New Product - Veritas® MFT Clamping Kit

I read the text of the report (I will save the data and graphs for later). Now I am saved the moral crisis of possibly wanting tighter dogs after saying it probably did not matter. All of the dogs can be made tighter with the use of a bit of tape if a firmer fit is desired.

In response to the concern raised by Fletchtool about loose dogs needing extra care for alignment, I think that the pressure needed to insure you are tight to any dog will be more than enough to push a slightly loose dog against the side of the hole. This report seems to bear that out if I read it correctly.

I join the others in thanking Rob Lee for the effort to answer these issues.
 
Rob,
Thanks for the insanely detailed report -- but given the quality of Veritas products, I probably should have expected this attention to detail! 

You cleared up my issue with the Bessey clamps, and it makes sense to always use the knobs to keep everything from shifting around.  I tried it with the knob and no issues.

Thanks again, and I'm keeping my set! 
Andy
 
Very nice.

I have been using cheap plastic dogs from a Workmate to register my fence and rail for several years now and they have worked great.  While I think the conclusion is plausible and have no reason to debate it,  I also think the tolerances we're talking about here are well beyond what is necessary.  I have to believe that your/Parf/Qwas precision machined dogs will all give better results than molded plastic.  Given that my MFT top is also made using the original as a template with a pattern router bit, the tolerances for me and my plastic dogs are probably a decimal place off of what you were probably dealing with.
 
Rob.    I to want to thank you for your detailed report on the issue. I have used your set since I got it and I am quite happy with what I have here.
The set to me is really impressive in design and.for me functionality

Thank You and expect more purchases in the future from me, I am impressed by you attention to detail and the products you sell.

Sal
 
Thanks for the report Rob.

It's good to know that there is actually some real evidence to support my preference for a slightly loose fit.  I was just going on gut feel and what appears to work for me.

I will certainly not be asking for any replacements for parts of my kit.
 
Hi Rob,  Excellent response – done the Lee Valley way – incredibly comprehensive.

It is understandable trying to get a great product like this out quickly, especially when you have as enthusiastic an audience as the FOG. Two of your comments regarding communication resonate with me; “Our model has always been to set an expectation, and exceed it”; and “Your expectation of what a “dog” is in the Festool-MFT context is completely different from the “dogs” in the hand wood working world”.  I know my concerns regarding the fit of the dogs has been based on my experience with Qwas and the YouTube videos extolling the virtues of their precision. Thus my expectation of this kit (dogs) was they would fit just like the Qwas but with Veritas improvements. I equated the tight fit of the Qwas with precision and accuracy and was therefore disappointed with the Veritas dogs.

Having read everything that you have produced today, I will step back and reconsider my thoughts on the fit of the Veritas dogs. Also, with your response, I now feel free to use and enjoy all the other components of this great kit as I know, no matter what, I will not be returning it.  As well, I found the explanations of the other components in the kit and how you see them working on the MFT very helpful. 

This is an outstanding example of a company that truly values customer satisfaction.

Fletchtool
 
I bought the kit and am quite impressed, but so far I have spent more time reading the posts and then the report Rob posted than actually using it.

Regardless of preference for loose or tight fit I believe Lee Valley's response to this should be a case study / template for manufacturers of high-end products.  I can think of several companies who have not done nearly as well in responding to product issues raised on the internet, they should be studying this closely.

There is a growing field of consultants who advise companies on using "social media" and other modern methods of communicating with customers, but in my view many of them emphasize form over substance. 

This is the way to support your products and customers, particularly in a technical field.

Jeff
 
Jeff Zanin said:
I bought the kit and am quite impressed, but so far I have spent more time reading the posts and then the report Rob posted than actually using it.

Regardless of preference for loose or tight fit I believe Lee Valley's response to this should be a case study / template for manufacturers of high-end products.  I can think of several companies who have not done nearly as well in responding to product issues raised on the internet, they should be studying this closely.

There is a growing field of consultants who advise companies on using "social media" and other modern methods of communicating with customers, but in my view many of them emphasize form over substance. 

This is the way to support your products and customers, particularly in a technical field.

Jeff

Great post Jeff and well done Rob and the rest of the Lee Valley crew. [thumbs up]
 
Why I choose to do business with LV........Customer Service is simply outstanding!!!
Thanks Rob and LV staff  [thanks]

I just ordered mine  [cool]

JT
 
i got my set about a week ago but only had a chance to check it out today,i am very disappointed with the dogs,they are a really sloppy fit,i think fletchtool's remarks are still valid despite the report by rob lee,the dogs are so loose that sidewards pressure makes them tilt up out of the hole,this is not what i expected when i first read the phrase "precision dogs",i would return the whole set but have already paid a lot for shipping and import fees to the U.K.,i have requested a set of the 19.90mm dogs as per the offer in the report.

EDIT> Quote box fixing
 
I will note that the Veritas dogs have a threaded hole in the bottom. When they are fastened down with the threaded knob from underneath, they do not move at all.
 
skinee said:
i got my set about a week ago but only had a chance to check it out today,i am very disappointed with the dogs,they are a really sloppy fit,i think fletchtool's remarks are still valid despite the report by rob lee,the dogs are so loose that sidewards pressure makes them tilt up out of the hole,this is not what i expected when i first read the phrase "precision dogs",i would return the whole set but have already paid a lot for shipping and import fees to the U.K.,i have requested a set of the 19.90mm dogs as per the offer in the report.

skinee
Sorry to hear of your problems, did you measure the diameter,is your table a 1080 or MFT 3 ? Expensive set I'm sure, out of interest what was the breakdown with shipping,customs etc landed on this side ?
I am sure this problem can be solved and look forward to reading more on this

EDIT> Quote box fixing
 
Festool Fishy said:
skinee said:
i got my set about a week ago but only had a chance to check it out today,i am very disappointed with the dogs,they are a really sloppy fit,i think fletchtool's remarks are still valid despite the report by rob lee,the dogs are so loose that sidewards pressure makes them tilt up out of the hole,this is not what i expected when i first read the phrase "precision dogs",i would return the whole set but have already paid a lot for shipping and import fees to the U.K.,i have requested a set of the 19.90mm dogs as per the offer in the report.

skinee
Sorry to hear of your problems, did you measure the diameter,is your table a 1080 or MFT 3 ? Expensive set I'm sure, out of interest what was the breakdown with shipping,customs etc landed on this side ?
I am sure this problem can be solved and look forward to reading more on this

EDIT> Quote box fixing

my table is a mft3,costs to the U.K. roughly £330 and what a waste of cash,dogs are rubbish,bessey clamp setup easily replicated(i think eric has posted something similar),"work holding plates" ,again sloppy fit and easily replicated,the only good thing in the set is the hold down which is very good,my advice buy the hold downs separately and forget the rest!

as for the suggestion of bolting the dogs down to avoid movement  ???,who would want to go through that nonsense every time, when a snug fitting dog  would eliminate movement
 
I have followed this thread wondering how it might play out. Just for reference, I live in a world of hole location, also referred to as true position, and the relative fit of components, sometimes referred to as class of fit. My experience is with what most of you would think of as gearboxes, differential carrier mountings to be exact. Think of the data Rob presented but in a three dimensional cube as opposed to a flat, two dimensional MFT plate.

A quick look through the dimensional layout of the tops indicated a worst case true position of about .0075". True position is double the actual distance a hole deviates from perfection. It is not uncommon for the spacing of bearing bores for gears to be toleranced at .002 (fairly tight) to .005 (pretty open in general, but depending on the application can be more difficult to accomplish than .002 in a different place). For an MDF top to be bored at the accuracy documented is pretty impressive, and most of the hole were on the order of .004 or less. In addition, hole size over the three tops varied by only .003 which would add another .003 to true position variability, but only when using the smallest hole along with the largest hole. When looking at any individual top the hole sizes were closer than .003 within each given plate, meaning the variability would be even less. BTW, .003 hole size variability over the time span represented in the samples is not too shabby either. I am estimating, off the cuff, that Festool is using about 50 percent of the tolerance they have allotted themselves. We are getting a very good platform on which to do our work.

That said, I agree wholeheartedly with Rob's assertion that more variability in position for squareness or 45 degree cutting will come from the hole positions than from the size of the dogs. IIRC, Rob said they are using a tolerance of .002 for size which would only account for .002 position variability (when loaded against the side of a hole), much less than described above. In addition, I am betting LV is holding better than .002 especially within the dogs that wind up in the same kit. It is probably more like .0005 but Rob is not going to make this claim on the off chance it doesn't happen.

Final observation: we use 20mm bolts by the hundreds of thousands. I have a handful that I use for dogs. They are a perfect fit in my MFT/3 but will not go into my older MFT 1080 unless I tap  them in with a mallet, nor will they go into a Walko without the mallet. If I were to dust the diameters for the smaller holes they would 'seem' too loose in the larger MFT/3 holes but it would only be .003 to get there. Three thousands seems really sloppy until you work thru the numbers. Rob did it for us.

The takeaway for me is that we have 'assumed' perfection in the top, and that all our 'problems' will be from loose fitting dogs. Quite the contrary. The fit of the dogs will contribute less to accuracy loss than any other factor if you load the force against the wall of the hole, which should be a default technique if you want to be assured your stock, or fence, is also tight to the reference surfaces.
 
It is awesome to get free professional position & fit engineering analysis on a woodworking forum.

Thanks to Greg for an excellent explanation of the considerations regarding MFT holes and dogs.

To me this reinforces the analysis that Rob posted and supports the reasoning LV used in sizing the Veritas dogs.

No doubt there are other equally valid viewpoints, and we are fortunate to be able to choose products that provide a different fit when this is needed.

Jeff
 
greg mann said:
I have followed this thread wondering how it might play out. Just for reference, I live in a world of hole location, also referred to as true position, and the relative fit of components, sometimes referred to as class of fit. My experience is with what most of you would think of as gearboxes, differential carrier mountings to be exact. Think of the data Rob presented but in a three dimensional cube as opposed to a flat, two dimensional MFT plate.

A quick look through the dimensional layout of the tops indicated a worst case true position of about .0075". True position is double the actual distance a hole deviates from perfection. It is not uncommon for the spacing of bearing bores for gears to be toleranced at .002 (fairly tight) to .005 (pretty open in general, but depending on the application can be more difficult to accomplish than .002 in a different place). For an MDF top to be bored at the accuracy documented is pretty impressive, and most of the hole were on the order of .004 or less. In addition, hole size over the three tops varied by only .003 which would add another .003 to true position variability, but only when using the smallest hole along with the largest hole. When looking at any individual top the hole sizes were closer than .003 within each given plate, meaning the variability would be even less. BTW, .003 hole size variability over the time span represented in the samples is not too shabby either. I am estimating, off the cuff, that Festool is using about 50 percent of the tolerance they have allotted themselves. We are getting a very good platform on which to do our work.

That said, I agree wholeheartedly with Rob's assertion that more variability in position for squareness or 45 degree cutting will come from the hole positions than from the size of the dogs. IIRC, Rob said they are using a tolerance of .002 for size which would only account for .002 position variability (when loaded against the side of a hole), much less than described above. In addition, I am betting LV is holding better than .002 especially within the dogs that wind up in the same kit. It is probably more like .0005 but Rob is not going to make this claim on the off chance it doesn't happen.

Final observation: we use 20mm bolts by the hundreds of thousands. I have a handful that I use for dogs. They are a perfect fit in my MFT/3 but will not go into my older MFT 1080 unless I tap  them in with a mallet, nor will they go into a Walko without the mallet. If I were to dust the diameters for the smaller holes they would 'seem' too loose in the larger MFT/3 holes but it would only be .003 to get there. Three thousands seems really sloppy until you work thru the numbers. Rob did it for us.

The takeaway for me is that we have 'assumed' perfection in the top, and that all our 'problems' will be from loose fitting dogs. Quite the contrary. The fit of the dogs will contribute less to accuracy loss than any other factor if you load the force against the wall of the hole, which should be a default technique if you want to be assured your stock, or fence, is also tight to the reference surfaces.

that we rely on the cnc'd accuracy of the mft top is not in dispute,it is however old news,qwas recognised and acted upon this discovery many moons ago when he brought out his precision dogs,the only thing new in the equation is the use of undersized 'slop dogs',common sense would also dictate that it is vital to ensure that undersized dogs are pressed tightly against the sides of the hole to make use of the cnc'd accuracy,the question surely is, wether or not it is useful or desireable to use undersized dogs or would snug fitting dogs make life a little easier,i dont think qwas or other precision dog makers will be rushing out a set of undersized dogs anytime soon,there is also the argument that undersized dogs will fit in more mft's, even older ones,while this is undeniable i believe a snug fitting dog could be made to fit 95% of mft's,the reason being that  a Friend made me eight dogs on a cnc lathe,they fit perfectly in my mft3, i sent  four of these dogs to a friend (and prominent member of this forum) is the US and they fitted perfectly on his table also,and his table is a 1080.Greg you have said that you use 20mm bolts as dogs,now surely 3/4" bolts are much more common and readily available in the US,why not use these?surely its because they would rattle around a little just like the slop dogs but you use  the 20mm bolts why? because in your own words they are a "perfect fit"!
 
Is this only available in Canada? I just looked on the US site and did not see it available for purchase.
 
Jmaichel said:
Is this only available in Canada? I just looked on the US site and did not see it available for purchase.

Could be out of stock maybe? I purchased the set when they first came out with no problems. I think it was said somewhere that they could run out because they had no idea of what the demand for them could be.
 
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