new multi battery charger inverter power supply

Spandex said:
Tbh, no one on here will buy one anyway, because it’s in the new Systainer3 design... ;)

The basic design of em is pretty good, only problem being they lost the good idea about the heights playing well together down the back of the sofa.
Its easy enough to sort, just make the heights slightly different.
 
Spandex said:
Tbh, no one on here will buy one anyway, because it’s in the new Systainer3 design... ;)

If Festool puts label holders on the side of the powerstation I might be more open.
 
demographic said:
The basic design of em is pretty good, only problem being they lost the good idea about the heights playing well together down the back of the sofa.
Its easy enough to sort, just make the heights slightly different.
They didn’t accidentally drop the height system. They did it on purpose. They’re not going to ‘sort’ it out because there’s nothing to sort out. They’ve made a decision.
 
I agree with Spandex.  Just going to have to take it on the chin - anything else is just hot air.  Also, I don't see Festool explaining, or justifying themselves, wrt their 'commercial' decisions.
 
Spandex said:
They didn’t accidentally drop the height system. They did it on purpose. They’re not going to ‘sort’ it out because there’s nothing to sort out. They’ve made a decision.

Aye, just like the decision about not making an 18 volt impact screwdriver.
Oh, hang on a bit... [wink]
 
Spandex said:
They didn’t accidentally drop the height system. They did it on purpose. They’re not going to ‘sort’ it out because there’s nothing to sort out. They’ve made a decision.

Jeez, You  really enjoy telling people to get over this issue don’t you. Not sure why you are so against people voicing their opinions on the new sys3.

I’m pretty sure everyone here is fully aware of how unlikely it is our venting will affect Festools decisions. But talking festool is kinda what this forum is about, and if lots of users have a dislike I think posting it here is pretty reasonable.

 
[laughing]

I’m all for people expressing their opinions on here, and I’m all for people agreeing or disagreeing with those opinions.
 
demographic said:
Aye, just like the decision about not making an 18 volt impact screwdriver.
Oh, hang on a bit... [wink]
That’s a little bit different.

They haven’t made a recip saw, or a cordless router, or a nail gun either. That isn’t the same as them deciding they’re never making them. But by bringing out the sizes of sys3 that they have, they’ve broken the height matching system and can’t fix it simply by bringing out more sizes. A decision has been made that can’t be ‘sorted’, and I think it’s safe to assume they realised those implications when they made that decision.
 
Alex said:
What I'm starting to wonder now is, since it is a 230 volt power source, does it come with the usual protections a standard electrical installation comes? I already read on that site linked above that it has no grounding. I wonder how this thing is going to comply with all the legal obligations for 230 volt power sources.

No grounding means antistatic hose... is no longer antistatic.

DeformedTree said:
Gregor said:
Spandex said:
The main issue for the US will be how long it takes them to make a 110v version
Or they make this a 110-240V, 50-60Hz input device and afterwards drop any and all other 110V stuff, since you now can obtain a working converter (with benefits) for your obsolete kind of mains power (which is, when seen from the perspective of worldwide prevalence these days, irrelevant).

They could just solve all and make them all with a NEMA 14-20 receptacle.  Make it a global choose your own adventure as it does both 110 and 220 (up to 250VAC really).  Folks just use the right adapter for their part of the world. Sell nice green adapters for what ever country/need people want.

Add: Before anyone ask, 50/60Hz is basically a non issue to devices, but if it was, they could just have a 50/60Hz switch on it as that is just part of the controller switching built into it as is.  Similar for the voltage, they all handle ranges,  100-120VAC,  200-250VAC.

14-20R.jpg

Hahahaha, so you want the whole world to adapt a dumbass plug so you can keep your 110V nonsense? Yeah, that definitely is not gonna happen.
 
Alex said:
What I'm starting to wonder now is, since it is a 230 volt power source, does it come with the usual protections a standard electrical installation comes? I already read on that site linked above that it has no grounding. I wonder how this thing is going to comply with all the legal obligations for 230 volt power sources.
The regulations "for 230V" are actually "for 230V GROUNDED" system which has - somewhere - a high potential against the Earth. Once you have the system completely disconnected like here, the "lack of grounding" is a non-issue as the device/tool has no possibility to cause a current of any strength to go through your body to the ground where your body would serve as the conduit. At most you can get a static electricity shock like from any other static electricity source. That is high voltage but low amperage and so harmless.

Ref anti-static hoses and such.
I would guess that in (most) cases the sheer contact area of the whole system will actually make the anti-static hose thing work. But not always. Also, keep in mind that big part of the anti-static thing is the tool itself being form a conductive plastic means it does not generate the charge in the first place. I have a Bosh sander and even connected to AS hose it is a spark generator as the body of the sander is not conductive and my whole body charges from holding the sander ... being discharges to the hose if I touch it actually.

Off topic:
Spandex said:
[laughing]
I’m all for people expressing their opinions on here, and I’m all for people agreeing or disagreeing with those opinions.
Then be so kind and stop talking people down. You are not doing service to the people nor to Festool nor to yourself.

If Festool sales/execs are able to come to terms with their company being built on the whole strange "system" thing or not is to be seen. What I and many other people can do to have that happen is exactly what make you so exasperated - voice our opinions here as well as to the dealers and subsequently vote with our wallets.

I would not expect any sanity to come to Festool before the whole manufacturing shortage is resolved and they have a chance to analyse the market reaction to the SYS3 thing. Mid-2022 would be the earliest appropriate time to give up on them if no remedy comes. Certainly not in 2021 with the whole Covid thing and the transition to SYS3 being still in progress.
 
mino said:
The regulations "for 230V" are actually "for 230V GROUNDED" system which has - somewhere - a high potential against the Earth. Once you have the system completely disconnected like here, the "lack of grounding" is a non-issue as the device/tool has no possibility to cause a current of any strength to go through your body to the ground where your body would serve as the conduit. At most you can get a static electricity shock like from any other static electricity source. That is high voltage but low amperage and so harmless.

Ever put a 9v battery on your tongue?

mino said:
I have a Bosh sander and even connected to AS hose it is a spark generator as the body of the sander is not conductive and my whole body charges from holding the sander ... being discharges to the hose if I touch it actually.

That's one odd sander you have there. I have never had this with any sander. It is always the hose where the anti static builds up.
 
Alex said:
Ever put a 9v battery on your tongue?
Sure, but grounding is there not to make sure you do not touch a live wire. And it does not even protect you if you touch both live wires, one with each hand ... for the breakers you would look like a weak light bulb ... just your heart will not be alight too long ...

The grounding is to prevent a situation where the live wire is at a fixed "hard" potential of 230V against the ground - this connection is at the power plant*), many miles away - and you get in contact with the live wire. Your body then forms a conduit with the ground. Through the ground you are then connected to the other pole of that 230 connection closing the circuit becoming a live conduit for the electricity with bad things ensuing. This "hard potential" is what makes fixed installations dangerous as it is enough to get in contact with  single live wire to close the "circuit".
What the grounding does there, is it prevents an internal tool insulation failure happening silently by tripping the breaker in case live current would get to the tool casing. By having the tool casing independently grounded, the moment such a tool will be connected it will trip a breaker as the grounded casing will "take" any current the damaged wire can provide and route it to the grouding wire.

With a power bank like here, this cannot happen as the other working wire is not in contact with the ground. So if you were to touch a single live-wire, your body would connect the potential of the power source with ground, that side of the output will from then on be "grounded" via you, but no current will flow after the initial static electricity-like discharges which will align the power bank with ground potential.

The risk of you being still electrocuted by touching both live wires at the same time stays - same as with the 9V battery. There is no protection to save you there as human body has too high resistance to trip a breaker by itself. But this is no different from a normal grounded installation - there you are not protected against touching both live wires at the same time either. It is simply not technically possible to distinguish a human from a low power bulb.

That's one odd sander you have there. I have never had this with any sander. It is always the hose where the anti static builds up.
Tell me.
I tested it a lot and the issue is not the hose but the tool itself. If someone is touching the hose while I sand they do not get "charged up" so the hose is really grounded. But the person holding the sander but not grounded else where gets charged up from the tool and every moment touches something grounded - like the hose - gets a discharge right there. Pretty annoying. Will be getting an ETS and leave the Bosch sander for the general use by folks in shop .. so much for saving money on tools ..

*) technically, the transformer, the point is the same

EDIT: legibility
 
Alex said:
mino said:
The regulations "for 230V" are actually "for 230V GROUNDED" system which has - somewhere - a high potential against the Earth. Once you have the system completely disconnected like here, the "lack of grounding" is a non-issue as the device/tool has no possibility to cause a current of any strength to go through your body to the ground where your body would serve as the conduit. At most you can get a static electricity shock like from any other static electricity source. That is high voltage but low amperage and so harmless.

Ever put a 9v battery on your tongue?

Yes all the time. It's the human's build-in 9V-battery charge indicator.

Alex said:
mino said:
I have a Bosh sander and even connected to AS hose it is a spark generator as the body of the sander is not conductive and my whole body charges from holding the sander ... being discharges to the hose if I touch it actually.

That's one odd sander you have there. I have never had this with any sander. It is always the hose where the anti static builds up.

It's probably cheaper to use non-conductive materials.
 
DeformedTree said:
mino said:
It is simply not technically possible to distinguish a human from a low power bulb.

Is this the part were we all have fun with this setup  [big grin]
I see what you did there!

Loved a poster I saw on tube once:

"This machine does not have a brain.
                                        Use yours!"
 
mino said:
Off topic:
Spandex said:
[laughing]
I’m all for people expressing their opinions on here, and I’m all for people agreeing or disagreeing with those opinions.
Then be so kind and stop talking people down. You are not doing service to the people nor to Festool nor to yourself.

If Festool sales/execs are able to come to terms with their company being built on the whole strange "system" thing or not is to be seen. What I and many other people can do to have that happen is exactly what make you so exasperated - voice our opinions here as well as to the dealers and subsequently vote with our wallets.

I would not expect any sanity to come to Festool before the whole manufacturing shortage is resolved and they have a chance to analyse the market reaction to the SYS3 thing. Mid-2022 would be the earliest appropriate time to give up on them if no remedy comes. Certainly not in 2021 with the whole Covid thing and the transition to SYS3 being still in progress.
No idea why you think I’m exasperated, or talking anyone down for that matter. I’m simply voicing my opinion that Festool will have been aware of the implications of their decision, so if anyone is expecting them to suddenly realise what they’ve done and try to ’fix’ it is likely to be waiting a very long time.

If it’s ok for people to complain about sys3, then I think it should probably be ok for people to put forward counter arguments.
 
Spandex said:
No idea why you think I’m exasperated, or talking anyone down for that matter. I’m simply voicing my opinion that Festool will have been aware of the implications of their decision, so if anyone is expecting them to suddenly realise what they’ve done and try to ’fix’ it is likely to be waiting a very long time.

If it’s ok for people to complain about sys3, then I think it should probably be ok for people to put forward counter arguments.
TLDR: I think you underestimate how condescending your comments sounded to some.

--
Knowing you are breaking something and knowing what actual impact it will have on your customers (and your sales) are two very different things. The second case is universally an unknown until it happens and can be observed. *)

Projecting that Festool has a crystal ball to know that impact is just that, a projection. And you implying people raising a concern/complaining are immature/foolish because they dare to challenge the almighty Festool gods is either delusional or, more likely, disillusioned to the max and spreading that disillusionment. Disillusionment is like despair, it loves company.

I work in IT, and if I gave up each time after a colleague, customer or supplier did not "get" what issues I or our team is raising on the first attempt, or even the third attempt, we would never be able to get anywhere on complex projects. It is NORMAL you need to raise and explain a non-intuitive scenario multiple times, sometimes across multiple years until people not familiar with the topic will see it too.

The audience commonly does not have ones 5-steps-ahead vision, and some of the negative impacts first need to be seen to be believed. This is normal. A PITA which comes with the job of doing something new.

What I did not like in your comment presenting as if people who still believe there is a _possibility_ for Festool team to come to their senses were some time of idealistic fools. Some may be, but most do not. I for one know that issue which is not raised and complained DOES NOT EXIST. That is how organizations governance works. Complaints are the direct feedback tool.

Granted, it may not have been the (knowing) intention but you are not first one here to say "dully accept the gods of Festool decision" whenever stupid stuff comes out. IMO people do not do this out of malice but from sheer disillusionment.

In my experience the devil here is that this thinking is self-feeding. The more people give up on common sense, the rarer it is. And the circle continues. This is a fight which is eternal. It will never be won, but it can be lost if we give up. I have seem "broken" teams/business units which succumbed to this and never recovered. They got collectively broken and did not realize it.

Yeah, the parallel about eternal need to fight ignorance is not accidental.

*)
Actually, considering the Covid havoc in the market, I would argue it is extremely hard for Festool to assess this in retrospect from sales data. Too many things changed at the same time.
 
I feel like you’re reading A LOT into my comments. “Idealistic fools”?? [blink]

At the end of the day, Festool have chosen a course of action that cannot be ‘fixed’. Even if they changed back to the old height system, there would be many many thousands of systainer3s out there that won’t fit in with that system, which means the system is permanently broken.

That is my point. It’s not about me thinking Festool are amazing, or that they can’t make mistakes. It’s not even about whether or not THIS is a mistake. They simply can’t fix it now in any remotely sensible way.
 
I believe that adding additional heights to the "new system" would be a fairly straightforward "fix".

There is nothing preventing the Bott guys sticking to their stupid heights while the rest of the world can carry on with sane stuff.

I for one will never get SYS3s unless it will be for a very specific purpose - think SYS POWERSTATION type stuff when I will not consider it a systainer but a tool connectable with one. As they say, vote with your feet.

I do not buy Festool systainers anyway as they scream "valuables inside". So nothing changes for me there. Will keep getting the TANOS ones as I did till now.
Will just remove the systainer value from mu purchase calculations if the tool will not be available without one. Till now saw it as value as the white systainers were quite inconspicuous  so were suitable for non-tool home use.
 
As I start to research SYS-AZ drawers for my storage needs, I can't help but wonder if the 20mm difference in height with the Sys-3 came from the direct-mount slides molded into the cases matching up with the added height required to space out systainers on Sys-AZ drawers?

I mean, given the front handle, the top handle folding forward, and the molded slides, it's obvious that the new cases are heavily rack-oriented, so maybe the change from SYS-AZ to direct-mount would account for that change?

No idea why the SYS-M-112 would be the same height as the TLoc Sys-1 in that case, though.
 
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