New Product - Veritas® MFT Clamping Kit

[Brice Burrell]

Loose fit of the dogs won't bother me because I only want the Bessey clamp and MFT/3 mount.  I'm still bummed I have to wait for individual sale of the pieces.  I knew this was going to happen. [mad] 

 

[dicktill]

Brice,

Your wait will be well rewarded: the Bessey clamp and MFT/3 mount are "most excellent"!  [smile]

Regards, Dick

 

[Samo]

So, can anyone comment?  

Sounds like the lock knob is necessary to use with the Bessey clamp posts?  Obviously for safety when using power tools but was hoping for quick tasks, the posts will tilt in the hole and lock in.

Thanks, Sam

 

[bpitch]

It will ruin your MFT bottom, unless you don't care for a grid.

 

[Samo]

It will ruin your MFT bottom, unless you don't care for a grid.

So, it deforms the bottom of the hole?  [blink]

Thanks, Sam

 

[Rob Lee]

(snip)
Measuring them with a Starrett micrometer, I find several thousands of an inch variation, somewhere around 0.771 to 0.775" ~19.58 to 19.70mm (haven't checked the calibration on this mike, so there may be a thou or two of error, but the Delta is definitely there). Still looks to be a very handy and usable kit, but perhaps not as accurate as Qwas dogs for setting up perpendicular?

Hi -

Yes - we designed the dogs for a looser fit than others have...based on feedback we had from several testers, with varing ages of MFT's.

There will always be a degree of variability in hole diameters of the MFT table - yet the placement of holes should be accurate from a CNC router/mill that made them, so the positioning of the hole matrix is the "precision" inherent in the system, and not necessarily the hole diameter.

Dogs will still register on the sides of the holes, no matter what the clearance is.... and precision is preserved. Now - if the user has to modify the hole diameter for dogs that are too snug - then inaccuracy is actually introduced to the table surface... it is difficult for a user to precisely (and concentrically) ream all table holes by the same amount. So - a bit of a double edged sword here - we can make them as snug as we want - but it will not add accuracy...

It has concerned me to read where people have had to modify MFT holes to get accessories to fit - and we sure want to avoid that. We
recognize the utility of the precision matrix afforded by the table surface, and wanted to respect that - which is one reason we have no
"toothed" shaft accessories for the MFT, as we do for regular benches (like the Bessey plates).... we don't want to wear the sides of the holes.

Then too, we we want to ensure forward compatability with other possible Festool items - and did not want to vary siginificantly from what Festool themselves do on similar products.

We're sure willing to listen to other suggestions though.... we certainly have the ability to turn to any given diameter....!

Cheers -

Rob

 

[Corwin]

(snip)
Measuring them with a Starrett micrometer, I find several thousands of an inch variation, somewhere around 0.771 to 0.775" ~19.58 to 19.70mm (haven't checked the calibration on this mike, so there may be a thou or two of error, but the Delta is definitely there). Still looks to be a very handy and usable kit, but perhaps not as accurate as Qwas dogs for setting up perpendicular?

Hi -

Yes - we designed the dogs for a looser fit than others have...based on feedback we had from several testers, with varing ages of MFT's.

There will always be a degree of variability in hole diameters of the MFT table - yet the placement of holes should be accurate from a CNC router/mill that made them, so the positioning of the hole matrix is the "precision" inherent in the system, and not necessarily the hole diameter.

Dogs will still register on the sides of the holes, no matter what the clearance is.... and precision is preserved. Now - if the user has to modify the hole diameter for dogs that are too snug - then inaccuracy is actually introduced to the table surface... it is difficult for a user to precisely (and concentrically) ream all table holes by the same amount. So - a bit of a double edged sword here - we can make them as snug as we want - but it will not add accuracy...

It has concerned me to read where people have had to modify MFT holes to get accessories to fit - and we sure want to avoid that. We
recognize the utility of the precision matrix afforded by the table surface, and wanted to respect that - which is one reason we have no
"toothed" shaft accessories for the MFT, as we do for regular benches (like the Bessey plates).... we don't want to wear the sides of the holes.

Then too, we we want to ensure forward compatability with other possible Festool items - and did not want to vary siginificantly from what Festool themselves do on similar products.

We're sure willing to listen to other suggestions though.... we certainly have the ability to turn to any given diameter....!

Cheers -

Rob

The position of the holes alone will not guarantee success here -- the diameters are also important.  If the dogs vary and the holes vary, your accuracy is lost.  At a minimum the dogs need to be more accurate than what has been experienced in the quoted post.

 

[dicktill]

Corwin / Rob / et. al.

I'll calibrate my micrometer later, and remeasure everything. I beleive that the variation on the dogs was only in the order of 1 to 2 thou. The Bessey clamp posts were the ones on the high end.

Regards, Dick

 

[dicktill]

OK, here are my results after checking the mike with a 0.7500" Jo-Block (it's within a ten-thousandth) and using the ratchet/fine thimble (gives more consistency) which I didn't use previously:

Note: ignore my earlier 0.771-0.775"; I "misspoke" by .005" DUH; I don't know how to add.  [tongue] The real range is 0.7750" to 0.77801" (I think).

Disclaimer: measuring things isn't my "long suit", so take everything with a grain of salt.

Four small dogs:  0.7760"  0.7761"  0.7765"  0.7765"  (range of 0.0005")

Four large dogs:  0.7750"  0.7753"  0.7757"  0.7776"  (range of 0.0026")

Four plane stop dogs:  0.7765"  0.7766"  0.7768"  0.7780"  (range of 0.0035")

Two Bessey clamp mounts:  0.7796"  0.7801"  (range of 0.0006")

Regards, Dick

 

[jimbo51]

The Bessey clamp will lock down without a bottom clamp. It does tilt in the hole as the front edge of the bottom of the clamp visibly lifts off the surface. As the post is shorter than the thickness of the table, it will dig into the side of the hole near the bottom and could eventually cause a problem if the clamp was used in the same hole and the same orientation repeatedly.

 

[jimbo51]

I just did some experimenting with my new Veitas MFT clamping system dogs and Qwas dogs. The Qwas dog is a tighter fit in the holes on my MFT3. When fully inserted there is no noticeable movement when pushed side to side. The Veritas MFT dog has some slight movement.  On an old 1080 table the Qwas dog had a tiny bit of wiggle.

Below are some comparisons I made to the numbers provided by dicktill. I used a Starret dial caliper with 0.001 dial. However I could see smaller a difference on the diaI. I did not have a control block handy so I measured the blade of a Bridge City Tool square with a nominal width of 0.75 in. I measured about 0.751 so I do not think I am too far off. I made several measurements and recorded the smallest number I could reliably achieve (sort of a mean number).

Dicktill’s numbers are listed first, then mine below with approximate range.
Four small dogs:  0.7760"  0.7761"  0.7765"  0.7765"  (range of 0.0005")
0.776-0.777  about 0.001 range

Four large dogs:  0.7750"  0.7753"  0.7757"  0.7776"  (range of 0.0026")
>0.775-0.776 less than 0.001 range

Four plane stop dogs:  0.7765"  0.7766"  0.7768"  0.7780"  (range of 0.0035")
0.777-0.779 less than 0.002 range (math on range above looks incorrect)

Qwas dogs  3 of 4 were 0.782 and one was about 0.0005 smaller by estimate

I then checked how much difference there was between the two types of dogs when setting up an angle on the MFT3. I put a Qwas dog in each corner of the MFT3 and placed a long Woodpecker scale against the two dogs. I pulled the dog up slightly so that I was registering against the shaft of the dog since the heads of the two types of dog are a different diameter. I then drew a short line with a 0.5 mm mechanical pencil along the scale at one end. I replaced each dog with the Veritas MFT dogs and repeated the process. I could see that the edge of the scale was not exactly on top of the previous line. When I drew the second line however, then was no gap between the lines. I think this means that the distance between the two lines was not more than 0.5 mm thick. When I repeated the exercise using the two Veritas dogs with 0.001 difference in shaft diameter, I could not see any difference in the pencil lines. The distance between the dogs corner to corner was about 1.09 m.

Thus the difference in the diameter of the shafts of the two types of dog results in a measured difference of not more than 0.5 mm in 1090 mm. My table is a few years old and has seen only moderate use.  For tables that have had extensive use with lots of steel clamps knocking around in the holes, I wonder if all the holes would have tolerances much better than this.

I am not sure what the practical relevance of these measurements is. As Rob Lee noted, he was aiming for precision (reapeatability) rather than an arbitrary accuracy. Since the head diameters of the two types of dog are not the same, you would not use them together for alignment anyway. Thus far, I have always relied on marks on the wood measured from the edge of the wood to align my guide rails. I cannot think of a situation where having the dogs sitting a couple of thousandths of an inch differently in the table top would matter. It would seem to matter only if you were referencing from both sides of the table where having the dog shift side to side about 0.001 would alter your cut line. While I am all for precision, I do not see how this kind of difference would be important in pieces the size you would be cutting on an MFT3.

 

[Samo]

The Bessey clamp will lock down without a bottom clamp. It does tilt in the hole as the front edge of the bottom of the clamp visibly lifts off the surface. As the post is shorter than the thickness of the table, it will dig into the side of the hole near the bottom and could eventually cause a problem if the clamp was used in the same hole and the same orientation repeatedly.

Jimbo,

Thanks very much for this!  I guess with the Besseys capable of over 700 lbs. of clamping pressure, this should be a warning  especially if you ever wanted to flip your top.  [eek]

 

[Brice Burrell]

The Bessey clamp will lock down without a bottom clamp. It does tilt in the hole as the front edge of the bottom of the clamp visibly lifts off the surface. As the post is shorter than the thickness of the table, it will dig into the side of the hole near the bottom and could eventually cause a problem if the clamp was used in the same hole and the same orientation repeatedly.

Jimbo,

Thanks very much for this!  I guess with the Besseys capable of over 700 lbs. of clamping pressure, this should be a warning  especially if you ever wanted to flip your top.   [eek]

Thanks for the info Jimbo.  I think I might drill a couple extra holes specifically for the Bessey clamps.  I know that won't always work but it will cut down on the wear and tear on the regular grid holes. 

 

[Oldwood]

I think the issue of dog size is a very difficult one. I have a CNC router & make my own tables out of various sheet stock. ( MDF, PLY,Melamine, etc.) My Quas rail  dogs are .780 and the normal dogs are .784. The standard dogs are too tight in some materials and good in others all drilled with the same bit. When you are dealing with wood .003 is a tough tolerance to keep as the wood will shrink & swell with relative humidity. I think if you want to make a product that fits in all or even almost all the dog holes you are going to need to stay on the lower side of the size scale.

I think Rob's point that if your table holes are accurate even if the dogs have some clearance when they are pushed to the back side you will get proper indexing is valid.

FWIW

Gerry     

 

[Kevin D.]

THIS THREAD HAS BEEN RENAMED AND MERGED WITH ANOTHER THREAD AT MY REQUEST.  THANKS PETER!  [smile]

 

[ridgenj]

I received my package within 3 days.
Excellent service from Lee Valley.
Cheers
Luis

 

[Elill]

Hmm....dilemma. I am building a bench at the moment, do I do 20mm or 3/4" holes?

I am guessing 20mm for two reasons:
- I have systaineritis and that Veritas one is awesome
- I can see there being more third parties making 20mm gear for the MFT?

 

[Kevin D.]

Hmm....dilemma. I am building a bench at the moment, do I do 20mm or 3/4" holes?

I am guessing 20mm for two reasons:
- I have systaineritis and that Veritas one is awesome
- I can see there being more third parties making 20mm gear for the MFT?

Think QWAS Dogs.  I am!  While the insertable stops in the LV kit are nice, I watched some videos on the QWAS dogs on a vendors website (Ultimate Tools - Dan Clermont) and have finally started to realized how precise they work and how much more efficient they can make things happen.  I think, although I'm not certain (someone step in and confirm this please) that the Qwas Dogs are only suited for 20mm holes????

 

[fletchtool]

(snip)
Measuring them with a Starrett micrometer, I find several thousands of an inch variation, somewhere around 0.771 to 0.775" ~19.58 to 19.70mm (haven't checked the calibration on this mike, so there may be a thou or two of error, but the Delta is definitely there). Still looks to be a very handy and usable kit, but perhaps not as accurate as Qwas dogs for setting up perpendicular?

Hi -

Yes - we designed the dogs for a looser fit than others have...based on feedback we had from several testers, with varing ages of MFT's.

There will always be a degree of variability in hole diameters of the MFT table - yet the placement of holes should be accurate from a CNC router/mill that made them, so the positioning of the hole matrix is the "precision" inherent in the system, and not necessarily the hole diameter.

Dogs will still register on the sides of the holes, no matter what the clearance is.... and precision is preserved. Now - if the user has to modify the hole diameter for dogs that are too snug - then inaccuracy is actually introduced to the table surface... it is difficult for a user to precisely (and concentrically) ream all table holes by the same amount. So - a bit of a double edged sword here - we can make them as snug as we want - but it will not add accuracy...

It has concerned me to read where people have had to modify MFT holes to get accessories to fit - and we sure want to avoid that. We
recognize the utility of the precision matrix afforded by the table surface, and wanted to respect that - which is one reason we have no
"toothed" shaft accessories for the MFT, as we do for regular benches (like the Bessey plates).... we don't want to wear the sides of the holes.

Then too, we we want to ensure forward compatability with other possible Festool items - and did not want to vary siginificantly from what Festool themselves do on similar products.

We're sure willing to listen to other suggestions though.... we certainly have the ability to turn to any given diameter....!

Cheers -

Rob

Hi Rob Lee. I am looking for clarification of what you mean in your last statement "We're sure willing to listen to other suggestions though.... we certainly have the ability to turn to any given diameter....!". It sounds to me as though if you receive enough feedback about the fit of the dogs, you would make them to the same tolerance as the Qwas dogs. If so , how much feedback do you need to have? I for one was surprised at the loose fit (-.2mm) when I got my MFT Clamping set two days ago. I like the precision of the Qwas dogs in my MFT, so count me in as a preference for making the dogs in the Veritas Clamping set the same tight fit as the Qwas dogs.

Fletchtool
000378971

PS if I had been one of your testers, I would have voted designing for a tight fit for the MFT/3

 

[NuggyBuggy]

Think QWAS Dogs.  I am!  While the insertable stops in the LV kit are nice, I watched some videos on the QWAS dogs on a vendors website (Ultimate Tools - Dan Clermont) and have finally started to realized how precise they work and how much more efficient they can make things happen.  I think, although I'm not certain (someone step in and confirm this please) that the Qwas Dogs are only suited for 20mm holes????

Kevin - for me, anyways, and I have told Steve this - his dogs and the copies completely change the way I work with the MFT.  It's way nicer than using the rail mounted on that hinge thingy - mine has not been used since I got my first set of dogs - and, probably, more accurate.  Since I almost only cut 45s and 90s, I haven't used any of the accessories in the full MFT kit in forever - way too much hassle.

I will say I am a little surprised the Veritas kit didn't include some version of rail dogs.  The t-bolt on the dogs for the Veritas planing stops do not fit t-track, which is a shame - I'd rather have dogs that can mount t-track over dogs that can only mount the planing stops any day.  The Qwas dogs are a pleasure to use with t-track, which opens up a whole world of possibilities.

I don't think they'd be very useful in anything other than a 20mm hole - 3/4" would be too small for the dogs.