New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors

[gsdvorak]

I realize these are new and maybe not a lot of them in shops yet, but just curious if anyone has one in service, or has seen one at their dealer, or considered purchasing over another vendor (Oneida, ClearView, etc).  They look nice and have nice features, but most importantly- how do they perform?  Any help appreciated.

My potential use would be for 3 machines- table saw, 18" bandsaw, and 15" planer.

Thanks All!

Regards,
Gerald

 

[rljatl]

I bought the new P|Flux:3 HEPA 3hp version while they were on sale for 10% off at Woodcraft, but have not put it together yet.  Just had the garage wired with 220 and 110 outlets this week. 

I chose it because it was HEPA, mobile, and not too tall for my garage.  The HEPA versions have sound insulation (egg crate foam, I think) inside the enclosure.

Some people claim that dust collectors with the shorter cyclones do not separate as well as the longer cyclones.  However, Laguna claims to have tweaked their design to compensate for the shorter cyclone.

That's about all I know so far.
Laguna P|Flux:3

 

[Max Fracas]

[member=18283]RobBob[/member]

Please hurry up and get it into operation!  I'm also interested in one of these and would value your thoughts. 

 

[Xoncention]

[member=18283]RobBob[/member]

Please hurry up and get it into operation!  I'm also interested in one of these and would value your thoughts. 

The sensors monitoring the status of the filter and the drum is a nice idea.

 

[gsdvorak]

Thanks [member=18283]RobBob[/member] - that's actually the same model I'm looking at.  If you get it together, I would love to hear your feedback.

I talked to my local dealer- he said that he would bring one into stock for me and, if I didn't like it, he would just put it on the showroom floor.  I might have to take him up on that.

Gerald

 

[Huxleywood]

The salient issue with these and ones like them is that the short cyclone will have lower seperation percentages than the (correctly designed) taller cyclones.  IF you have the room for a taller cyclone they are a better option.

 

[antss]

Laguna altered the laws of physics ? [eek]

All they altered was their sales pitch I suspect.    [crying]

 

[Xoncention]

Laguna altered the laws of physics ? [eek]

The length of the cyclone can be shortened if the diameter is increased.  You can also angle the intake to alter the characteristics of the vortex.  You can also incorporate spiral separators.  Stokes law caters for these elements.

 

[RKA]

Add me to the list interested in feedback on these.  I would like to limit to 3hp and have limited vertical space in my basement which rules out the clearvue.

 

[junk731]

I talked to Bill Pentz 2 years ago about the short design, big fail with his testing. They all collect chips its what they miss and the resulting maintenance that are the concern. BS marketing is alive and well.

John

 

[rljatl]

I would take Bill Pentz and his website with a grain of salt if I were you.

Here is what Laguna says about their new dust collectors.  Time will tell how good or bad they really are.  Early reports are very positive.

"Airflow has been improved by the exclusive use of a single horizontal chute that allows air to freely flow into the canister.

The shape of the cyclone torso along with the inlet & exit vane placement have all been changed to create superior separation.

The build quality is second to none, high-end components throughout, world class fit & finish that you have come to expect from Laguna."

 

[Huxleywood]

Laguna altered the laws of physics ? [eek]

The length of the cyclone can be shortened if the diameter is increased.  You can also angle the intake to alter the characteristics of the vortex.  You can also incorporate spiral separators.  Stokes law caters for these elements.

I think it is the opposite, The optimum efficiency of a seperation (solid/gas) cyclone is found when X is the diameter of the intake barrel and the height of both the intake barrel and height of the cone are both 2X and the air outlet is 1/2X in diameter.  So every inch increase of barrel diameter require a 4 inch increase in overall height to remain the optimum shape. 

 

[Xoncention]

Laguna altered the laws of physics ? [eek]

The length of the cyclone can be shortened if the diameter is increased.  You can also angle the intake to alter the characteristics of the vortex.  You can also incorporate spiral separators.  Stokes law caters for these elements.

I think it is the opposite, The optimum efficiency of a seperation (solid/gas) cyclone is found when X is the diameter of the intake barrel and the height of both the intake barrel and height of the cone are both 2X and the air outlet is 1/2X in diameter.  So every inch increase of barrel diameter require a 4 inch increase in overall height to remain the optimum shape. 

I thought the object was to slow the speed of the air down so that the heavier particles lost their inertia and gravity took over?  We are not trying to create thrust from the air flow.  The balance between centripetal and centrifugal is the point where gravity brings about separation.  There are dust collection buckets out there that operate without a cyclone, they are just prone to blockage as the out feed side has a gauze filter that gets blocked quickly.  You can change the shape of a venturi to give the optimal air flow and particle separation.  You can also use gate valves to vary the air flow and change the separation point in the system, depending on the mass of the particles being processed.

 

[Huxleywood]

Laguna altered the laws of physics ? [eek]

The length of the cyclone can be shortened if the diameter is increased.  You can also angle the intake to alter the characteristics of the vortex.  You can also incorporate spiral separators.  Stokes law caters for these elements.

I think it is the opposite, The optimum efficiency of a seperation (solid/gas) cyclone is found when X is the diameter of the intake barrel and the height of both the intake barrel and height of the cone are both 2X and the air outlet is 1/2X in diameter.  So every inch increase of barrel diameter require a 4 inch increase in overall height to remain the optimum shape. 

I thought the object was to slow the speed of the air down so that the heavier particles lost their inertia and gravity took over?  We are not trying to create thrust from the air flow.  The balance between centripetal and centrifugal is the point where gravity brings about separation.  There are dust collection buckets out there that operate without a cyclone, they are just prone to blockage as the out feed side has a gauze filter that gets blocked quickly.  You can change the shape of a venturi to give the optimal air flow and particle separation.  You can also use gate valves to vary the air flow and change the separation point in the system, depending on the mass of the particles being processed.

I'll leave the fluid dynamics explanation to those that know more than show to spell it.  My experience is based on the textbook version of dust seperation design, that you see carried out in industrial and smaller commercial scale cyclones like Torit.  If your interpretation of the raltionship between height and diameter were correct you would see at least some short fat cyclones in industry.  Dust seperation cyclones, despite being realtively new to hobby/small shop woodworker is a very mature industry with over 100 years of refinement so there is likely little room for eficiency increase with the R&D budget of companies like Laguna, save some world changing light bulb moment that would be worth a fortune in the industrial world.  I am not saying Laguna has not increased their seperation efficiency, they indeed may have, but it is hard to imagine they have a short cyclone with seperation as high as the well designed taller cyclones.  Now, it should be noted that all the decent cyclones we have for our shops are fighting for the last few percent of seperation which depending on the machines you are collecting from may only make a small difference in filter packing if it is mainly chips or a huge difference in material past the cyclone if one does a lot of sanding. 

This is simply and area where all other things equal taller is almost always better.  However, many people do not have the vertical space to house a taller cyclone or they need it to be easily mobile, in those cases the squat cyclones makes sense. 

While not a complete explanation and deviod of engineering speak one has to remember the most dangerous particles do not fall out of suspension even in zero flow air so even if you drop the effective rate of air travel to near zero they will stay in suspension, of course this is part of the reason that when particle size gets small enough seperation is near zero even with the best designed cyclones.

 

[rljatl]

Lol.  I am sure the amount of separation will be just fine for my hobby workshop.

 

[Huxleywood]

Lol.  I am sure the amount of separation will be just fine for my hobby workshop.

I know the seperation stuff sounds like some Shakespeare Macbeth sound and fury but it is just as important in a small shop as in industry.  Lower seperation means higher filter loading, higher filter loading means more frequent filter replacement to keep good air volume.  While cleaning apparatus will help with this the smaller fines nest deep in the filter and are not stripped with the mechnical cleaners.  In the end we all must live with budget and space requirements, if one of both preclude a better cyclone so be it, but if space and budget allow, one will be better off in the long run, on several accounts (including likely cost), if they choose one of the better hobby level cyclones like Oneida or Clearvue. 

 

[junk731]

I would take Bill Pentz and his website with a grain of salt if I were you.

Here is what Laguna says about their new dust collectors.  Time will tell how good or bad they really are.  Early reports are very positive.

"Airflow has been improved by the exclusive use of a single horizontal chute that allows air to freely flow into the canister.

The shape of the cyclone torso along with the inlet & exit vane placement have all been changed to create superior separation.

The build quality is second to none, high-end components throughout, world class fit & finish that you have come to expect from Laguna."

Your their perfect customer, you believe their marketing and not proper design and mechanics of airflow to get optimum separation. But you are right it will work in your hobby workshop just not in any real world applications. Your also right about Bill and his team, all the thousands of hours testing in real world situations isn't very practical or important. Marketing BS really does baffle brains.

John

 

[Gregor]

[...]one has to remember the most dangerous particles do not fall out of suspension even in zero flow air so even if you drop the effective rate of air travel to near zero they will stay in suspension, of course this is part of the reason that when particle size gets small enough seperation is near zero even with the best designed cyclones.

Combine this with filters that let the ultra fine particles pass and you're ready to have a health problem...

 

[Holmz]

...
I thought the object was to slow the speed of the air down so that the heavier particles lost their inertia and gravity took over? 
...

Or it works like a centrifuge in a blood lab(??)
The blood never seperates from gravity, but in a centrifuge it seems to hpgo to plasma and solids pretty quick.

As long as the Laguna is not prone to a student attack, then one should be ok.

 

[RKA]

Aside from the cyclone design, laguna's 3hp hepa cyclone is advertised as being within 10% if the airflow of the 5hp clearvue (both have impellers almost equal in size), however the hepa filter surface area is 1/3 of the clearvue.  To me (the layman) that suggests either the laguna doesn't move as much air as they claim or the filter will require much more frequent replacement (or both).