New Guide Rail Square - Made in Canada

[Svar]

NOTHING WRONG other than fostering competition.

Actually not. That's why we have patents with expiration dates. It's a delicate ballance. Stealing someone's R&D fresh from the oven does not encourage innovation. Text book stuff, really.

 

[live4ever]

Does a US Patent matter in Canada? Im honestly asking as I do not know how patents work internationally.

Usually no, but selling a knockoff in US would be illegal until patent expires.

It's possible (and would be prudent) that they won't ship to the US.

 

[Dan Clermont]

Hello Everyone,

Ultimate Tools does not manufacture this product. Matter of fact, we do not manufacture any products at all.

We were offered the opportunity to carry this product in our retail store and just happened to be the first dealers to post this product on the FOG.

I am not sure what agreement the manufacturer has with TSO and was not aware of any patents or royalties.

We carry both Qwas Dogs and Fine Tool Work Dogs in our store. You could consider one to be the knock off of the other, but both lines do quite well and we have had no complaints.

TSO is in the US, we are in Canada. Many customers do not like to deal with bringing products across the border. Having an option in Canada would be good for customers north of the border

We would be more than happy to carry TSO squares for Canadian customer if possible and welcome that opportunity.

We will remove this product from our website until we talk to the distributor

Thanks
Dan Clermont

 

[ChuckM]

It is a good move on the part of Ultimate Tools to withdraw the product temporarily until everyone has had a chance to think through the issue.

My understanding is that the TOS guide rail square does not have any Canadian patent protection (correct me if I am wrong) and hence this isn't a legal issue. Ultimate Tools may decide to carry or not to carry this competitor or copy product, depending on your perspective, but it won't mean the alternative product will not be available to Canadian consumers as other retailers are still carrying it.

Bosch cannot now sell its Reaxx saws in the States but it is still selling the saws in Canada. So what do you think about that? Patent protection is a tool a manufacturer can have to protect its invention; if it is not used by an inventor, an inventor should not expect others not to copy the invention. Of course, as we all know, it is expensive or sometimes financially not viable to go after someone who infringes on your patent right, even if it is there. However, morally or ethically, the battle is easier to win.

Another example is the Tite-Mark marking gauge. The inventor has not filed for any patent protection (again, correct me if I am wrong) and now a copy at half the price (?) is circulating (on Amazon, I think). Do you think Amazon will knowingly carry a product that infringes on someone's patent right? Amazon will remove the product from its site if it is the case.

 

[clark_fork]

Let nobody forget...

[attachimg=1]

Tools evolve and build on the past. However,  China has brought a new dimension to this concept by the outright knockoff of products introducing no new intellectual property input. I was astonished one day to discover Woodpecker knockoff products manufactured and sold from China that are even anodized with the signature red. The announced product today was an outright knockoff with no improvement over what came before. It represents theft plain and simple. I own both versions of the TSO square. At the onset, via FOG I encouraged the development of the second square that can be used at each end. I accept readily that TSO made a solid improvement over what came before (Woodpecker et al) and demonstrated ongoing competence in the further development of this product. But we all know and accept that tool making operating in a changing environment and no tool save for the Stanley #1 is forever.

Hats off to Dan for withdrawing this product and a special hats off to FOG for appropriate vigilance.

 

[ben_r_]

Let nobody forget...

[attachimg=1]

Tools evolve and build on the past. However,  China has brought a new dimension to this concept by the outright knockoff of products introducing no new intellectual property input. I was astonished one day to discover Woodpecker knockoff products manufactured and sold from China that are even anodized with the signature red. The announced product today was an outright knockoff with no improvement over what came before. It represents theft plain and simple. I own both versions of the TSO square. At the onset, via FOG I encouraged the development of the second square that can be used at each end. I accept readily that TSO made a solid improvement over what came before (Woodpecker et al) and demonstrated ongoing competence in the further development of this product. But we all know and accept that tool making operating in a changing environment and no tool save for the Stanley #1 is forever.

Hats off to Dan for withdrawing this product and a special hats off to FOG for appropriate vigilance.

And before that was the DeWalt for their track saw: LINK

[attachimg=1]

 

[Dan Clermont]

Hello Everyone,

For what it is worth we did reach out to TSO on June 7th about carrying their product line in our store and on our website.

We received a response from Eric stating they were not interested in distribution. If they would have shown an interest in distribution we would have gladly followed through with TSO.

We did very well with the Woodpecker One Time Tool  Guide Square offered a year ago from our customer base. Their is a market in our customer base to provide an accessory for squaring up guide rails. This was the alternative option

Best Regards
Dan Clermont

 

[charley1968]

I'd like to say i think you reacted splendidly, [member=216]Dan Clermont[/member]. And while i wish Hans and Eric all the financial success in the world, i don't think a right-angle fastended to a rail with a snap-lock is exactly in the same league as finding a cure for cancer, especially if it's been done before, by Woodpecker et all. Besides, TSO has been contacted and has declined using distribution in Canada.
But the copy-cats could've changed the design a wee bit more, so it wouldn't be so blatantly obvious whom they copied from..

 

[rljatl]

I'd like to say i think you reacted splendidly, [member=216]Dan Clermont[/member]. And while i wish Hans and Eric all the financial success in the world, i don't think a right-angle fastended to a rail with a snap-lock is exactly in the same league as finding a cure for cancer, especially if it's been done before, by Woodpecker et all. Besides, TSO has been contacted and has declined using distribution in Canada.
But the copy-cats could've changed the design a wee bit more, so it wouldn't be so blatantly obvious whom they copied from..

[member=23615]charley1968[/member] My understanding is different than yours.  TSO has not declined distributors in Canada.  They do not use distributors at all.  They only sell direct through their website.  Also, they have clearly stated that they will sell to anyone anywhere in the world.
We ship worldwide - $14.95 USD to all destinations outside the United States

 

[charley1968]

That's what i understood as well. But by using a distributor the producer offers the product to a bigger/ wider market. That's what TSO appearently declined and that's what i meant.

 

[ChuckM]

[member=23615]charley1968[/member] My understanding is different than yours.  TSO has not declined distributors in Canada.  They do not use distributors at all.  [/url]

With due respect, that is hair-splitting.

I am not saying TSO Products is wrong in its decision to sell direct or not to use a distributor, but that could be an incentive for someone else (I don't know who produces the alternative square) to come in legally in Canada to fill that void. Why TSO Products doesn't want to have a distributor in Canada or anywhere else outside the US is not important as it is its marketing right. Yet, if they were not seeing the alternative (or copycat as some put it) coming, they had themselves to answer to.

Sooner or later, someone within or outside North America would find a manufacturer in China or Taiwan and mass produce something similar and sell them outside the US -- legally. $200 Cdn (shipping included) is big incentive. They can produce and sell a copycat for $120 Cdn or even $100 Cdn to Europe (where Festool is common) or Australia and still make a decent profit.

May be someone is already doing that....

 

[peter halle]

[member=216]Dan Clermont[/member] ,  I want to compliment you for they way you have responded.  You have always been a class act.

I am sure that the majority of members here now do not know that you were one of the original team of Members here who visited a training center and got hands on time with some new to market tools.  I am sure that not many know that you became a Festool dealer after your participation here and that trip.  Many here probably have never read a post of yours prior to you becoming a dealer when you spent lots of time helping out newbies like me.

Thank you for being YOU!  The real issue isn't with you but with the producer of the tool.

Guess you are celebrating your ten years here also!

Peter

 

[Baartman]

I'll echo this sentiment, I order from Ultimate tools and am happy with the service I receive. Last order they took the time to contact me and inform me of an opportunity to upgrade to airstream batteries. The order came without the FSK rail by accident, and when I called, without me asking, they overnight shipped the rail.

 

[nickao]

To classy for me. If Dan did not receive a formal cease and desist form TSO he should not pull a darn thing. I wouldn't let a few posters railroad me into removing a product. I am hoping Dan didn't react without TSO contacting him and asking for  removal becasue if they didn't care no one else should.

Dan Clermont has been a name on this forum as long as I remember, a good poster and I feel bad a few guys here called his ethics into question.

 

[Nesting]

Yeah, it's pretty clear where this new rail square got it's design "inspiration" from, but just to throw this into the mix...

There is one small difference I noticed which makes this square an interesting option.
From the pictures, It looks like you can use the top or bottom of this square to reference your cut.
Which means, if I'm not mistaken, this "new" square does the job of both the GR-16 and the GR-16PE.
If that's the case, then it looks like a pretty okay option for someone who lives in Canada like I do. With shipping to Canada, the GR-16 comes to $218.45can or $417.90can for both TSO squares. And that's if it's not hit with any extra duty charges when it gets to the border, which happens to pretty much every package sent using FedEx...in my experience.

Again, just wanted to throw that into this very interesting discussion.

 

[clark_fork]

Yeah, it's pretty clear where this new rail square got it's design "inspiration" from, but just to throw this into the mix...

There is one small difference I noticed which makes this square an interesting option.
From the pictures, It looks like you can use the top or bottom of this square to reference your cut.
Which means, if I'm not mistaken, this "new" square does the job of both the GR-16 and the GR-16PE.
If that's the case, then it looks like a pretty okay option for someone who lives in Canada like I do. With shipping to Canada, the GR-16 comes to $218.45can or $417.90can for both TSO squares. And that's if it's not hit with any extra duty charges when it hits the border, which happens to pretty much every package sent using FedEx...in my experience.

Again, just wanted to throw that into this very interesting discussion.

Video available on this website:http://festoolshop.ca/INSTA-RAILSQUARE

I am not sure I grasped the 45° cut feature until seeing this video.
http://festoolshop.ca/INSTA-RAILSQUARE

 

[Svar]

There is one small difference I noticed which makes this square an interesting option.
From the pictures, It looks like you can use the top or bottom of this square to reference your cut.
Which means, if I'm not mistaken, this "new" square does the job of both the GR-16 and the GR-16PE.

I don't get it. They are nearly identical. What can be done with one, can be done with the other. Or is the angle on GRS-16 not 45 deg?
[attachimg=1]

 

[Klemm]

the angle on the GRS-16 is intentionally not 45 degrees.

The resulting reference edge becomes so short that accuracy degrades seriously. The same thing is true of using the short parallel edge as PE style feature .By not making it a specific angle we wanted to preclude creating the false impression that this is really a practical  feature.
We actually have CAD models of such a tool. The idea was also suggested by a toolmaker customer. Not a new idea at all.

Expect a  separate response form us on the broader topic of imitation in a separate post into the weekend when we have time to respond thoughtfully.

Hans

 

[Nesting]

There is one small difference I noticed which makes this square an interesting option.
From the pictures, It looks like you can use the top or bottom of this square to reference your cut.
Which means, if I'm not mistaken, this "new" square does the job of both the GR-16 and the GR-16PE.

I don't get it. They are nearly identical. What can be done with one, can be done with the other. Or is the angle on GRS-16 not 45 deg?
[attachimg=1]

I wasn't talking about the 45 deg, but the short side of the square where "INSTA" is lasered. It looks like you could use that edge as a 90 deg on the other side of your rail, like the GR-16PE. Hence one square doing what both GR-16's are doing...  I could be wrong, but it looks like it.

 

[Oldwood]

With patents like most things it's the details that matter. What is the TSO patent on? Not just a square that fastens to the rail, Qwas had one of those out as did many others. This square obviously gets inspiration from the TSO square but is not identical. You would need to look at the patent to know if it is infringing.

I would imagine the manufacturer considered the patent but I guess we will find out? [popcorn]