New oil burner boiler coming tomorrow.

[Packard]

My 30 year old Burnham oil burner is still working but it is sitting in a puddle of water.  Apparently the cast iron kettle has rusted out.  I’ve been told that it was not repairable. 

My oil delivery company does not have an in-house plumber, but they contract out the service contracts to a local plumbing company.  I’ve been using that company as both my service provider for the oil burner and also my plumber for all things that leak.

They quoted me $12,600.00 to replace the Burnham with another Burnham unit of the identical capacity.

I also got quotes from a plumber that advertises on radio and TV.  They quoted three options, deluxe @ $24,000.00; a less expensive one at $18,000.00, and an economy version at $16,000.00.

I negotiated with my regular plumber to a price of $11,000.00.

The TV plumber came back with $9,800.00, but was going to re-use some of the old components. 

I went with the $11,000.00 deal from my regular plumber.  I’m pretty sure that they will do the job right.  In and out in one day (tomorrow). 

I think the lesson is that there is room to negotiate on oil burner replacement cost. 

I think I will have to stick around the house all day tomorrow.  My cable TV/WiFi died last night at 10:30 p.m.  Now I have to get that taken care of today. 

Ah, the pleasures of home ownership.

 

[cpw]

There is room for negotiation, but I also don't trust someone who drops their price by 40% and would rather go with someone who gives a fair price the first time.

 

[Packard]

That was my exact reaction.  I could not trust them.  They were willing to overcharge by $6,000.00, and finally offered a “fair” price.  But I would always wonder what corners they cut to still retain their accustomed rich profit margin. 

I don’t know how they will carry it into the house.  They told me it weighs 800 pounds.  They can roll it around to the rear entrance.  But they then have to lift it about 30 inches up to the basement floor level.

And I hope they get it done in one day as promised.  I would hate to go a night without heat or hot water.

 

[SoonerFan]

[member=74278]Packard[/member] I think you made the right choice.  Like you and [member=69102]CP[/member]w I would have been very concerned about the other contractor with the massive price drop. 

Hope it’s a one day job for you!  Let us know how it turns out. 

 

[Packard]

[member=74278]Packard[/member] I think you made the right choice.  Like you and [member=69102]CP[/member]w I would have been very concerned about the other contractor with the massive price drop. 

Hope it’s a one day job for you!  Let us know how it turns out.

Like new cars, the new boilers have computer black boxes.  And like cars, they can be a huge headache.

The boiler shut down three times before the mechanic (apparently) solved that problem.  Each time it meant a service call (no cost to me).

Also, there was an assembly-at-the-factory issue that yielded a large puddle of water on the floor.  The plumber had to disassemble part of the boiler to get at the leaking pipe joint.

All the issues appear to be resolved, but for a while I thought I made an $11,000.00 mistake.  The plumber probably thought he made an $11,000.00 mistake too.

Fingers crossed, that the problems are behind me.  It does make really hot water.  No water heater in the house.  The boiler is an on-demand water heater and I have to be careful on the shower settings or I could scald myself.  That’s always been the case, but now it is hotter than ever.

And the house has been warm (a good thing).

 

[Oldwood]

"Like new cars, the new boilers have computer black boxes."

The extra efficiency gained by the new furnaces is not worth the cost or unreliability of them, in my opinion.

My previous home had a furnace with a Honeywell "smart" valve. It would work fine until it got to minus 30 or 40 degrees, then it would not function. The furnace was in the house, so how the outside temperature could affect it was a mystery. I have one brother who at the time was a control tech for Honeywell and another brother who is a gas fitter and customer service rep for the gas company.

We replaced every part on the furnace we thought could be causing the problem, but nothing helped until we replaced the smart valve assembly.

The brother that works for the gas company looks for older furnaces in good condition and buys them for his use and sells them to friends and family. He has seen enough issues with the new high efficiency furnaces to decide he wants something that requires less maintenance.

I like computers, so I am not a technophobe, but sometimes straight mechanical is the way to go.

 

[tjbnwi]

I'd recommend a tempering valve for the system.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=hot+water+tempering+valve&t=osx&ia=web

Tom

 

[Packard]

I'd recommend a tempering valve for the system.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=hot+water+tempering+valve&t=osx&ia=web

Tom

I never heard of that.  I will ask my plumber about it. 

 

[tjbnwi]

I'd recommend a tempering valve for the system.
https://duckduckgo.com/?q=hot+water+tempering+valve&t=osx&ia=web

Tom

I never heard of that.  I will ask my plumber about it. 

Well worth the investment. On new construction they are required in some areas of the US and I believe everywhere in Canada. 

Max temp at the faucets/showers is 120ºF in every area I’ve ever worked in. Normally set them to 115-118.

Tom

Tom

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

I have a dual-loop, on-demand water heater that handles our radiant heat as well as the potable hot water. My memory is that the unit should be factory pre-set to be below 120F. The concern here, as pointed out in a recent post about glass, is that even if the homeowner "knows their home", a guest could be seriously injured (in this case, scalded).

Did your inspector not check the temperatures after installation?

 

[Packard]

I have a dual-loop, on-demand water heater that handles our radiant heat as well as the potable hot water. My memory is that the unit should be factory pre-set to be below 120F. The concern here, as pointed out in a recent post about glass, is that even if the homeowner "knows their home", a guest could be seriously injured (in this case, scalded).

Did your inspector not check the temperatures after installation?

The plumber says it is not adjustable for temperature.  (Or he does not know how to adjust it.). I will check with him again.

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

I have a dual-loop, on-demand water heater that handles our radiant heat as well as the potable hot water. My memory is that the unit should be factory pre-set to be below 120F. The concern here, as pointed out in a recent post about glass, is that even if the homeowner "knows their home", a guest could be seriously injured (in this case, scalded).

Did your inspector not check the temperatures after installation?

The plumber says it is not adjustable for temperature.  (Or he does not know how to adjust it.). I will check with him again.

If the plumber is telling you the unit is not adjustable for temperature, alarm bells should be ringing. Is the unit UL listed? Is the plumber's license up to date? Are they in financial trouble? Why was the work not inspected? Are they in good standing with the local code officials? If the boiler is, in fact, not adjustable for temperature, why would they offer to install it in the first place, knowing it would pose a scalding hazard?

The unit I have was installed by the County for the previous homeowner as part of the County Heating Assistance program. I have to imagine it's the lowest-cost unit available, and I have full control over the radiant heat temperature, as well as the potable water temperature.

If the plumber tells you there's no way to adjust the temperature, I'd check your local code to see if that's something which will come up on a home inspection when you go to sell your home, it'd be a shame to save a nickel now if it's going to cost you a dollar later on if the sale of the house hinges on a janky boiler....

 

[squall_line]

I have a dual-loop, on-demand water heater that handles our radiant heat as well as the potable hot water. My memory is that the unit should be factory pre-set to be below 120F. The concern here, as pointed out in a recent post about glass, is that even if the homeowner "knows their home", a guest could be seriously injured (in this case, scalded).

Did your inspector not check the temperatures after installation?

The plumber says it is not adjustable for temperature.  (Or he does not know how to adjust it.). I will check with him again.

If the plumber is telling you the unit is not adjustable for temperature, alarm bells should be ringing. Is the unit UL listed? Is the plumber's license up to date? Are they in financial trouble? Why was the work not inspected? Are they in good standing with the local code officials? If the boiler is, in fact, not adjustable for temperature, why would they offer to install it in the first place, knowing it would pose a scalding hazard?

The unit I have was installed by the County for the previous homeowner as part of the County Heating Assistance program. I have to imagine it's the lowest-cost unit available, and I have full control over the radiant heat temperature, as well as the potable water temperature.

If the plumber tells you there's no way to adjust the temperature, I'd check your local code to see if that's something which will come up on a home inspection when you go to sell your home, it'd be a shame to save a nickel now if it's going to cost you a dollar later on if the sale of the house hinges on a janky boiler....

From my recollection, this is a boiler used for home heating, with a coil from the cold water supply that runs around the boiler to supply hot water to the house by leeching heat from the boiler.  The hot water in past posts from Packard was not actually plumbed into the boiler.

From a resale standpoint, this is going to have to be re-plumbed to be able to sell this house in the future; I would never buy a house like this as a homeowner, even without young kids.

 

[Packard]

Apparently it is not in violation of code.  When I bought the house I asked about this and was told that it was not unusual for households with 1 or 2 residents as it made enough hot water to supply two showers. 

But for a family of four, it would be inadequate. 

If it does indeed make it difficult to sell the house, the electric company subsidizes the sale and installation of electric hot water heaters.  At various times it is offered at nominal or no fee.  Obviously with the aim of selling more electricity to the home owner.

Even gas or oil hot water heaters are fairly inexpensive the last time I looked (about 25 years ago).

Interestingly, I read a while back that hot water heaters are cost-effective to replace every 5 to 7 years.  Apparently due to the loss of insulation capability over time. 

I just looked that up and the current recommendation is to replace it after 10 years.  With it being cost effective to do so after 6 to 12 years.

I exhibited at the National Hardware Show in Chicago a number of years ago.  The booth next to ours displayed hot water heaters that were vacuum insulated with a jacket made from plastic film and the internal structure made from open cell foam. 

They admitted that the vacuum diminished over time, but the foam continued to provide insulation.  And since the vacuum was effective for about 8 years and you should replace the unit at about that time, it made perfect sense.

What did not make sense was to build a major appliance with the goal of having it last 10 years.

 

[Peter Kelly]

I have a dual-loop, on-demand water heater that handles our radiant heat as well as the potable hot water. My memory is that the unit should be factory pre-set to be below 120F. The concern here, as pointed out in a recent post about glass, is that even if the homeowner "knows their home", a guest could be seriously injured (in this case, scalded).

Did your inspector not check the temperatures after installation?

The plumber says it is not adjustable for temperature.  (Or he does not know how to adjust it.). I will check with him again.

There should be a Honeywell digital oil primary control attached to what I'd assume is either a Beckett or Carlin burner. The temperature control code is "bt". 

 

[Tom the Remodeler]

Snip:

What did not make sense was to build a major appliance with the goal of having it last 10 years.

I suspect this is tied to the relative amount of time homeowners live in a particular home before they "trade-up". Why spend the $$$ on a water heater that will last 100 years when you're planning on "trading-up" in seven years? This mentality is across the board, inclusive of windows, doors, appliances, finishes, paints, siding, etc.... The market was likely telling the appliance industry that it wanted water heaters that would last ~10 years, so the Market responded with gusto and is delivering 10 year appliances....

 

[Packard]

My mentality is that I should buy quality stuff that lasts.  My laundry drier came with my house and I’ve lived here 27 years.  So probably over 30 years of service.

My washing machine quit about 16 ago.  I’ve replaced it twice.  The Bosch lasted 7 years.  The repairman looked it up.  He said that was about average.  My Kenmore is now 9 years old and the electronics are acting goofy—not always—but often enough to warn me it is on its way out.

I’m probably going to live here for another 5 years.  I’m expecting my refrigerator and drier to quit before I go.

 

[Packard]

The oil burner is working fine.  Perhaps too good.

The hot water is probably close to 190 degrees from the tap. 

I was rinsing out a pot with really hot water and the plastic drain pipe simply fell apart at the joints. 

The plumber came and fixed it.  Said that it would not come apart again. 

Was the really hot water the cause of this?  I installed two other sinks myself using chrome plated brass drain pipes.  They never leaked. 

The kitchen sink needed a hook up for the dish washer and was more complicated so I had the plumber take care of it.  He said, “No one is using metal drain pipe anymore.”

Was it the installation, the hot-hot water, or just a problem that plastic pipe has?

 

[woodbutcherbower]

The above is completely unfathomable to us primitive Brits. We have these gadgets called 'thermostats' fitted to our boiler tanks which shut off the heat source when the water reaches a predetermined maximum safe temperature. We like them. They stop our plastic pipes from melting, and they also stop our kids from having to visit the ER skin-graft unit every time they take a shower.

 

[rvieceli]

[member=74278]Packard[/member]

190 degrees at the tap is way too hot. Suggest you ask you plumber about adding a thermostatic mixing valve as your hot water supply for the house comes off the boiler. It will mix in cold water to deliver water to the taps at a preset temp usually between 130 to 140 degrees.

Ron