New iPad thoughts

We happily pay for our Festools even though it's a public secret that the resellers (at least here) have a 20% profit margin left from the suggested retail price set by the importer and they need to get some sort of cut from the sales as well as TTS themselves. So I bet the Festoys must have about 50% profit margin from the factory as well and we pays our deeds happily enough for quality tools regardless of them dripping evolutionary upgrades to us [poke] like the TS55R [bite tongue] instead of all the revolutionary ones they must be hiding in the lab waiting to leapfrog Mafell about at the time when they go to hyperspeed with cool stuff in their next track saw [tongue]

Right?  [big grin]
 
I don't agree that there are plenty of technologies that can be rolled out at a moments notice.  The issue is the bleeding edge ones are expensive and in very low demand.  There are always substantial tradeoffs in battery, portability, network, and margin, among other things.

It takes substantial engineering to take a technology and make it useful, usable, and desirable to a broad enough range of the market that you can make money at it.  There is little room for error today.  Look at HP.  Look at Blackberry. 

Apple and Samsung make over 90% of the PROFITS in the mobile and tablet space.  That in spite of the Android software being 'free' from Google.  The reason quite simply is that the other handset and tablet companies don't have the scale or value proposition to make a profit.  People aren't buying what they are selling in the volumes necessary.  Today's landscape is less about 'products' and much more about 'products plus platforms' - very different than the PC days when you could sustain lots of innovation before we saw prices drop through the floor in the Windows world.  Those platforms are being driven today by consumers spending their own money, not companies 'subsidizing' the platform by standardizing on it.  Blackberry has lost 75% of their value in one year.  That's solely because their product (and platform) became non-competitive, but they assumed the corporate customer would sustain them.  With 'bring-your-own' options with many of those enterprise customers, consumers are adopting android or iphone rather than Blackberry.  In the PC space, consolidation and standardization resulted in even the biggest companies like Dell and HP not being able to make money in the computer industry.  The same is likely to happen in the mobile and soon the tablet space, only faster. 

Apple (through supply chain mastery) truly does control the value chain.  They will be the largest manufacturer of mobile chips - not just phones.  They purchased PA Semi and license ARM technology and custom formulate their own A-series chips.  They lock down volume with key new technologies like high resolution displays and block competitors.  That takes massive investments.  Over 300 stores take the experience (and preserve the channel margin) all the way to the consumer.  They own the IP and architecture and have invested in the customer experience end-to-end.  iTunes is about a $9B revenue business alone.  That's just content that feeds the platform.  This is about a platform plus product play.  Amazon is the key contender that could make a play, because they are thinking about monetizing the content as a component of the platform.  They don't report volumes or profits, so it's not clear how the strategy is playing out, but it is a potential model to success.  Unfortunately, they are using the Android core, but not the user experience, as they chose to own the experience rather than give that over to Google.  Sound familiar?

Google buys Motorola because they don't control the product play and thus the experience, and frankly have let the android customer experience fray.  That's the reason they most recently rolled out Google Play - to try to aggregate all these separate content and tools initiatives in a unified experience.  It remains to be seen if G + M equals a better product without all the other OEM's jumping to Microsoft because of perceived favoritism. 

If you've read any articles or books on Apple, they are masterful at saying no.  Strategy is about saying 'no' and few in the technology industry have figured that out.  Apple will walk away from technologies (Remember floppies, CD's, Parallel ports, VGA Monitor ports, etc) and features that they consider 'old' or 'edge cases' to drive maximum volume and thus drive down their costs while also providing a consistent platform and tools to build upon it.  No other company owns the value chain to that extent.

Is it a 'lock-in' strategy?  Maybe, but I look at the value received for the price.  On the day of the announcement of the new iPads, EVERY iPad ever sold could upgrade to new features.  Some were hardware constrained like Siri voice recognition.  But they engineered the platform and removed the carriers from the upgrade equation.  Most tablets today won't see Android 4 till later this year, and that was LAST YEAR'S upgrade.  One could argue Apple is more 'open' to enabling me to keep up with new OS features than any of the carrier controlled Android handsets.  In reality, the carrier's like it that way.  THEY want to control the experience and 'lock you in.'  Before iPhone, remember all the crap they'd install in the home screen and the closed nature of what they would allow?

If someone wants to buy an alternative tablet or phone than Apple, go for it.  But I don't think you can 'blame' Apple for being smarter than the rest of the industry.  And they have the business model, financials, customer loyalty, and product profile to back it up.

neil

 
Alex said:
Flash, anyone? Oh wait, Apple couldn't bother to make it work. And then tell you it's Flash's fault. Tsk, tsk.
Even Adobe, the creator of Flash, has given up on Flash for mobile devices. It has been officially euthanized by its creator. It simply has no place in the mobile world (which Apple foresaw 5 years ago).

Alex said:
Apple's Ipad's are not as cutting edge as you'd think. You'd be surprised if you found out what the engineers have laying around in their labs. Ready to go into production at a moments notice.....But that the release of such technology is throttled by marketing departments that want to suck you dry for every penny you have.

There are technology companies that you can say this about. Intel comes to mind. But Apple is not one of them. Their products are continually pushing out the frontiers with the rest of the industry falling in behind. The thing holding back Apple innovation is the entrenched industries that Apple is disrupting.

I was tempted to go down this thread and correct all the negative 1990s Apple stereotypes. It's almost like the news about the Steve Jobs revolution of Apple hasn't spread internationally. Apple is now known as one of the most pro-customer companies in the world. Certainly in the last 5 years there are few technology companies that have demonstrated as much goodwill towards there customers. Apple innovated single track music purchases. They championed DRM free music. They broke the stranglehold carriers had on their customers cell phones. They revolutionized the distribution of software so that the cost (to the consumer) of an application is now a fraction of what it used to be. They forced the carriers into month-to-month no contract pricing for iPad data plans. They are now demolishing SMS fees. I could go on and on in the ways that Apple has put its customers needs first.

fritter63 said:
The motivation will probably come in the form iOS 6, which will be incompatible with older models, and force and upgrade just the other apps can be kept up to date. THAT is the Apple eco-system, as it were.

You say this as if THAT is a bad thing. Your device is 2 generations old(2 years), and yet it still runs the latest iOS version. Android devices are lucky if they get OS updates 6 months after release. No other mobile device manufacturer is doing as much as Apple to delay the obsolescence of their products. This is an indisputable fact.

Festool and Apple are two of my favorite brands. They both make premium products that are industry leading. They both provide great customer service.  But there is some irony in the appearance of Apple bashing among Festool enthusiasts. To be a Festool customer (in the US at least) you have to endure brutal product segmentation, price controls, and add-on costs. How anyone who loves Festool could complain about the value of Apple products is beyond me.

My impression is that Apple spends a lot of time thinking about how it can give more value to the customer and Festool spends its time thinking about how it can extract value from the customer. If festool made iPads there would be one version for wi-fi only, and another version for mobile service only. You would have to buy both for a complete solution. For example, why aren't the RTS and the DTS a single product? For that matter why aren't the RTS, DTS, ETS 150/3 and ETS 150/5 a single product? If Festool made iPads the RAM upgrades, GPS and Retina displays would be separate accessories which cost as much as the iPad itself.

When I buy Festool I have to try and forget what I paid. When I buy Apple I enjoy reflecting on how much value I am getting.
 
Thank you neilc.
That is one of the most intelligent and informative posts I have ever read on the Apple topic. It should automatically pop up in every Apple post that gets started here!

Like many, I was a serious doubter of Apple products until I got the opportunity to get an iPad for work. It has really opened up my eyes and i now own 3 Apple laptops and 2 iPads. My laptops are dual boot with Windows installed and I couldn't be happier.
 
Alex said:
Kev said:
How much cost difference is there really between 16, 32, and 64 GB of storage ... stuff all in reality ... but look at the price differences. Get real and just offer one model that's 128GB Wifi and 4G and stop screwing us over!!!

Stop the insane greed Apple - do some good for people instead.

Look a little deeper under the machine (I'm bordering on political here - but just a little latitude please) listed companies have to grow and increase shareholder value - that's only reason why they exist. Success is a double edges sword! Now look at the quality of Festool ... See?

But why are you complaining? You admit you're one of the sheep. How do you think they got 100 billion in the bank? It was put there by guys like you.  [huh]

If you know you're so blatantly ripped off, then the only sensible thing to do is to not buy their products. That's what I do. I never bought me one single Apple product, because I already knew this was their business model long before they put their first iPod on the market. And besides their appalling business model, their simplistic products for an outrageous price never appealed to me either.

[attachthumb=1]

[attachthumb=2]

While you've being so obviously clever - consider what I may do for a living - no clue??

Probably a common issue for you.
 
Festool and Apple are at different ends of the spectrum in terms of size, profit, etc. They do have some obviously common values regarding quality and refinement.

The big differences with Festool and Apple to me are reflected when you look at model variations.

Add some more memory to your iPad and you get hit hard.

Go from a bare T12 to a complete T18 set and the extra money you pay gives you significant value in return.

Apple are driven to create massive profit because the shareholders expect and demand it.

Anyone drink Coke ? No?

 
I used to own and advocate the early Macs. However about 1995-2000 or so Macs were a mess - the Power PC based designs were really problematical. That's about when I stopped buying Macs. Now it's just Linux and to a lesser extent Windows. No interest in the Apple koolaid any more.

From my point of view anyway you can't get any more customer friendly than Linux. There it is, take all you want and do whatever you want with it. And here is the complete sources for it so you can modify it to your heart's content. Apple products? Not Bloody Likely. Apple makes them hard to open, and tightly controls what you can do with them.

neilc said:
I don't agree that there are plenty of technologies that can be rolled out at a moments notice.  The issue is the bleeding edge ones are expensive and in very low demand.  There are always substantial tradeoffs in battery, portability, network, and margin, among other things.

Agree. If Samsung could roll out a better tech than Apple has in the market they would do so. Likewise AMD rolling out a better CPU than Intel has, if they had it.

One thing I really don't like about what Apple is doing is their aggressive use of patent suits (based on some pretty dodgy patents) to try to slow down the commoditization of smart phones. Definitely not consumer friendly. Ultimately I am sure they realize that it's a losing battle, and just like any technological market most of it will end up with commodity products sold on thin margins, say much like HDTVs are now. Apple is trying to delay that as long as they can.

And then there is the whole thing about Apple's business model interacting with eBook prices. Both the EU and US FTC took a pretty dim view of that.

http://www.zdnet.com/blog/btl/justice-dept-to-sue-apple-other-publishers-over-e-book-cartel/71135

 
Kev said:
Alex said:
Kev said:
How much cost difference is there really between 16, 32, and 64 GB of storage ... stuff all in reality ... but look at the price differences. Get real and just offer one model that's 128GB Wifi and 4G and stop screwing us over!!!

Stop the insane greed Apple - do some good for people instead.

Look a little deeper under the machine (I'm bordering on political here - but just a little latitude please) listed companies have to grow and increase shareholder value - that's only reason why they exist. Success is a double edges sword! Now look at the quality of Festool ... See?

But why are you complaining? You admit you're one of the sheep. How do you think they got 100 billion in the bank? It was put there by guys like you.  [huh]

If you know you're so blatantly ripped off, then the only sensible thing to do is to not buy their products. That's what I do. I never bought me one single Apple product, because I already knew this was their business model long before they put their first iPod on the market. And besides their appalling business model, their simplistic products for an outrageous price never appealed to me either.

[attachthumb=1]

[attachthumb=2]

While you've being so obviously clever - consider what I may do for a living - no clue??

Probably a common issue for you.

Kev, I see no point for you to become abusive.

I know you are in IT, you've said it a million times so it was kind of hard to miss. So much for my common issues .....

I just asked why you're complaining but still buy the stuff. If that is reason enough for you to become less civilised .... about who does that say something?

Seems like you like to buy stuff. Fine by me. You've mentioned often you buy Festools and then have them sit in their boxes unused. Hey, if that has your fancy, fine by me. Seems like you like to buy Apple products. Fine by me. But then why complain about them on a forum where no Apple representative is going to read it anyway? Be happy you get to choose between a 16, a 32 or a 64 GB version. Choice is nice, isn' t? If we're unhappy about something, let's just complain about it in a way it makes no difference anyway, because complaining in a more meaningful way might require some personal sacrifice. 
 
I will no respond further to this topic. It was initially posted to provide some insight for fellow Festool enthusiasts that may be considering initial iPad purchases or upgrades.

I didn't start this topic to invite personal abuse.

The hostile actions here lead me to question the value of my time and what I wish to achieve on this forum.

I was under the impression that I was forging several good online relationships with members ... but public cyber bullying is a very undesirable experience and something I will not tolerate ongoing.

It would be heart warming to hear from anyone that feels I have contributed positively in the FOG. Otherwise I should probably find alternate options - after all, talking tools and stuff is my relaxation time - I'm not doing it to increase my stress levels.

Thanks for reading.

Kev.
 
I just bought the new 16 gb ipad afew days ago.
I have never owned an ipad before.

My first impressions are that it is an awesome product.
Screen resolution is great.
Sound is great, though it could be much better with 2 speakers.
I think the camera is poor compared to the iphone 4.

It does exactly what i need it to do, so as a first time ipad buyer i am very happy.

How many movies can i get uploaded with 16 GB?

Cheers, Justin.

 
The contributions of all of our members are very valuable and appreciated by me, the moderators, our fellow members and Festool. One of the primary goals of this forum is to create an environment where all of our members from different backgrounds, skill levels and cultures can collaborate in a fun and positive way.

Let's keep it nice when we post, even when we get emotionally invested in the topic. This request isn't targeted at anyone in particular, but a friendly reminder for all of our forum members. If you can't say something positive in a nice way (it can be a negative opinion), just close your browser and come back later. We all share a common passion or interest for woodworking and in some cases other things like computers or photography. Let's share our knowledge and make this place a great resource on the web.

I take a very personal interest in making sure all of our members feel welcome and like valued contributors here. So much so that I spend my personal time here because I enjoy this forum and each of you. I consider a lot of you good friends that I've made over the years. I know it sounds cheesy, but it's true.

Now, back to constructive conversation.  [wink]

Thanks,
Shane
 
Amazing to me to see so many Apple bashers on this forum. I thought there were a lot of creative types here  [wink] . I'm sure there are lots of Windows bashers around as well but I'm always stunned at how emotional people get over this stuff.

FYI I'm pretty much a Windows user, except for iPhone 4S.  However, I really don't  think Apple products are over priced compared to their competition. A lot of the newer ultra books for example are nearly as much as Macbook air and it is relatively easy to spend as much on a high end Windows laptop as on a Macbook Pro. I've mainly stuck with Windows over the years to maintain my software investments. If I was starting from scratch, I certainly would be looking very seriously at Apple.

The bottom line is you really can't argue with success. Apple has created products people want and use and they have an excellent delivery and support system compared to most of their competition.

Eventually, Apple may indeed run out of steam, creatively and from a business perspective. Technology is such a volatile business segment.

Kev, thanks for your initial post on this. Not stuff I didn't already know but it's nice to have it confirmed from a real world user. Interestingly, just today my daughter sent a text asking if a 16GB iPad 2, brand new, was a good buy for $200. Her friend got a 64 GB one for Xmas and wanted to sell the 16GB one that she hadn't used. I told her if she didn't buy it I would!  [big grin] . While the new iPad is defintiely an improvement over the 2, since I wouldn't be using it on LTE, it doesn't have that many advantages over the 2
 
justinmcf said:
I think the camera is poor compared to the iphone 4.

The camera sensor in the iPad 3 is identical to the iPhone 4. The upgraded optics are identical to the 4S. So on the technical merits it should be as good or better than the iPhone 4 (absent a flash).

justinmcf said:
How many movies can i get uploaded with 16 GB?

If you are downloading from the iTunes store a 1080p movie would be around 4GB, a 720p around 3GB and the SD version around 1.5GB. When I purchased the iPad 1, iPad 2, and iPhone 4S, I went for 64GB thinking I was future proofing. The future came and it turns out that with the introduction of iCloud streaming there is a reduced need for storage on the device itself. So when I bought the iPad 3 I went for 32GB. The apps that take advantage of the Retina display are larger, but on balance with the streaming feature I found there is a dramatically reduced need for storage.

This is the first time in my 30+ year history with computing that my new computing device has needed less storage than my old device. I interpret that is marking the inflection point on the shift to cloud based computing.
 
Hi jbird.

Thanks for pointing out the optics with regards to the ipads camera. I really would liked to have aflash on the ipads camera.
I will try uploading a few movies tonight.
Cheers, Justin.
 
hockey_magnet said:
While the new iPad is defintiely an improvement over the 2, since I wouldn't be using it on LTE, it doesn't have that many advantages over the 2

The LTE is so fast that it's like being on broadband connected wi-fi everywhere you go. In fact it's faster than most home broadband connections in the USA. The problem in the USA is that the cost of the cellular data transfer has not come down and it is constricting innovation.

My other favorite feature is the cellular hot spot feature which comes at no added cost on Verizon LTE. This allows you to share the high speed LTE with your other devices over wi-fi. The day I got the iPad 3 is the day I cancelled the data plans to my families two other cellular capable iPads(saving me $40 USD a month). Which means that the LTE iPad will have paid for itself inside of 18 months.
 
JBird said:
The LTE is so fast that it's like being on broadband connected wi-fi everywhere you go.
fritter63 said:
That's what they said about 3G...

Who said it? Certainly not Apple. Apple is not even saying it now. I am just relating personal experience. There are many free speed test apps to verify this empirically.

Here is a 4G* speed test from my home, which sits in bit of a radio shadow (notice 3/5 bars)

[attachimg=#]

Here is another test run on 3G (4G disabled).

[attachimg=#]

Looks like a 6-7 times increase in throughput with almost half the latency.

* I know it says 3G in the image. The app has not been updated since LTE came out.
 
Kev, thanks for your honesty.  I have the iPad 2 & don't intend getting the 3.  Nothing against the 3 at all, it just that I love the 2.  If I was in the market for a new tablet then I would not hesitate to get the new iPad.  I am not saying that the "haters" for lack of a more suitable word are wrong but I wonder if they had an iPad for a month would they start to change their minds a little ?

I will be changing all my computers to Macs as the time arises.

On another note Kev, I really enjoy reading your posts & find them informative & funny.  Keep up the good work.  I am sure others feel the same way.

Alan.
 
Funny how tech progresses and is so high profile now that people are updating their devices yearly. Is this necessary? I admit to the allure of a fresh new gadget and often find myself buying the "latest and greatest" but the true test of a product is it's longevity. I'm not saying anything about any particular device, just the trend towards yearly upgrades of gadgets we're paying upwards of $500 for.

An honest question coz i don't know....what is the difference in hardware capabilities between the original ipad and the current iteration? How do these differences benefit or hinder your productivity?

To some gadgets are just toys and there's nothing wrong with that but for those that use them for work I'm curious.
 
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