors; a place to sit or rest things on. If this was possible or offered as a Systainer-compatible accessory I’d be interested.

I like the hose garage w/o the flat top.  When the hose is out, I tend to toss things like my hammer, a flat bar, or whatever other tools I happen to be using in there.  It's nice knowing that there is enough on the sides that they wouldn't just fall onto the floor if I drag it around a bit.

 

[Paul_HKI]

Good to hear from people who actually use MIDIs. I think my irrational phobia stems from failed rubber-covered power switches on DeWalt sanders.

I mentioned earlier that it's only really the power take-off rating that would make me look to the bigger CTs at this point, and it's almost a 50% premium for this, plus the cost of the bluetooth module! But I see that people are successfully using the OF2200 with MIDIs so even that might not be an advantage in practice.

[font=verdana, arial, helvetica, sans-serif]OF2200 and a Midi combo is what justified picking up a second one in my case.  Absolutely no issues at all, at least in Europe.  [/font]

[attachimg=1]

 

[AlexThePalex]

I find it pretty amusing that folks object to the membrane switch gear on the newer CT's. 

but it puts a smile on my face every time I see someone say that's the reason they wouldn't choose a much more feature rich CT than the older generation. 

And I feel sad people can be as smug as you and think it is just perfectly ok to be like that.  [sad]

Newer isn't always better for everybody. I like the plain old simplicty where vacs are realiable an do what you say instead of having  a mind of their own.

 

[Paul_HKI]

And I feel sad people can be as smug as you and think it is just perfectly ok to be like that.  [sad]

Newer isn't always better for everybody. I like the plain old simplicty where vacs are realiable an do what you say instead of having  a mind of their own.

I don't think you really understand the meaning of the word 'smug', Alex.  Being open-minded, prepared to move with the times and take advantage of new technologies as they emerge and reach mainstream isn't something to be criticised.  New may be different, different is often better than old. 

But you know what, you do what you like and I'll do what I like, how's that?  It's not about either of us being right or wrong, but rather, it's about how we differ as folks and how we look at what's available to us to use if we want it. 

I like the evolution of these units.  That's a good thing, because I get to enjoy it.  It's even more of a good thing because it's the way things will proceed, so my comfort with this change is something that's likely to make it easier as things progress, rather than leave me lamenting for the old ways, the old controls, the old ideas of how things should be.

They'll be what the manufacturer determines to be the best option to address their market.  And here's the key point here:  These controls work perfectly, perfectly well.  I paid good money for a Midi I, then good money for another after that.  This was after paying good money time and again for previous generations of Festool CT.  I'm as well equipped from personal experience on both sides of the rotary knob vs membrane switch unit to determine whether or not there's some decline in quality or user experience. 

There isn't. 

As for the 'mind of its own' stuff?  That's just nonsense at the end of the day.  I've had a CT 26 decide to run at half speed.  I could change the rotary control for suction and it did nothing.  The repair cost the same, give or take a few euro, as it would have cost to replace the control assembly on a Midi I. 

So again, real world experience trumps fictional reasons to resist change. 

I'm happy to have the means to buy what I'd like.  I've created that good fortune for myself so I'll enjoy the ability to update a few of my tools here and there, as it suits my wants and needs.

Am I smug?  Not at all.  But I'll still feel quite comfortable with my sense of amusement when someone won't put their money where their mouth is, preferring to think their idea of best is actually best, especially so when it's someone opinionated enough to think their uninformed opinion should somehow never bring a smirk to someone elses face. 

 

[AlexThePalex]

I don't think you really understand the meaning of the word 'smug', Alex.  Being open-minded, prepared to move with the times and take advantage of new technologies as they emerge and reach mainstream isn't something to be criticised.  New may be different, different is often better than old. 

I know it a lot better than you. In reality, I am much more smug than you, except that when I feel condescending, I resists the urge to lash out and I still treat people in a respectful manner no matter if I disagree with them or not. It is called "good manners".

The fact that you honestly share here with us that you are amused by people's opinions that do not agree with yours is the point where you become smug to others. Get that?

But you know what, you do what you like and I'll do what I like, how's that?  It's not about either of us being right or wrong, but rather, it's about how we differ as folks and how we look at what's available to us to use if we want it. 

Fine. You remember that the next you read my opinion. If you have a different opinion, say your piece, but don't be condescending or I'll call you out. 

I'm as well equipped from personal experience on both sides of the rotary knob vs membrane switch unit to determine whether or not there's some decline in quality or user experience. 

There isn't. 

You are not the only person on earth with personal experience. Something works for you? Fine, I won't attack you on that on a personal level. But you're different, people should just be quiet, and move on, right? Get with the times. You talk often like that here, and I will talk back when you do it to me.

I am 49 but I have over 40 years of experience with power tools as I grew up in a body shop/garage. And the older tools were MUCH more reliable than modern tools. Because they relied on simpler and more robust technology. Sure, some things definitely get better with new tech. Brushless motors are a bliss. But not everything is better. Too much electronics in modern tools and that's not a bliss at all. It is just a marketing gig for empty headed people.

Worst of all things are these electronics inside the tools that decide for you when something goes wrong. I used to borrow a Bosch sawzall from somebody which was 20 years old and it just works, all the time. Then I decide to buy my own, a much more modern Makita, and it has anti-kickback protection. Guess what? The darn saw stalls ALL THE TIME. Like, I make a difficult cut that requires some force, and it stops every two seconds to "protect" me. Like, I don't have any muscles to do that for me. Bloody ridiculous. The thing is USELESS. But sure, new tech, right? Great, we can't get any work done anymore.

I notice the same difference between my older 2006 Mini vac and my newer 2018 Midi, the old one just works, all the time, it only quits when I've been sanding for hours in the 35 degree summer sun. The new one? It stops ALL THE TIME. Because it has more electronics in it that supposedly protect the tool. Yeah sure. It interferes with my productivity. And I am pretty sure the newer generation Midi's has even more of that junk inside.

When I got my first Festool in 2008, Festool would advertise everywhere that there tools were more expensive than the competition because they were more robust and would last for 25 years. That was their slogan back then. And then suddenly, you never heard that slogan again.

We all have our own experience, and what works for you does not need to work for somebody else. Accept that, and don't be smug about it.

 

[Paul_HKI]

I don't think you really understand the meaning of the word 'smug', Alex.  Being open-minded, prepared to move with the times and take advantage of new technologies as they emerge and reach mainstream isn't something to be criticised.  New may be different, different is often better than old. 

I know it a lot better than you. In reality, I am much more smug than you, except that when I feel condescending, I resists the urge to lash out and I still treat people in a respectful manner no matter if I disagree with them or not. It is called "good manners".

The fact that you honestly share here with us that you are amused by people's opinions that do not agree with yours is the point where you become smug to others. Get that?

But you know what, you do what you like and I'll do what I like, how's that?  It's not about either of us being right or wrong, but rather, it's about how we differ as folks and how we look at what's available to us to use if we want it. 

Fine. You remember that the next you read my opinion. If you have a different opinion, say your piece, but don't be condescending or I'll call you out. 

I'm as well equipped from personal experience on both sides of the rotary knob vs membrane switch unit to determine whether or not there's some decline in quality or user experience. 

There isn't. 

You are not the only person on earth with personal experience. Something works for you? Fine, I won't attack you on that on a personal level. But you're different, people should just be quiet, and move on, right? Get with the times. You talk often like that here, and I will talk back when you do it to me.

I am 49 but I have over 40 years of experience with power tools as I grew up in a body shop/garage. And the older tools were MUCH more reliable than modern tools. Because they relied on simpler and more robust technology. Sure, some things definitely get better with new tech. Brushless motors are a bliss. But not everything is better. Too much electronics in modern tools and that's not a bliss at all. It is just a marketing gig for empty headed people.

Worst of all things are these electronics inside the tools that decide for you when something goes wrong. I used to borrow a Bosch sawzall from somebody which was 20 years old and it just works, all the time. Then I decide to buy my own, a much more modern Makita, and it has anti-kickback protection. Guess what? The darn saw stalls ALL THE TIME. Like, I make a difficult cut that requires some force, and it stops every two seconds to "protect" me. Like, I don't have any muscles to do that for me. Bloody ridiculous. The thing is USELESS. But sure, new tech, right? Great, we can't get any work done anymore.

I notice the same difference between my older 2006 Mini vac and my newer 2018 Midi, the old one just works, all the time, it only quits when I've been sanding for hours in the 35 degree summer sun. The new one? It stops ALL THE TIME. Because it has more electronics in it that supposedly protect the tool. Yeah sure. It interferes with my productivity. And I am pretty sure the newer generation Midi's has even more of that junk inside.

When I got my first Festool in 2008, Festool would advertise everywhere that there tools were more expensive than the competition because they were more robust and would last for 25 years. That was their slogan back then. And then suddenly, you never heard that slogan again.

We all have our own experience, and what works for you does not need to work for somebody else. Accept that, and don't be smug about it.

Alex, I'll put this plainly.

I'm not smug.  I'm not arrogant.  I'm not condescending. 

I'm writing from a position where I have first hand experience, using something I've bought and paid for, twice.

It amuses me when I see what you've written here, again.  What amuses me is that you write about your opinions and irrelevant experience in relation to the specific feature of a specific tool, as opposed to writing about your experiences of that tool in real life.

On any forum, for any brand, product line or subject of interest, there will be people who do that.  It's the internet and I get that. 

At the end of the day, my amusement is probably a good thing.  It beats getting angry when people write about things which are no more than un-infored opinion and present it as something worth more than that, when in reality it's just a guy with notions who hasn't actually put these to the test.

You and I along with anyone else who has something to say should be able to say it, whether or not we agree or disagree, without fear that someone's going to get the hump just because what they've said strikes a humorous note for the person who receives the message. 

I'm no spring chicken myself and have just as much time 'on the tools' as you have.  That's completely irrelevant information, coming from either of us.  Where we differ is that I have the first hand experience with the tool models in question to be able to combine with my 40+ years of tool use to bring to bear.  You don't.  That's just a fact, nothing open to argument or dispute.

So when I read strong statements presented as facts when they're no more than opinions formed in the absence of actual experience, this amuses me.  It amuses me that people do that in the first place and it further amuses me that even when these truths are pointed out to some, they can't grasp the futility of their attempts to argue a point they're not in a position to make in the first place.

The internet serves to magnify just how ridiculous this stuff is, and this is just one of those times when it's easy to see how people don't like to be corrected and can't even see how silly they're being. 

I don't want to argue.  There's nothing to be gained of any real value here in going round in circles.  But I'll keep finding opinion (especially when it's malformed) presented as fact rather amusing.

TLDR; I bought two CT Midi I's with membrane controls, filter cleaning, BT remote, integrated hose garages and blower ports.  They're great bits of a kit and a big advancement when considered as a whole compared to older vacs.  They both perform with absolute reliability with a whole host of tools connected, direct cabled and via BT control, without ever doing anything unexpected.  I write from an informed position of ownership, as opposed to as someone who wants something else or doesn't want to buy one of these.  My opinion in this particular instance has value.  The others opinion is misleading, ill-informed and not particularly worth considering as a potential buyer of a modern Festool CT.  You may also find it entertaining or amusing that people in such a position continue to push their notions as valuable input, despite all the practical evidence to the contrary.  If you're Dutch, you might even appreciate the straight-talking, no nonsense response I offer to this guff.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Alex, I'll put this plainly.

I'm not smug.  I'm not arrogant.  I'm not condescending. 

It amuses me when I see what you've written here, again.  What amuses me is that you write about your opinions and irrelevant experience in relation to the specific feature of a specific tool, as opposed to writing about your experiences of that tool in real life.

You know what the human experience is, right?

Everybody here reads what you write, Paul.

 

[Paul_HKI]

How about a Straw Man Fallacy, Alex?

 

[ChuckM]

the membrane panel will break down in time, they all do. 
Snip.

I like the CT15 more than the CT26 I used to own, because in the current application, I don't need it to be mobile. The price is right (for me [tongue]), but the membrane part is its weakest link. Every time I press it, I wonder how long it'll stop working. I wouldn't want it if I had a choice.

My electric range is about 20 years old. and the clock membrane switch is no longer working. Mind you, I've used it about 50 times only (2 times per year due to day-light saving).