New Kapex 120 REB - hot gearbox, oil from vents, table not level and more...

[ahairoffsquare]

Hi everyone,

I'm a solo handyman/cabinetmaker who, after difficulties with getting the accuracy I needed with other saws, was recently persuaded by a good salesman that Festool really did live up to it reputation and price as The Choice for precision. Consequently, I did something I never do, and made an unresearched purchase of a Kapex 120 REB on the day - mainly because I just needed something to get back to work.

Although I was pleased that it seemed to cut square out of the box, more and more issues have been unfortunately cropping up in the month since I took it home, to the point where I became  reluctant to use it.

I'll skip ahead here briefly and say yes, I have returned it for inspection (more on that later) and no - this is not a whinge or a rant. Rather,  I'm mainly looking to see if anyone else has run into these issues with their Kapexes, and whether mines an aberration from norm, or if this is what to expect from Festool in general.

In order:

1/ The vents from the motor spray substantial amounts of oil. Enough to need daily cleaning, or it drips onto work. I see some references here and there to 'oily films', but nothing about actual running liquid. Anyone know what this is from?



2/ The motor/gearbox housing gets very hot, VERY fast. Around 60C - enough to make you flich if you brush it - after a few minutes, even with no load. I've never had a saw, miter or otherwise, that gets this hot, and I regularly run some for hours at a time.
https://vimeo.com/640309059

3/The 0 degree stop...doesn't. It did at first but withing a week, it more or least ceased to function usefully.  Even the lightest of pressure and the body carries right past the stop when trying to return from a bevel. You can make it catch if you slowly, carefully inch it up to 0 degrees...but if this is what's needed, why have the stop at all?
https://vimeo.com/640309585

4/ The laser is easily a full mm out. I know this is adjustable, but the manual clearly states that it should be 'correct' from factory. How 'correct' is factory tolerances? Do most people normally have to dial it on themselves or should this be 'bang on'?
https://vimeo.com/640308896

5/The wings of the cut deck are not nor at the same height as the table. Rather, the combined surface is effectively bowed in a "U", with the work resting on high spots as the far edged of the wings, and 'hovering' off the table in the middle (I have seen this referred to elsewhere). This results in the squareness of vertical cuts depending on the length of the offcut and whether it rests on a high or low point. Extremely disappointing for a 'precision' tool and while I accept this isn't rocket surgery down to the micron, it's demonstrably enough to have a visible effect on regular cabinetry, resulting in hairline gap at beveled joints.
https://vimeo.com/640308704

6/ The whole saw pulsates with an irregular vibration when running, which it didnt when I first ran it. It's still mild, but  seems to be getting worse with time.

7/ Lowering the saw, even with the trigger depressed, still results in a hard 'catch' before the blade guard retracts. Often, quite excessive force is needed to actually operate this, and it's a very jarring and un-ergonomic. Again - unsure if this is normal, but it's getting worse with time.
https://vimeo.com/640308582

8/ Dust extraction is appalling. One thing I had heard prior to purchase was that these saws supposedly excelled at dust control, but even with a variety of different high-powered cyclone extractors, it's still the worst miter saw I've ever had in terms of spray. I've checked that theres no obstructions and can feel airflow thru the rear of the guard...it just doesn't seem to DO anything. I'd had to resort to two 100mm ducts with bellmouths on moveable arms, to try and tame the cloud on either side.

As I mentioned above - I have already contacted Festool and explained as much of this to them as I could.... I'll refrain from commenting further on those conversations at this stage, along with my own personal feelings on this whole matter. Suffice to say, I've done as they asked and made made the 3 hour round trip to return the saw to the place of purchase, and have been told I should expect a wait of 3-4 weeks. Meaning I'm now back where I started,  looking for a new saw again, simply because I can't afford to  stop work while I wait to see if this one  does come back any better. Only now, I'm $2000 poorer.

So. Should I expect these things to be fixed under warranty when it does get back, or is this just 'normal' for these tools?

Thanks in advance.

 

[semenza]

Yikes. That's  lot of problems!

      Just some general thoughts. I am sure that Festool will get this taken care of, and I think you got a lemon, or a saw that had issues and was returned and in some way fell through the cracks.

      I don't know about the temp. issue never even thought to check or noticed. The oil does seem excessive in the picture ....................  maybe those two are related?

      The head raise / lower issue is an adjustment type of thing.

      The table extensions -- I have the older model without them and have never seen the new one in person. So I am not sure about those.

      The DC? I have seen some people say that it is no better than on saw 'X' , etc. And generally the reports are that it is very good.  But this is the first I have read on it being truly bad. Not sure what's going on with that.

  I am sure others will post here with more details. I would say to check this or that but since you don't have the saw on hand ............................... 

Seth

 

[twistsol]

Nothing you have described matches my experience with my 13 year old Kapex and it all would unacceptable to me. I would expect all of the issues to be corrected with the exception of dust collection. It was the best on the market when it was introduced, but I don't believe that is the case any longer.

Below is a photo of more than a decade of accumulated oil on mine.

View attachment 1

 

[ahairoffsquare]

Thanks. Just to be clear - its not the adjustable extension arms that are the issue - the high points are on the wings on the main body itself (the areas marked with the "x" in the video). It's hard to show in the video but they both slope down as you head inwards towards the turntable - as if the whole thing has been bent in a "U". I suspect the casting has warped.

For the sake of my own reference I went down to the local generic hardware chain this arvo  and did the same check on the cheapest Makita I could find (which isn't even actually makita), which is about 20% the price of the kapex.
https://vimeo.com/640308252

As you can see - none of the same gaps. No gaps at all, in fact, on that one, or any of the others - even their $200 home-brand model.

i know some people are of the opinion that 'it's only woodworking, a few thou doesn't matter', but without getting onto that debate (which i thoroughly disagree with anyway) - if they can get it flat on a saw 1/10th the price,its should be flat on the Kapex.

 

[ahairoffsquare]

Nothing you have described matches my experience with my 13 year old Kapex and it all would unacceptable to me. I would expect all of the issues to be corrected with the exception of dust collection. It was the best on the market when it was introduced, but I don't believe that is the case any longer.

Below is a photo of more than a decade of accumulated oil on mine.

View attachment 1

Thanks. Takes me about 13 minutes to get what took you 13 years, it seems.

What do you think IS the best in terms of DC now?

 

[ChuckM]

Definitely a horror story!

Mine -- 6 years old EB model -- has had none of the issues you covered except that my laser was slightly off.

The DC is still great, used with a 36mm hose.

 

[twistsol]

Nothing you have described matches my experience with my 13 year old Kapex and it all would unacceptable to me. I would expect all of the issues to be corrected with the exception of dust collection. It was the best on the market when it was introduced, but I don't believe that is the case any longer.

Below is a photo of more than a decade of accumulated oil on mine.

View attachment 1

Thanks. Takes me about 13 minutes to get what took you 13 years, it seems.

What do you think IS the best in terms of DC now?

My brother in law just bought a Dewalt about a year ago although I don't know the model. Dust collection was about the same when hooked up to a Ridgid vac. Unfortunately the vast majority of miter saws on the market have a horizontal handle to the right of the blade and I am left handed. I could probably adapt if my Kapex ever dies, but I'm a grumpy old man that doesn't like change.

 

[ahairoffsquare]

My brother in law just bought a Dewalt about a year ago although I don't know the model. Dust collection was about the same when hooked up to a Ridgid vac. Unfortunately the vast majority of miter saws on the market have a horizontal handle to the right of the blade and I am left handed. I could probably adapt if my Kapex ever dies, but I'm a grumpy old man that doesn't like change.

One of my major reasons for getting this was having previously returned a the new Kikoki 36v cordless 260mm miter saw. While it has a lot of merits (including a fairly flat deck), I also can't stand the 'monkey bar' handle, which actually torqued the whole saw head enough to cause major blade deflection. Blade-aligned trigger grip is the superior option in terms of cut control. it's a pity more saws don't use it.

 

[Ron B]

I am left handed. I could probably adapt if my Kapex ever dies, but I'm a grumpy old man that doesn't like change.

I can relate-both being left-handed and grumpy.  Porter Cable at one time made a left-handed power saw which made all the difference in the world-no longer having to stand on the wrong side of the saw, and having the sawdust chute hitting my leg and diverting the sawdust up behind my safety glasses was a nice change.

Being left handed is a challenge-have to read veneer calipers upside down, gun cartridges ejecting toward your body and going down your shirt, scissors and tin snips cutting into your thumb because you have your fingers in the wrong holes, good reasons to stay on the grumpy side.

I would probably still be grumpy even if I were not left-handed, but that is because there are so many stupid people in the world. 

 

[ultane]

I hate that you are having problems. I hope Festool steps up to the plate and makes things right.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

[squall_line]

I almost wonder if this tool was dropped - HARD - on its head before it was purchased.  That would explain many of the issues seen, in my uneducated opinion.

 

[ahairoffsquare]

I almost wonder if this tool was dropped - HARD - on its head before it was purchased.  That would explain many of the issues seen, in my uneducated opinion.

I considered this too, but I can't see any signs of impact damage anywhere on it. Such a drop would maybe explain the bent deck, the laser misalignment....but the gearbox heat?

In any case, it seems like the consensus is that this ISN'T normal?

 

[squall_line]

A hard enough drop would knock things out of alignment internally: loose armatures, etc.  Blowing oil that is meant to keep the whole thing cool doesn't help heating issues, either.

But, yes, the consensus is that this is so far from normal that it's a shame that it's your first experience with the brand.

 

[Cheese]

In any case, it seems like the consensus is that this ISN'T normal?

No it's not normal, however have you sent a detailed list of all these problem issues to Festool Service?  More importantly, have you referenced the Kapex shop work order number or the Kapex repair ticket number to your list of problems? That's a must, otherwise Festool will do a visual check and what isn't caught by them will not be fixed. That's understandable...Festool can't fix what they can't see is a problem and your inspection of the Kapex may be a closer look-see than theirs. They don't have the luxury of time like you do.

The last thing you want is for Festool to solve let's say 6 of the 8 items, ship the Kapex back to you and then you have to send it off to Lebanon again for further adjustments. That's beyond frustrating.

For the best dust extraction make sure to use the shortest 36 mm hose you can that attaches to the dust extractor. I think mine is only 5-6 feet long. I've been toying with using a 50 mm hose to see if the dust extraction improves. Even with the 36 mm hose the dust extraction is pretty phenomenal.

 

[squall_line]

Pretty much everything Cheese said.

However, you used the term "whinge" instead of "whine", and talked about being out $2000 so far for the Kapex.  This leads me to believe that you may or may not be in the US, so comments about Lebanon (Indiana) may or may not apply.

[member=76802]ahairoffsquare[/member] , where are you located?

 

[ahairoffsquare]

In any case, it seems like the consensus is that this ISN'T normal?

No it's not normal, however have you sent a detailed list of all these problem issues to Festool Service?  More importantly, have you referenced the Kapex shop work order number or the Kapex repair ticket number to your list of problems? That's a must, otherwise Festool will do a visual check and what isn't caught by them will not be fixed. That's understandable...Festool can't fix what they can't see is a problem and your inspection of the Kapex may be a closer look-see than theirs. They don't have the luxury of time like you do.

The last thing you want is for Festool to solve let's say 6 of the 8 items, ship the Kapex back to you and then you have to send it off to Lebanon again for further adjustments. That's beyond frustrating.

For the best dust extraction make sure to use the shortest 36 mm hose you can that attaches to the dust extractor. I think mine is only 5-6 feet long. I've been toying with using a 50 mm hose to see if the dust extraction improves. Even with the 36 mm hose the dust extraction is pretty phenomenal.

I agree entirely. But I'd not be surprised if that's how it turns out.

To clarify, I'm in Australia - one of the more rural bits. So a return was always going to be a pain. One of my ...dissatisfactions in this has been that despite initially trying to contact Festool service Australia to articulate all of these issues clearly and directly and avoid unnecessary work for all involved, I was rather curtly told over then phone to just  'take it back to the shop for inspection'. Initially, all I wanted was clarification on whether the heat and oil was normal, and the best I could get was a noncommittal 'maybe, maybe not, wouldn't think so....probably'. I tried asking about the laser and the guards sticking, and before I was even done it was the same response - 'just take it back mate'. Travel times didn't seem to be something they considered - after all, it's not them making the trip I guess.

So with no further guidance forthcoming, I had no choice but to make that 3 hour drive. Unsurprisingly, the shop staff themselves were far less communicative than when they'd been trying to sell me the saw, and had zero interest in even looking at any of the issues at all. "No, we don't service or inspect any Festool - we send all of it away'. So they shortened everything down into a two-sentence summary on the 'returns' form (no photos, video, measurements - nothing), took the saw, and told me it'd be be up to a week before they even ship it to the service center in city, and 3-4 before I'd hear back from them.  I called Festool again and asked if I could speed this up by delivering it myself, and was told flatly no.

Forgive me if that sounds like a whinge, or a whine, but this all translates to downtime and further cost to me, and it's not what I'd describe as an efficient or professional system, to say the least.

 

[Cheese]

All of your tale is unfortunate.. however I’ve heard these stories several times before and unfortunately they all come from Australia. There seems to be a very real issue with the Aussie distributorship and this has been happening for years.

Best of luck to you, I’m just grateful for the Festool service we have in the US, it’s exemplary.

 

[ahairoffsquare]

All of your tale is unfortunate.. however I’ve heard these stories several times before and unfortunately they all come from Australia. There seems to be a very real issue with the Aussie distributorship and this has been happening for years.

Best of luck to you, I’m just grateful for the Festool service we have in the US, it’s exemplary.

Again - youre bang on. There's a whole other conversation there, not just about Festool Aus, but all tool brands and general corporate/commercial attitudes towards customers in Aus.

Just last year I actually made the big decision to switch nearly my entire cordless platform over due to repeated failures and lack of action or acknowledgment from the responsible company. As part of that, I'm still trying to find a suitable replacement for my problematic track saws....The TSC 55 KEB was the frontrunner candidate...

So in that sense, I can't really say what I'm seeing from Festool (so far) is any worse that what I've had from several other major brands. What I can say is my local tool store - a small independent sales and repair outfit that's been run by the one guy for nearly 30 years - has some very strong opinions about Festool based on his industry experience from when he used to be a stockist.

To be fair, this Kapex matter isn't over yet, so I'm trying to refrain from judging Festool too much too much. I just expected better. After all, that's what you're supposedly paying for, right?

 

[morts10n]

I have TONS of Festool stuff, but  i am branching out to other brands because they are failing in quality. When  i get reimbursed for 2 Kapex motor failures....I might change my mind

 

[ChuckM]

As a woodwooker for so many years, the thought of sticking to one brand (any brand) for my tools has never crossed my mind. May the best value -- price, performance and reliability, AND after sales service -- (regardless of brand, origin or color) win.