New Product - Veritas® MFT Clamping Kit

[skids]

(snip)
Measuring them with a Starrett micrometer, I find several thousands of an inch variation, somewhere around 0.771 to 0.775" ~19.58 to 19.70mm (haven't checked the calibration on this mike, so there may be a thou or two of error, but the Delta is definitely there). Still looks to be a very handy and usable kit, but perhaps not as accurate as Qwas dogs for setting up perpendicular?

Hi -

Yes - we designed the dogs for a looser fit than others have...based on feedback we had from several testers, with varing ages of MFT's.

There will always be a degree of variability in hole diameters of the MFT table - yet the placement of holes should be accurate from a CNC router/mill that made them, so the positioning of the hole matrix is the "precision" inherent in the system, and not necessarily the hole diameter.

Dogs will still register on the sides of the holes, no matter what the clearance is.... and precision is preserved. Now - if the user has to modify the hole diameter for dogs that are too snug - then inaccuracy is actually introduced to the table surface... it is difficult for a user to precisely (and concentrically) ream all table holes by the same amount. So - a bit of a double edged sword here - we can make them as snug as we want - but it will not add accuracy...

It has concerned me to read where people have had to modify MFT holes to get accessories to fit - and we sure want to avoid that. We
recognize the utility of the precision matrix afforded by the table surface, and wanted to respect that - which is one reason we have no
"toothed" shaft accessories for the MFT, as we do for regular benches (like the Bessey plates).... we don't want to wear the sides of the holes.

Then too, we we want to ensure forward compatability with other possible Festool items - and did not want to vary siginificantly from what Festool themselves do on similar products.

We're sure willing to listen to other suggestions though.... we certainly have the ability to turn to any given diameter....!

Cheers -

Rob

Hi Rob Lee. I am looking for clarification of what you mean in your last statement "We're sure willing to listen to other suggestions though.... we certainly have the ability to turn to any given diameter....!". It sounds to me as though if you receive enough feedback about the fit of the dogs, you would make them to the same tolerance as the Qwas dogs. If so , how much feedback do you need to have? I for one was surprised at the loose fit (-.2mm) when I got my MFT Clamping set two days ago. I like the precision of the Qwas dogs in my MFT, so count me in as a preference for making the dogs in the Veritas Clamping set the same tight fit as the Qwas dogs.

Fletchtool
000378971

PS if I had been one of your testers, I would have voted designing for a tight fit for the MFT/3

I second this.

 

[sgryd]

I was on the fence to order this. But I'd likely be disappointed by the fit since I'm used to the perfect-fit Qwas dogs. Thank you for the information.
* Here is my vote as well for a tighter fit.

 

[rrmccabe]

* Here is my vote as well for a tighter fit.

Yea me too.  I am ready to order but used to using tool improvments dogs and rely on the the perfect fit.

If this changes I will order a kit.

 

[NuggyBuggy]

Rob - if we want dogs with the closer fit, should we return the kits we have now ?

 

[johninthecamper]

that's what l.v. just told me,including something about rob said blah blah.I would rather just return the loose fitting pieces,they said send it all back

 

[builderbob]

that's what l.v. just told me,including something about rob said blah blah.I would rather just return the loose fitting pieces,they said send it all back

I will keep my set as I've already grown to love and use it. I do hope for tighter fitting dogs and of/when they come perhaps they'll honor an exchange for the early adopters. If not, I'll have to either use the Qwas dogs or continue using these!

Bob

 

[Alan m]

its a shame that more fog discusion wasnt done before these kits were finalised.
im sure there would be some great ideas on what should be put in adn what should be tweeked.
maybe this was done privetly im not sure.
i would like the normal type bench clamp to work in a way that wouldnt damage the top (i dont know but im guessing that it would) some kind of rubber sleave would help

i also dont see why there are 8 dogs.
i very raraly use all my qwas dogs. usually is 3 or 4

 

[rrmccabe]

I know that this can be a pain because of the hole size variations. I found this out when I bought my dogs from Tool Improvements.

We passed emails back and forth several times and I can tell you the difference between too tight, too loose and just right is very small and going to be hard for the average guy to measure.  Its even hard to measure the hole with a caliper to figure this out.  I went though my sockets and found a socket that would slip in "just right" and then measured that with a caliper.

When I got them they were good but not as tight as I would have liked.  For some reason I decided to replace my top right after that and when the the new table came the dogs were PERFECT.

That said I am sure Veritas is trying to avoid this.

There are probably 3 to 4 sizes of 20mm dogs to be "just right" in every table.

 

[Kevin D.]

Think QWAS Dogs.  I am!  While the insertable stops in the LV kit are nice, I watched some videos on the QWAS dogs on a vendors website (Ultimate Tools - Dan Clermont) and have finally started to realized how precise they work and how much more efficient they can make things happen.  I think, although I'm not certain (someone step in and confirm this please) that the Qwas Dogs are only suited for 20mm holes????

Kevin - for me, anyways, and I have told Steve this - his dogs and the copies completely change the way I work with the MFT.  It's way nicer than using the rail mounted on that hinge thingy - mine has not been used since I got my first set of dogs - and, probably, more accurate.  Since I almost only cut 45s and 90s, I haven't used any of the accessories in the full MFT kit in forever - way too much hassle.

I will say I am a little surprised the Veritas kit didn't include some version of rail dogs.  The t-bolt on the dogs for the Veritas planing stops do not fit t-track, which is a shame - I'd rather have dogs that can mount t-track over dogs that can only mount the planing stops any day.  The Qwas dogs are a pleasure to use with t-track, which opens up a whole world of possibilities.

I don't think they'd be very useful in anything other than a 20mm hole - 3/4" would be too small for the dogs. 

I was speaking to Frank Pellow earlier, and he just got the MFT kit, and I asked him how the fit was.  He said himself he prefers it a little sloppy.  I also asked him about the QWAS Dogs and whether he owned them.  He said he does, and finds the tolerances fine, but he also pointed that using the old Black & Decked square inserts were pretty well just as good as the QWAS Dogs.  I never really tried the B&D for that purpose of squaring precisely but now I think I'll investigate that further as an option as I have a bunch of the B&D inserts myself.

Frank had called me because he went to LV this morning and had ordered an MFT kit online as well before me, but had not received his confirmation email that it was available for pick up since he placed the order earlier last week hours before I had ordered mine.  But he saw from the counter that the only one they had at the express pick-up was the one with my name on it.  He is so well known there that he got them to give him mine.  Which was fine by me, and I'll wait til they have more in stock.  He technically should have been ahead of me anyways, so him snagging mine actually corrected what was really an incorrect prioritization that the store had mucked up on in the first place.  Funny how things work out sometimes.

 

[skids]

OK let me make sure I am getting this straight in my head..If you are using the dogs for squaring then you wouldn't want slop correct? I really want the flexibility to use them as a fence essentially at times. I suppose mainly they would also just be used as stops. But if you are using dogs as a fence and say one on one end has play and the one on the other doesn't wouldn't the fit be a critical factor?

I suppose it's not a huge deal for a fella like me, but I do like the idea of having the precision as an option, therefore wouldn't want play. All the Qwas dogs I have seem to fit very well, with literally no play.

 

[CarolinaNomad]

I have both Qwas dogs and the new Veritas dogs.  I too was a little disappointed in the Veritas being a little loose.  But they can be used as registration if you square them with the MFT prior to locking/clamping them down.  I'm not sure how practical this is for everyday use, but is an option if a dog becomes a permanent fixture, ie dogs along the top row of holes.

 

[Rob Lee]

Hi -

Have been actively following this thread today, and have had multiple discussions with our engineers/designers here. We are compiling some data on the MFT surfaces right now, and will be able to post a more complete set of responses and observations here tomorrow.

Basically - we are characterising an MFT surface using a CMM, and explicitly measuring positional accuracy with dogs as produced now, as well as with dogs milled to 19.90mm . We will also be tabulating angular accuracy of dog pairs used within the matrix...

Will take a bit of time, as there are likely thousands of discrete measurments to take....

Cheers -

Rob

 

[Rocky]

Has anyone tried the bit in the kit to drill some test hole to see if the fit is still loose?

 

[fletchtool]

Hi -

Have been actively following this thread today, and have had multiple discussions with our engineers/designers here. We are compiling some data on the MFT surfaces right now, and will be able to post a more complete set of responses and observations here tomorrow.

Basically - we are characterising an MFT surface using a CMM, and explicitly measuring positional accuracy with dogs as produced now, as well as with dogs milled to 19.90mm . We will also be tabulating angular accuracy of dog pairs used within the matrix...

Will take a bit of time, as there are likely thousands of discrete measurments to take....

Cheers -

Rob

Hi Rob,
Just an additional comment regarding your review and data calculation. When I use my Qwas dogs I am fully confident that I have a 90 or 45 degree set up and my cuts will be perfect (except for when I do something stupid).  I only need to ensure that my stock and/or guide are touching the dogs. My concern with the loose fitting dogs is I have to be sure that I am exerting enough pressure on the stock/guides to keep the Veritas dogs registered to the sides of the holes to maintain the integrity of the angle. This just adds in another variable that I must account for (or another opportunity for error).  I originally acquired the Qwas dogs because of the simple genius and ease of function. The opinion I am expressing may not be borne out by your data collection, but for me, I want the tight fit and hope that you will make the dogs that way. Maybe you should consider making a few different diameter dogs that will be a tight fit for the varying aged MFT’s instead of dogs that sort of fit all MFT’s. I suspect (I don’t really know but the FOG is growing) there are more and more new MFT/3’s being sold than there are old MFT’s out there, so make the dogs fit the MFT/3’s.  For the record, I am proud to be the owner of many Veritas tools and have been a very happy and loyal LV customer for over 26 years.
Fletchtool 

 

[Frank Pellow]

Has anyone tried the bit in the kit to drill some test hole to see if the fit is still loose?

I have tried that and the fit is slightly loose.  By the way, my Festool clamping elements (488 030) are similarly a little bit loose.  

Unlike some others, I don't mind the fit being slightly (with emphasis on slightly) loose.

 

[promark747]

Got my set last night and I must concur that it is very nicely done.  Question for the group: would a washer underneath (between the knob and the bottom of the MFT) help prevent the bottom of the hole from being damaged when using the clamps?

 

[Alan m]

Got my set last night and I must concur that it is very nicely done.  Question for the group: would a washer underneath (between the knob and the bottom of the MFT) help prevent the bottom of the hole from being damaged when using the clamps?

it would help , but im not sure how long would it be before there was damage.
i think you would have to be moving the knobs around  an awfull lot each day to  damage them but given time im sure it would all add up

 

[B_Swanson]

Can someone elaborate on how using the Bessey clamps with the locking knob on the bottom is going to damage the bottom side of the MFT surface?  Thanks.

Brad

 

[rrmccabe]

I cant speak for the Bessey but some of my knobs are small enough it tries to countersink into the hole. Adding a flat washer on the bottom keeps the force on the bottom flatly and doesn't do damage.

 

[Rocky]

Even with the Festool knobs?