New Laguna P-Flux Dust Collectors

[rljatl]

I would take Bill Pentz and his website with a grain of salt if I were you.

Here is what Laguna says about their new dust collectors.  Time will tell how good or bad they really are.  Early reports are very positive.

"Airflow has been improved by the exclusive use of a single horizontal chute that allows air to freely flow into the canister.

The shape of the cyclone torso along with the inlet & exit vane placement have all been changed to create superior separation.

The build quality is second to none, high-end components throughout, world class fit & finish that you have come to expect from Laguna."

Your their perfect customer, you believe their marketing and not proper design and mechanics of airflow to get optimum separation. But you are right it will work in your hobby workshop just not in any real world applications. Your also right about Bill and his team, all the thousands of hours testing in real world situations isn't very practical or important. Marketing BS really does baffle brains.

John

[member=4907]kcufstoidi[/member] And you are Clear Vue's perfect customer.  You drank the "Bill and his team" Kool-Aid.  Any dust collector not designed by Bill Pentz will cause heath problems and kill you.

Sorry my post ruffled your feathers. 

Did you read what I wrote above in reply #1?  I have not said that I believe anything.  Have not even put it together yet.

The Laguna P-flux is the only dust collector that had all the features I was looking for.  Simple as that.

My only point in quoting Laguna was to show that they have tried to tweak their design to compensate for the short cyclone.  They have not claimed that it is the equal to an optimized longer cyclone or anything else.  Their only claim is that it is an improvement from their old model.

Many people have been perfectly happy and healthy for years with the $200 Harbor Freight dust collectors, not to mention all the other dust collectors, including single stage units with non-HEPA filters that have been in use for years. 

 

[Xoncention]

...
I thought the object was to slow the speed of the air down so that the heavier particles lost their inertia and gravity took over? 
...

Or it works like a centrifuge in a blood lab(??)
The blood never seperates from gravity, but in a centrifuge it seems to hpgo to plasma and solids pretty quick.

As long as the Laguna is not prone to a student attack, then one should be ok.

: I guess the size of the screens in the centrifuge governs the separation that occurs in the plasma.  You are forcing a liquid made up of different constitutional elements with the goal of separation and reintegration after the filtering process has occurred.  Gravity has a limited affect in a closed compressed loop.  Unless there is an ionization there is no effective reactive to permit separation.

 

[junk731]

I would take Bill Pentz and his website with a grain of salt if I were you.

Here is what Laguna says about their new dust collectors.  Time will tell how good or bad they really are.  Early reports are very positive.

"Airflow has been improved by the exclusive use of a single horizontal chute that allows air to freely flow into the canister.

The shape of the cyclone torso along with the inlet & exit vane placement have all been changed to create superior separation.

The build quality is second to none, high-end components throughout, world class fit & finish that you have come to expect from Laguna."

Your their perfect customer, you believe their marketing and not proper design and mechanics of airflow to get optimum separation. But you are right it will work in your hobby workshop just not in any real world applications. Your also right about Bill and his team, all the thousands of hours testing in real world situations isn't very practical or important. Marketing BS really does baffle brains.

John

[member=4907]kcufstoidi[/member] And you are Clear Vue's perfect customer.  You drank the "Bill and his team" Kool-Aid.  Any dust collector not designed by Bill Pentz will cause heath problems and kill you.

Sorry my post ruffled your feathers. 

Did you read what I wrote above in reply #1?  I have not said that I believe anything.  Have not even put it together yet.

The Laguna P-flux is the only dust collector that had all the features I was looking for.  Simple as that.

My only point in quoting Laguna was to show that they have tried to tweak their design to compensate for the short cyclone.  They have not claimed that it is the equal to an optimized longer cyclone or anything else.  Their only claim is that it is an improvement from their old model.

Many people have been perfectly happy and healthy for years with the $200 Harbor Freight dust collectors, not to mention all the other dust collectors, including single stage units with non-HEPA filters that have been in use for years.

Yeah people still smoke heavily and drink to excess also say it doesn't cause health problems. That also why there are industry solutions to dust control and regulations that have to be followed, why because there is a problem. So what actual part of the research do you want me to take with a grain of salt? I have read a lot of Bill's research and discussed it with him personally, also have some friends that have health issues related to wood dust so yeh I take it seriously unlike others. If you have taken any time to do the research you would find that there are many DC's that Bill tested and worked great not just his own. If thats drinking the Pentz coolaid so be it. That doesn't take away the fact that the short cone seperators are a mediocre design no matter what sunshine they blow up your butt. Just for the record I did own a Clearvue CV1800 years ago, but now run a Felder RL160 which isn't based on any cyclone design. Enjoy your woodworking.

John

 

[grbmds]

I'm not sure most of this helps the guy who originally posted the question. I know that I don't understand completely the relationships between cyclone height, CFM, static pressure, etc. I do know that, by experience, if I have the space, I would always choose a standard cyclone for the best possible efficiency of collection.

Will the Lagun work for a non-production shop. Probably. The Oneida Dust Gorilla will most likely work also in the same scenario. Given that the machines from which dust will be collected are heavy duty dust/chip producers, I'd go for a more standard, stationary type cyclone. If space and electrical connections are issues, then the roll-around is a good option as long as only 1 machine is connected and being collected from at a time.

I would compare the stated HEPA filtration between the various collectors and manufacturers. I might be mistaken, but Oneida's HEPA filters filter a step above the standard HEPA specs. This might not seem like much, but it's that fine dust which is the real problem for health and the more of it that can be collected at the source, the better. Compare all the possibilities and some will drop out immediately as too expensive, won't fit in the shop, or aren't meant for exactly how you want to use it.

As I said, if you're only collecting from one machine at a time, like most of us who are part-time woodworkers, then the range of acceptable HEPA cyclone collectors increases significantly these days. I know some people appear to have had bad experiences with Oneida but I never have and I have found their equipment to be the best. I bought one of their first cyclones with an internal filter a couple of years after they started in business and it was amazing for its time. I recently upgraded to a V1500 and it is also amazing with much better filtration than my old one.

I do like the Laguna concept and the portability if that is what you are looking for.

 

[gsdvorak]

Thanks [member=19734]grbmds[/member] - Yeah, some of the replies are a little more in depth than I was looking for but appreciate the help.

I'm not necessarily looking for portability- in fact, if I got the Laguna I would possibly attempt to use without the casters.  I have a dedicated spot and circuit for the dust collector in my new shop and planned on running duct work to the three machines.  Height is not a concern either as my ceiling is 10+ feet (almost 11').  My dealer carries both Oneida and Laguna- I had been looking at a V3000 and he mentioned that he saw the Laguna units at IWF in Atlanta and thought that might be a good option since they are free freight and Oneida is not.  Both are HEPA and both somewhat quiet at around 76dB.  I like the 'handle' lift mechanism on the Laguna for the chip barrel but I will not sacrifice convenience for air quality.  Laguna makes some strong claims in this area and I was just curious if anyone had evidence of that themselves.  I'm naturally skeptical and that's why I don't buy much online or what a company claims.

I'd welcome any experience folks have had with the V3000 Oneida as well.

Regards,
Gerald

 

[rljatl]

I just had a bad experience with Oneida involving a Deluxe Dust Deputy.  The gray hose that came in the kit does not fit the cyclone.  Their hose does not fit their cyclone without adapters.

It took me a week with six calls and ten emails to finally get them to send me the adapters needed to use their hose on their cyclone.  They even made me send pictures and take measurements.

 

[grbmds]

Thanks [member=19734]grbmds[/member] - Yeah, some of the replies are a little more in depth than I was looking for but appreciate the help.

I'm not necessarily looking for portability- in fact, if I got the Laguna I would possibly attempt to use without the casters.  I have a dedicated spot and circuit for the dust collector in my new shop and planned on running duct work to the three machines.  Height is not a concern either as my ceiling is 10+ feet (almost 11').  My dealer carries both Oneida and Laguna- I had been looking at a V3000 and he mentioned that he saw the Laguna units at IWF in Atlanta and thought that might be a good option since they are free freight and Oneida is not.  Both are HEPA and both somewhat quiet at around 76dB.  I like the 'handle' lift mechanism on the Laguna for the chip barrel but I will not sacrifice convenience for air quality.  Laguna makes some strong claims in this area and I was just curious if anyone had evidence of that themselves.  I'm naturally skeptical and that's why I don't buy much online or what a company claims.

I'd welcome any experience folks have had with the V3000 Oneida as well.

Regards,
Gerald

Despite the last comment concerning the Dust Deputy, Oneida has produced very solid cyclone dust collectors for close to 25 years (maybe longer than that). I think the Dust Deputy was a venture into a product line that they shouldn't have ventured into. Not sure why they did it; profit motive I suppose. I never thought that product was worth much. Their regular cyclones, on the other hand, are top notch. If you have the room and can wire (or are wired for 220V), the 3000 would be something you would never regret buying. I would tell you that their V series cyclones do give new meaning to the words "some assembly required". While the instructions are very good, the task is a little time-consuming and, while not really complicated, generated a little uncertainty for me while doing it. I only have the 1500, but it is extremely quiet, generating only an air movement noise from the flywheel rather than any motor noise. It is very effective and keeps the air clean. I use it for my jobsite saw, router table, 8" jointer, 13" planer, and my bandsaw. In all cases, the collection improved over the first one I bought 20 years ago. I didn't think that was possible.

 

[grbmds]

I just had a bad experience with Oneida involving a Deluxe Dust Deputy.  The gray hose that came in the kit does not fit the cyclone.  Their hose does not fit their cyclone without adapters.

It took me a week with six calls and ten emails to finally get them to send me the adapters needed to use their hose on their cyclone.  They even made me send pictures and take measurements.

[member=18283]RobBob[/member] Just so you don't t think I ignored your comments. I think I have seen the most negative feedback about Oneida on the Dust Deputy products, especially the Deluxe. I actually bought one of those for my Fein vac. While I didn't have problems with it, it was just a pain as an add-on; in my way and, since I now don't use my Fein for too much except cleanup, I just stopped using the Deluxe. It was an innovative concept but seemed to cause them a lot of problems. They should support all their products equally and don't understand the lack of response. They've always been very responsive to e with both my dust collectors, even over the 20 years I owned the first one.

 

[rljatl]

Believe me, I looked at them all.  Clear Vue, Oneida, Penn State, Jet, Bailey and Laguna.  Even had a spreadsheet to make it easier to compare.  You know what?  I still think the Laguna is by far the best of the lot given the parameters I have to work with. 

I am not much of a believer in magazine tests, (Advertisers pay their salary) but...
Clear Vue was tested in Wood Magazine March 2014 page 74.
It pretty much failed their tests.  After they tested it, they stated it returned 20 times more dust than the Oneida tested the year before.

Read the whole thread from Sawmill Creek.  I think they fairly covered all the bases.  Note the mention of the Woodwhisperers review of the Clue Vue.  He preferred the Oneida.
Sawmill Creek - Clear Vue thread

 

[clark_fork]

Believe me, I looked at them all.  Clear Vue, Oneida, Penn State, Jet, Bailey and Laguna.  Even had a spreadsheet to make it easier to compare.  You know what?  I still think the Laguna is by far the best of the lot given the parameters I have to work with. 

I am not much of a believer in magazine tests, (Advertisers pay their salary) but...
Clear Vue was tested in Wood Magazine March 2014 page 74.
It pretty much failed their tests.  After they tested it, they stated it returned 20 times more dust than the Oneida tested the year before.

Read the whole thread.  I think they fairly covered all the bases.  Note the mention of the Woodwhisperers review of the Clue Vue.  He preferred the Oneida.
Sawmill Creek - Clear Vue thread

Regarding price points,  why not consider those under $2,000, specifically  Jet ?:
http://www.woodcraft.com/product/421814/jet-cyclone-dust-collector-2hp.aspx

Are there any specific issues with these imports? They claim pleated bags down to 1mm etc.

On a practical side, why do they all claim to require two person assembly?

 

[rljatl]

The reason they recommend two people is because the motors are very heavy and you have to lift them up to a fairly high point.

Paid about $2,000 for my Laguna 3hp HEPA, the newest model, too.  I hit an introductory 10% off sale.

 

[blaszcsj]

[member=18283]RobBob[/member] so how do you like the Laguna and what do you have it hooked up to.

 

[Huxleywood]

Now the OP has established he has the height and lack of portability needs that allow most any of the hobby oriented cyclones it now comes to to a budget vs features vs efficacy vs fan curve vs ease of installation balance, the key here being this equation will be different for everyone. 

Quality 3rd party tests of all the available cyclones are near non-existent, the Wood magazine test of the CV is almost certainly based on a leaky system, it is too much of an outlier especially when it uses a known quality filter. 

I personally have owned a Oneida DGP, CV Max and a Chicago Blower/Torit all with 15 MERV or better filters and my particle meter tells me they were all very effective, the only machines/tools I wasn't/am not happy with were/are my 50" drum sander and miter saw but these were issues with capture more a result on the tool end. 

I get the short cyclones like the Laguna are a compelling solution, it is a one stop shop DC in a box.  All the bells and whistles are built in and you don't have to moonlight as an electrician to get them up and running with a remote and bin sensors.  Assuming no leaks (the best way to test is a Dylos) ALL the various flavors of DC will return air to the work space that is directly correlated with the quality of the filters.  These filters will last longer and allow acceptable flow longer with more surface area. 

There is nothing magic about DC it is simply impeller size/shape, hp to match the impeller, efficacy of seperation and post seperation filtration efficacy along with proper ducting and optimized capture at the machine.  The biggest place one can screw up picking a cyclone is poor filters, someone mentioned the Jet, the filters on the Jet are not HEPA. 

I know the Laguna is a neat package deal, some would call it stylish and if you follow Torben's lead even sexy but I subscribe to the idea that a cyclone is like a creepy uncle, best not seen or heard, build the cylone in, put your bin alarm on the outside and life in the shop is better, if you need sexy paint the cyclone "box" in grey and green and put framed pictures of a Domino in slinky dress on the walls. 

Someone mentioned sound pressure levels from the manufacturers.  Forget these, except MAYBE when comparing across one companies units.  Without a distance, the weighting and the environment they are measured in (2 pi, 4pi space etc) these numbers are useless.  In Europe they have standards by which machine SPL must be measured to meet certain regulations, the cyclones we have aren't regulated in that way so the manufacturer's numbers should not be given any weight.  Honestly fan curves from the manufacturers need to be taken with the same grain of salt, save comparing across a single manufacturers range.

The short cyclones will work, they just have higher filter loading which means more maintenance and more frequent filter replacement and if they are going to be permanently piped in and you plan to pipe across the ceiling given that they are short you are either going to increase static pressure or have a long gradual rise to the main run both of which are not ideal. 

DC is about the most contentious subject on wwing forums, it ain't sexy, it ain't cheap (unless you run your shop open and move a lot of air through it) but it poses the most danger of anything in the shop.  Many people work in a wood shop 40 hours a week for their entire working life and never have a serious flesh and bone injury but every person that works any significant time in a woodshop will have their respiratory system negatively impacted to some degree whether they realize it or not.  My opinion is build the best DC system you can afford and if budget/space/power allow then get one of the tall cyclones, preferably 5hp, optimize the capture at the machine and run ambient HEPA filters during and after you leave the shop.  As an alternative one could wear a respirator all the time, for me if I had to do this I would probably shift to my other hobbies since I hate them and will only wear them when spraying. 

 

[Bohdan]

The short cyclones will work, they just have higher filter loading which means more maintenance and more frequent filter replacement ....

Totally agree. For the same air flow the final filter is what contols the quality of extraction, unless there is a leak.

 

[rljatl]

[member=18283]RobBob[/member] so how do you like the Laguna and what do you have it hooked up to.

Filters can be safely cleaned with an air compressor set to no more than ~60 lbs of pressure.  Blow it from the outside in.  I have an acquaintance who does this with his Clear Vue and a friend that does it to his Oneida.

Also, my shop is shared with two cars in my garage.  Routine daily use opening and closing the garage doors a few times a day will help to keep the air refreshed.

[member=45856]blaszcsj[/member]
Just finished wiring the garage for 220v this week.  The Laguna is still in it's box although I did have the electrician put a 220v 30amp twist lock plug on it.
Here is what it will be hooked up to:
1. jointer/planer combo
2. bandsaw
3. jobsite table saw

Other possibilities:
1. drill press
2. miter saw (was planning to use my Crapsman shop vac plus Deluxe Dust Deputy)

I have a Festool CT26 for my Festool and other brands of handheld power tools.

All this is a work in process.  I am sure that machines and tools will be moved around and reorganized many times.  Everything must be on wheels.  I've got a long way to go.

First project since moving from the basement to the garage will be a mobile sheet goods storage rack.

 

[RussellS]

I asked one of the lung specialist if wood dust cause lung disease. He answered "No" with no hesitation or reservation.

True.  But wood dust is not a reactive element.  It is inert.  There are no chemicals inside of wood that react with human cells and cause mutations.  Cancer.  Lung disease.  It would be similar to someone who operates a grinder or sharpening wheel.  The stone particles that break off do not cause any change in the humans who get them into their lungs.  But enough of the inert particles would likely kill someone.  Breathe enough wood dust and you will choke and gasp for breath.  Enough of the particles in your lungs and you will die.  Your question to the lung specialist is trying to make wood dust seem like cigarette smoke.  Cigarette smoke reacts with human cells and changes them.  Causes cancer.  Wood dust is not the same as cigarette smoke.

 

[grbmds]

Whether or not dust causes lung disease isn't really relevant to the original question, is it? The original post asked about experience with the Laguna dust collectors, not whether you believe a dust collector saves you from lung disease. How about getting back to the original question? Plus, a guy who spends paragraphs discussing the dangers of wood dust and how to take fine dust out of the air in your shop (Bill Pentz) allegedly feels that wood dust doesn't contribute to lung disease? That's a little hard to believe but, you know, everyone can do what they feel is best for them.

 

[Bohdan]

The disease is called silicosis and is caused by exposure to crystalline silica - the type that is present to various degrees in wood dust.

 

[blaszcsj]

[member=18283]RobBob[/member] hurry up  I'm interested to see how this thing performs from a real user so I can get one.

Cheers!

 

[ndrew]

This is a bit of a late reply and those interested in the Laguna P|Flux and C|Flux may have already seen this: an in-depth review of the Laguna C|FLUX and P|FLUX. It's at least got some objectivity about performance, as it compares the amount of MDF dust caught by the filters in both the new models and the previous generation machine. Spoiler: whatever they've done with the new design seems to have improved efficiency markedly.

Laguna CFLUX1 and PFLUX1 Dust Collection Cyclone "Deep Dive" Examination