New membership numbers on the FOG

[HarveyWildes]

I started watching FOG this year after I got a Domino.  The Domino was a game changer, and I wanted to hear more about what other people were doing and also curious about other Festool tools. 

In the future, I want to hear stuff that will make me a better, more efficient, better quality woodworker:

(1)  Projects, with info on how it was done, and particularly how challenging problems were solved.
(2)  Questions about Festool (or other) tools where the answers have some practical value to me.
(3)  Tips on using tools effectively.  Any tools, though I expect the focus to be on Festool.
(4)  Tool reviews with a focus on how particular tools help to solve those problems.  I expect reviews to steer me away from tools that will not be helpful.
(5)  I love the shop organization stuff - how people build sys-racks, MFT tops, etc. etc.  I currently have a backlog of that kind of stuff on my project list because of this forum.
(6)  Discussion of events.  I learned about the local Festool truck event via this forum, and the hands on experience I got at the event was very helpful in choosing a Festool sander and vacuum.  And I did finally get a PRO 5 sander which is behaving very nicely for me.
(7)  I don't mind civil controversy or disagreement if the focus is on the above.  Creative people working on creative problems are going to favor different solutions, with a lot of factors coming into play - type of project, available tools, economics, and all kinds of other things.  Often it's hearing the discussion about why people make the decisions they do that is most informative.  For example, if person A loves a track saw because they can use it effectively on site while doing remodels, I might admire their use of the saw, but not feel like it would help me much in my shop.  If person B describes how to use a track saw effectively in their shop to solve a problem that I've had in the past, I might be tempted.  But it's not like either one has the final say on using track saws.

So for those of you with more experience than I have, thanks for the contributions and discussions, and keep it coming.  (And almost everyone has more experience than I have in some area or another.)

And I hope that at least some of my posts are interesting to enough people to justify the time and effort.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Lots of finger pointing here as to the reason of the decline.

Could it perhaps also be that the market is just saturated?

Looks to me you need people with two interests for a forum like this:
1 - people who like to work with Festool tools.
2 - people who like to talk on forums.

I don't think there is an endless supply of those.

Besides that, just an observation of me, as a long time user, I agree quality content has gotten down a lot. Quality contributors have stopped posting their how-to videos and projects, and this forum has changed into an extension of Festool's service department. Getting tired of the umpteenth "Which sander" post, or the gazillionth "My tool is broken" thread.

As for politics, I don't understand why people complain, every discussion here that even hinted in that direction has been nipped in the bud for as long as I know. I don't mind talking politics, but if people don't want it, fine, there's plenty of places to do so. 

 

[Svar]

Could it perhaps also be that the market is just saturated?

Exactly. The number of FOG members correlates with the number of Festool owners. The latter can not grow forever.

Besides that, just an observation of me, as a long time user, I agree quality content has gotten down a lot.

Also agree, but I see it at a different angle. There is a limited number of tricks, for example, to make a narrow rip with TS or joint panes with Domino, etc. Topics get recycled and if you've been on FOG for many years its get boring to see same stuff discussed over and over again.

 

[Svar]

Ok I yield.

Maybe, judging by the responses, politics and contentious current affairs would not be the best for this forum.

I don't think the concept is wrong, as it works fine on other forums, but maybe the average blue collar demographic of a powertool forum's user base isn't the right one compared with the type of people who frequent, for example; high-end HiFi forums or photography groups, etc.

Maybe the average FOG user isn't so well versed in such topical and potentially contentious discussions, so it's easier for it to breakdown into anarchy than be discussed in a mature and civilised manner.

Substitute "average FOG user" with "human being" and I agree. Maybe I'm visiting wrong forums, but I have yet to see a discussion of contentious political affairs among largely anonymous users ever ending in a mature and civilized manner.

 

[TylerC]

Could it perhaps also be that the market is just saturated?

Exactly. The number of FOG members correlates with the number of Festool owners. The latter can not grow forever.

I'd adjust this to say that the number of FOG readers correlates with the number of Festool owners.

Festool is still growing, and the FOG is still growing in regard to page views. What's declining is the number of new posts, new topics and new members. IMO part of why we're seeing an increase in readership and a decrease in participation is because many of the questions/tips about our most popular tools -- TS 55/75, Rotex sanders, Domino, etc. -- have already been covered. New tools owners are able to get answers/advice/ideas without creating an account or posting anything.

 

[alkaline]

[member=57769]TylerC[/member]

It is true.

 

[mikeomalley]

RMW, Agree with your post.
Mike

 

[Scott B.]

I have felt for a while that the internet "golden age" of Festool has passed. I was not basing this on forum participation but on user generated content like Youtube videos and fan sites. Just off the top of my head:

1. Paul-Marcell at HalfInchShy no longer generating Festool videos
2. Wood Whisperer no longer using Festool
3. Bryce Burrell not generating content lately
4. Eric from The Popular Shop seems to be  losing Festool enthusiasm and moving to Bosch
5. Dave Reinhold slowing production of content
6. Braden Stadlman no longer producing content

The only prolific creator of Festool content that I am aware of right now is Peter at New Brit Workshop and he seems to be decreasing the proportion of his content dedicated to Festool. Naturally, any individual creator can tire of what they are doing and want to pursue other interests. But taken in the aggregate, and in the absence of new content producers, it seems like a profound change.

However, I would not extrapolate any of this to the health of Festool USA. They appear to be doing very well.

This is an interesting point, but I’d counter it by pointing to content creators like Kiefer Limeback (Toolaholic), Paul Sprague (Toolpig), Drywall Nation, Toolify, David Stanton, A Concord Carpenter, Canadian Woodworks and others. Not all of this is video content, but they’re all doing interesting things.

None of these guys is 100% Festool, but I personally prefer it that way. I appreciate that we’re getting more content from people who use tools from a variety of manufacturers and can’t be accused of “drinking the green Kool-Aid”.

I don’t see a drop in user-generated content. I think it’s just coming from a different people — and possibly getting less content from more people.

I wouldn't call that a "Golden Age" of content. The best must surely lie ahead.

 

[tjbnwi]

A synopsis of my forum habits;

I post only when I have something worth (in my opinion) posting.

When I do something interesting I'll share it. If I come up with a new (to me) process or technique, I'll share it, most often through an unedited video. I come back to answers questions that may arise from my posts.

Still working on the best way to convey the application of Kem Aqua.

I do stop by here a couple of times a day to check on the recent posts. If I have a solution to a question asked, I'll post it.

Tom

 

[Scott B.]

A synopsis of my forum habits;

I post only when I have something worth (in my opinion) posting.

When I do something interesting I'll share it. If I come up with a new (to me) process or technique, I'll share it, most often through an unedited video. I come back to answers questions that may arise from my posts.

Still working on the best way to convey the application of Kem Aqua.

I do stop by here a couple of times a day to check on the recent posts. If I have a solution to a question asked, I'll post it.

Tom

Tom, that is how forums should be, people helping people. Its a dying art.

I think this post is getting at the bigger picture of online behavior, which we have all seen social media dominate. And there are reasons for that.

To those who feel that Festool doesn't put appropriate personnel resources into the FOG, which has I believe about 46k members...who apparently come to see content creators as listed above...who apparently lose interest in talking about Festool over time for whatever reasons...

Understand that on social media, Festool Facebook has like 111k followers and Instagram has about 66k and youtube has almost 29k and Twitter nearly 15k.

And you know what? Those pages are loaded with users sharing their own projects using the tools...guess what, because its just fun.

So, we all love to armchair quarterback this mfr, but where would you put your resources? (be objective, as always)

Historically, as a member of many forums that fell into shallow graves they could never rise out of, there is some odd sense of entitlement that sometimes comes with forum membership.

 

[Kev]

The convenience of FB, Twitter, Instagram, etc on mobile devices can make the interaction format of these traditional forums unattractive to many.

Things evolve .. you can either work with the change or hang on to what you're familiar with - but not forever!

The wider interacting Festool community is going through change and it'll take time. Consider for a moment that you may dislike FB for some reason - the fact that FB will instantly translate (and do a pretty good job) a German comment into English for you is pretty cool [wink]

"the only constant is change"

 

[Tyler Ernsberger]

It think there a lot of good points being brought up.  I use to look at FoG everyday and enjoyed it.  In my option some thing has changed,  not sure if it was me or the FoG.  I really like the projects and tool reviews and there has not been a lot of this lately.  One of my favorite projects was imnothim's bench build.  He not only did a great job with his build but also with his posts. 

I'm personally really worn out by the Kapex drama.  It seems like every couple of weeks more posts about a Kapex dieing and the person being upset and the band wagon that follows.  I went to buy a Kapex today and I couldn't do it with all the motor problems and I wasn't willing to take the risk. I really feel Festool doesn't care about the problem and/or reassured the consumer about the issue.  The last thing that really upset me was the hk saws not being able to cut 2x on a 45 degree bevel.  It's NOT a construction saw if it can't cut a 45 bevel on a 2x.  There was not any attempt to offer a blade 3mm bigget or any other solution to this problem.  None of this is Fogs fault,  I just started looking at other solutions and manufactures.  I've also been on instagram a lot.  Not a lot of drama on there and it's really cool seeing projects and tool reviews.  I do still use Festool Prodcuts everyday and do consider some of their products to be innovative.  I still look at FoG from time to time and I really do miss the members that don't contribute anymore on Fog,  but some of them are on Instagram and if you look you can find them.

  I'm excited to hear that the FoG wI'll be updated.  It doesn't work well with my phone and when I post with a pictures I lose everything when I hit the post botton.  It's very frustrating so I stopped postin being I can only post with pictires from my computer. 

Please don't hate me for what I wrote.  I do still care about the fog and will continue to stop in.  I will continue to drink Kool aid just not as much as I used to. 

 

[Paul G]

Maybe the average FOG user isn't so well versed in such topical and potentially contentious discussions, so it's easier for it to breakdown into anarchy than be discussed in a mature and civilised manner.

You know, I'm having trouble coming up with a response to this that would allow me to retain my forum status here.

Yea, us knuckle dragging dust makers are better off leaving politics to those smarter folks.  [blink]

 

[Kev]

Maybe the average FOG user isn't so well versed in such topical and potentially contentious discussions, so it's easier for it to breakdown into anarchy than be discussed in a mature and civilised manner.

You know, I'm having trouble coming up with a response to this that would allow me to retain my forum status here.

Yea, us knuckle dragging dust makers are better off leaving politics to those smarter folks.  [blink]

OK ... politics. Now let's just position this from a perspective that this is a forum for people that either use tools for enjoyment, professional income or to save money and that several of those tools could be Festools. Let's also consider that the cost of the tools, the energy we use to power them, the people we may employ to use them and the materials the tools are actually used on are important to forum members.

Every part of the above has potential for numerous splinter topics of political nature. Add legal, safety, education, cadetships, apprenticeships, etc and BANG you'll have oodles of politics with smatterings of religion everywhere.

Personally I think it's a shame that the forum rules are such that we can't openly discuss certain things ... specifically in the areas of business where many, many people here are probably more aware of reality than some politicians with their biased ranks of advisors.

The reason I believe that politics (and religion, etc) won't survive discussion on the FOG is that some people to this day take offence at others having a different view to their own, rather than simply respecting it and possibly trying to understand it, they attack it. Debating and potentially agreeing to respectfully disagree is very hard for many people.

 

[Paul G]

[member=13058]Kev[/member] I tend to agree with the no politics rule, especially considering the international aspect of the forum, I was more so addressing the tone of condescension that was coming through the earlier post, as if FOG members are too ignorant to understand political matters.

It's the prohibition of discussing tool mods and anything deemed unsafe that hinders some interesting, useful and topically relevant discussion. I understand the liability concerns but am not sure they are warranted, but it's not my bacon that would be in the frying pan.

 

[TylerC]

As promised, here are my thoughts on the questions/comments on the 2016 State of the FOG. None of this is the "official Festool position" or anything. It's just my personal and candid thoughts. Here goes:

1. I took a deep look at the FOG stats, and I found some interesting things.
• New topics, new posts and new members pretty clearly peaked in 2014 and 2015. The 2016 numbers here are pretty similar to 2013 numbers. However, there was also a drop in 2012 before an increase in 2013, so things can turn around.
• New members had a really dramatic spike in 2014 and 2015. That spike ended last autumn. Honestly, this isn’t a big surprise to me, because increasing FOG memberships hasn’t been a big focus for us this year. When we launch our new websites for North America this spring, we’ll do more to direct people toward the FOG.
• Despite the drop in new topic/posts/members, 2016 was the FOG’s biggest year yet for Page Views. My theory for this is that many people are now using the FOG to find answers to previously asked questions. By this point, most of the critical questions about — for example — the TS 55 — have already been asked on the FOG. Therefore, new TS 55 owners are getting their questions answered without having to create an account or post anything.

2. When we talk about “Festool being less active”, let’s be clear what we mean: I am not as active as Shane was/is. That’s true. Guilty as charged. To best honest, I’m personally never going to be as active as Shane. That said, I definitely should be more responsive, and I will make a concentrated effort to do better in 2017.

3. I’m working to get more global resources for the FOG next year. Phil and I represent only a small part of the world, and the FOG is increasingly becoming a global community. There are a lot of questions that I simply don’t have an answer to as a US employee. Furthermore, as a US employee, it’s difficult for me to justify spending too much time working with non-US issues. I don't know the what/when/how of this yet, but I think that it will be beneficial to everyone.

4. I’m planning to create a survey in the next week or two to get some quantitative beginning-of-year feedback. One struggle with something like the FOG is that everyone’s vision/likes/dislikes are slightly different. Threads like this a good, but they only include the feedback of a handful of people. I hope that the survey gives some helpful insight.

5. There are a LOT of people who just read the FOG and don’t post. (see #1, bullet 3) Is there a way to get those people to start engaging? I’m not sure, but I’d like to try. Hopefully, the aforementioned survey will give a look into that. Which leads me to the next point.

6. There is often a negativity on the FOG that turns people away. Honest feedback and frank discussions are necessary — even when it’s difficult to be on the receiving end of — but the negativity is something that I hear about from people regularly. During Roadshow stops this year, I had a nearly identical conversation with three separate people.

Person: “Are you Tyler from the FOG?”
Me: “Yes, what’s your FOG username?
Person: “Oh, I don’t post. I just read. Those guys are vicious. I don’t feel comfortable posting there.”

Most interactions that I see on the FOG are positive, helpful and productive, but I hear this kind of thing too often to ignore it.

7. Sorry, [member=60286]bobfog[/member], but politics is a non-starter. Personally, I love a good political debate, but the FOG simply isn’t the place for it. (And it looks like most people agree on this point.)

8. Lastly, I hate making excuses, but —as one of Festool’s two representatives on the FOG — I'd like to give a little insight from where I'm coming from. There is a huge Festool learning curve, and I wasn't hired for my technical tool/woodworking expertise. During the FOG’s 2014/2015 peak, Shane had been with Festool and on the FOG for about 7 years (if I have my history right), and he’d built up an incredible knowledge and history during that time. I joined Festool and the FOG last year, and I was drinking from the fire hose. Part of the reason why I was respond is simply because I didn’t know the answer, and sometimes tracking down answers takes a while. Quite frankly, I was also intimidated by the FOG, because many of you guys knew more than I did. I know that this has tried some of your patience, but I appreciate that patience nonetheless.

 

[ear3]

Thanks for the thoughtful and honest reply.  I think there's certainly a case to be made that in terms of the numbers 2016 could just as easily be reversion to the mean rather than signaling decline.  Looking forward to seeing the new initiatives. 

 

[Stephen B]

Thanks [member=57769]TylerC[/member] , an honest reply and one that just about sums up all that has been presented. I look fwd to a new technical beginning with the software update.

It would be great if additional Festool reps could be involved. 'One for the Aussies' reflects angst down here amongst some customers. Rather than 'Kapex' issues [eek] [smile]; down here this angst reflects the scope of 'Service all Inclusive' and Australian pricing structures. Although a seperate identity, a voice from Festool Aust as represented by Tooltechnic Aust. would be proactive and welcome.

 

[mrboult]

Thanks [member=57769]TylerC[/member] a good summary.

It's sad to hear of people keeping away from the FOG due to the "bad attitude" except for occasional examples, I'm not sure I've seen much of that here myself.

I totally appreciate your contributions here, along with Phil at Festool UK, and would never offer criticism to either of you. I think it is painfully obvious that Festool HQ does not have much interest in contributing to the FOG. And Personally i think that is a mistake.

In regards to the social media side of things... I am not too in the loop on these things, but i am yet to personally find ANYTHING of interest on Festool UK Facebook or Twitter! Mostly just people making irrelevant # or @ comments to their friends or simply rubbishing Festool based on cost. So i don't really see how those avenues are worthwhile investments of staff time above the FOG. Actually thinking about it, i also don't see anything that suggests anyone from festool is actually devoting any notable time to those sites either - but like i said I'm not there very often.

The FOG is a great resource and i hope it continues for a long time. Sorry to those who feel their long time hang out isn't what it used to be, but that's life, people move on. There are many forms i was once a big part of that i haven't visited for years.

While I'm here - thanks to the mods! Peter & Seth your time is also much appreciated. Thank you.

 

[TylerC]

I think it is painfully obvious that Festool HQ does not have much interest in contributing to the FOG. And Personally i think that is a mistake.

I'll disagree with you on this. A year ago, it was possibly true, but more and more folks at HQ are learning about the FOG and seeing the value. They're paying more and more attention, and I think it's just a matter of time before you see the fruit of that.