New Shop and Festool User

[woodbutcherbower]

I’ve always thought that the major problem with threads like these is that they can swiftly spiral completely out of control, simply because we’re all well-meaning good guys trying to give solid advice based on our own experiences. But if you take a random sample of (say) 50 of us - you’ll find 50 different shop setups, 50 different levels of skill and experience, 50 different endgames, 50 different budgets, 50 different sets of end-product ranging from simple hobby stuff to the kind of larger-scale commercial projects built by the likes of me and CRG, 50 different tool inventories etc. - and whilst it’s entirely natural and understandable for all of us to make recommendations on what works for each of us individually - we should always remember that the OP's needs will probably be a mile away from our own - and that in reality, we don't have the faintest clue what those needs are. Ask 50 woodworkers how to drill a hole and the best tools with which to do it = you’ll get 50 different answers, ranging from a CNC router with a spiral upcut, to a vintage brace & bit.

To illustrate what I mean - if you start from the beginning of the thread (the OP's portable Festool products hit-list), the first coupla posts do exactly what the OP asks - they suggest relatively minor adjustments to fine-tune his list for ‘building cabinets’. But all of a sudden we're down here, still on page 1, talking about handheld CNC with plates and software, a stationary table saw, a bandsaw, a drill press, a jointer, a planer/thicknesser, dedicated mitre saw extraction, chisels, planes, additional sanders, different equipment brands, different drills, different models and brands of routers, Japanese pull saws, different battery platforms and so on = all perfectly valid and reasonable suggestions within our individual and specific context .................. but all made with absolutely no idea about the OP's skill level, or what he's actually planning on building, or how often, or how many, or what out of, or for what purpose. And most significantly - how much time he has available to negotiate the learning curve regarding the use all of this hardware even to the bare minimum of its capacity.

Going forward, I believe it would be way more beneficial to newcomers for us to at least try and stay within their basic plan framework - and avoid ending up with a poor guy whos thoroughly confused by a snowstorm of well-meaning (but inevitably conflicting) alternatives. Just my opinion.

Kevin

 

[mkasdin]

I agree with most of the comments. Start with a budget $5,000 or $10k and decide what you want to do or need to do? I would make 2-3 separate buys out of your list depending on the build - application.
A tablesaw is definitely nice, so is a planer, a jointer and a bandsaw. Yah get some hand tools and 2 Japanese pull saws. I do like the MFT but it’s a little small and confining. Haven’t used the STM-1800 but I hear it’s good. Get your feet wet, before you jump into the pound.

If you want to go with Festool then get the MIDI Vac, 1-2 sanders and the ts-55. Get the router 1010 or the 1400. The Shaper is very cool so depending on what you like to do, I’m assuming this is a hobby will lead you into what tools to buy. GOOD LUCK.

 

[woodferret]

Regarding cabinets, I'm surprised there's no pocket screw jig   (even a R3 Kreg would do).

If it's not seen, it works well as a clamp for your dominos and just some parts of a cabinet are too fussy to domino all together.  Just saying.

 

[xedos]

but all made with absolutely no idea about the OP's skill level, or what he's actually planning on building, or how often, or how many, or what out of, or for what purpose. And most significantly - how much time he has available to negotiate the learning curve regarding the use all of this hardware even to the bare minimum of its capacity.

Going forward, I believe it would be way more beneficial to newcomers for us to at least try and stay within their basic plan framework - and avoid ending up with a poor guy who’s thoroughly confused by a snowstorm of well-meaning (but inevitably conflicting) alternatives. Just my opinion.

I believe we can reasonably assume the o.p. has little to no skill since he states: " I am new to cabinetmaking" and is asking for feedback on fitting out a shop.

I find your comment on what you believe is beneficial to newcomers to be quite rich........considering you added to said snowstorm yourself.  Things like this always generate conflicting suggestions - it's their very nature.  Besides, mywoodshop specifically asked "Am I missing anything below for a complete shop to get started? "  Taken at face value, it begs for additions and alternatives - which you, yourself were none too happy to provide.  It's prob. best for the o.p. to decide whether a myriad of suggestions is most helpful -or- a simple thumbs up/down on a list is more appropriate.  Because like you said : we don't really know what is best for the o.p.

Do you think he's better off here getting somewhat focused responses , even if those responses are an avalanche and conflicting

-or-

going it on his own browsing the interweb and youtubes spacey chats to glean info with little or no feedback on his conclusions. ? ? ?

Which snowstorm do you think is smaller ?  Too much information can certainly be overwhelming to many, but for those that ask for it.............I say pile it on until they cry uncle.

 

[John T.]

I'm going to very similar set up for a small 175 ft.² shop.

I would echo another recommendation to look at the dashboard portable workshop. If not their workbench at least the track hinge that you can use with the MFT/3. In my experience, it is a lot more accurate for cross cuts.

I'd also consider a small, portable, tablesaw like the compact saw stop. I've never found a simple, accurate way of getting rips on small pieces with the track saw set up. Particularly annoying are repeat cuts, or rips on already narrower than the track pieces.

Do you plan on milling rough lumber? I'm still undecided on a planer and jointer. I go back-and-forth between trying to get smaller and more portable options like the Dewalt planer, versus one of the higher and combo machines like the SCM FS 30C. But then I'll need to also have room for a dust extractor beyond the Festool HPLV. Whereas the portable Dewalt I can just take right outside and use without a dust extractor.

 

[woodbutcherbower]

I find your comment on what you believe is beneficial to newcomers to be quite rich........ considering you added to the snowstorm yourself.

Really? You should maybe take 30 seconds out of your day to read my first post again;

1 Your proposed extractor will only run 22-30 minutes on a charge. A better bet would be a mains-powered one with bigger capacity.
2 You have no guide rails for your plunge saw. You'll need these, because your proposed plunge saw won't work without them.
3 The old-style rail joiners are junk. Get better ones, unless your cabinets are going to feature subtly-angled long-edge cuts halfway down their length.
4 Cabinet construction will involve breaking down 4' x 8' sheets. Get a guide rail square. Guessing if your long edge is square to the short edge just won't cut it.
5 The MFK700's probably the wrong choice unless you're planning an awful lot of edgebanding. Here's a more appropriate Festool product (OF1010) which will do a multiplicity of jobs.

If a single FOG member can tell me why these absolute basics don't represent good, cost-effective advice - advice specifically focused and based solely on the OP's initial question and his initial list without megabucks worth of CNC and stationary add-ons - then I'd love to hear why. I'd also mention (maybe it's just a polite Brit thing) that I'm the only FOG member on this entire thread to have had the courtesy and humility to welcome this newbie into our community.

And as for you thinking it's appropriate to 'keep piling it on' and bludgeoning this newcomer into 'crying uncle' ?? I can't actually believe that a member of such an allegedly civilised community could conceivably regard that as being OK.  But hey - just my opinion, as I already said.

You have yourself a nice day now.

 

[Brian Livingstone]

I am as much as a Festool fanboy as the next man, however if I was starting out in cabinet making I would start with the Lamello Zeta P2.

 

[peacefulandpatriotically]

You are starting out. Woodworking is a satisfying hobby. I’ve built serious furniture for over 30 years, as well as renovated homes. In essence, the tools are similar, but may differ in important areas for each type of task. For example, in a workshop with space, a MFT will never adequately take the place of a table saw.

Generally, most purchase tools as they are needed, geared towards new tasks as they arise. Buying everything at once is often going to lead to poor choices as you come to depend on others and their generalisations. I would start with a table saw, router table, and cordless drill. Get a drill press if you can. Only then consider a MFT. Tools like a Origin should be waaay down the list. It comes down to what you plan to build … furniture, boxes, cutting boards …

I consider that the core of a workshop consists of table saw, jointer, thickness-planer, drill press, and sharpening equipment. That last item points to bladed items, such as chisel and hand planes - a block plane at the least. You really will limit your capability without hand tools. Becoming an all round woodworker involves both power- and hand tools.

I believe that too many new woodworkers rush to buy tools that shortcut joinery. Dominos and biscuits have limitations. Before investing in these, learn to make joinery the old fashioned way. This will not only teach you skills and provide insights into wood, movement and longevity, but allow you to expand the design choices you may wish to make.

Take your time in building the workshop. It will not run away.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Derek's post is in my opinion, far and away the most valuable in this thread (with woodbutcherbower's comments on battery powered dust extraction being a close second).  I'd like to add that each hand tool and power tool/machinery has a learning curve.  Again, this is just my humble opinion: learning how to use 5 new tools or machines simultaneously, WHILE also trying to understand fundamentals of building furniture or even simple plywood cabinets is a recipe for mediocre results, frustration and may even cause you to "hit a wall" in the sense that you will get so tangled up with your tooling that you fail to complete projects. JUST MY TWO CENTS [smile].  Regardless of what you do, welcome to the community, mywoodshop!

 

[peacefulandpatriotically]

I am as much as a Festool fanboy as the next man, however if I was starting out in cabinet making I would start with the Lamello Zeta P2.

Brian, I'd love to hear more about this recommendation, why specifically do you prefer that machine?

 

[mywoodshop]

You are starting out. Woodworking is a satisfying hobby. I’ve built serious furniture for over 30 years, as well as renovated homes. In essence, the tools are similar, but may differ in important areas for each type of task. For example, in a workshop with space, a MFT will never adequately take the place of a table saw.

Generally, most purchase tools as they are needed, geared towards new tasks as they arise. Buying everything at once is often going to lead to poor choices as you come to depend on others and their generalisations. I would start with a table saw, router table, and cordless drill. Get a drill press if you can. Only then consider a MFT. Tools like a Origin should be waaay down the list. It comes down to what you plan to build … furniture, boxes, cutting boards …

I consider that the core of a workshop consists of table saw, jointer, thickness-planer, drill press, and sharpening equipment. That last item points to bladed items, such as chisel and hand planes - a block plane at the least. You really will limit your capability without hand tools. Becoming an all round woodworker involves both power- and hand tools.

I believe that too many new woodworkers rush to buy tools that shortcut joinery. Dominos and biscuits have limitations. Before investing in these, learn to make joinery the old fashioned way. This will not only teach you skills and provide insights into wood, movement and longevity, but allow you to expand the design choices you may wish to make.

Take your time in building the workshop. It will not run away.

Regards from Perth

Derek

Thanks Derek.

You have helped steer me back to the roots of why I wanted to do this in the first place. My overall goal is to eventually grow into manufacturing residential cabinets using I4.0 automation. I felt I needed to understand the industry, the materials, the way wood moves and changes first and my plan was to start out of my garage with the tools you have mentioned, including pocket screws as well. I went down a rabbit hole of Domino Youtube videos and MFT and how that can ease the process in a small setting. Reading all the comments brought me back to this basic idea of enjoying the process of learning with a planer, jointer, etc. and learning to mill the wood.

I was leaning towards a Hammer Winner with Comfort Package and A1-36 planer/jointer combo but these two machines will eat all my budget  [eek]! I am leaning towards Saw Stop as a beginner to keep my fingers and benchtop planer for space saving.

Festool for dust extraction for mitre saw, sanders and router. King for the larger extraction.

Now I need to figure out what router bits I will need for the door styles and rails and panel insets etc. I have a feeling that will be a process of further research

Again, I appreciate all the feedback as they all provide value in one way or another. Confusion helps to slow down and get back to the basic drawing board at times  [tongue]

 

[woodferret]

I went down a rabbit hole of Domino Youtube videos and MFT and how that can ease the process in a small setting... I am leaning towards Saw Stop as a beginner to keep my fingers and benchtop planer for space saving.

Look up Honeybadger woodworks on Youtube.  She uses primarily table saw splines and dados for alignment, and MT for strength.  There's a lot of trenching with a radial arm saw in that shop too.
That covers most of what we use the DF500 for anyways.  Keep in mind some of the non-cabinet sawstops don't accept dado stacks.  Nevermind that long boards also become unwieldly on the smaller saws, hence why dominos and other 'bring the tool to the work' approaches may work better in certain scenarios.
 

 

[Vtshopdog]

My input echos some of the comments above:

Generally, as a hobby guy I've had very good luck and been frustration and failure free by slowly, organically adding tooling and competencies as I go along.  Maybe pick a core group of tools that allow you get started and go from there.

For example, I might pick one project that requires learning a style of joinery or another project to explore a wood species, but always incrementally adding capability and not trying to master multiple things at same time.  Sometimes the project requires that I purchase a fun new tool and other times my want of a fun new tool dictates I find a project that justifies purchasing it.  Don't get so focused on machinery that you discount learning about wood, assembly and finishing techniques.

I think the single hardest skill for me to learn was when to stop for the day rather than push on while tired.

I have an in law that has purchased more tooling than he (literally) knows what to do with.  He recently purchased a Shaper Origin and immediately attempted a difficult project from their online catalog.  The thing he built looks like s**t , he doesn't know basics of router operation like how to deal with end grain, picked a difficult highly figured species and I think project was doomed from his own ambition.  Kinda sad in my book.

 

[ElectricFeet]

I have an in law that has purchased more tooling than he (literally) knows what to do with.  He recently purchased a Shaper Origin and immediately attempted a difficult project from their online catalog.  The thing he built looks like s**t , he doesn't know basics of router operation like how to deal with end grain, picked a difficult highly figured species and I think project was doomed from his own ambition.

The first project I ever built looked like s**t too — it too was stupidly ambitious for a first project. And the wood I bought was sold looked like a banana after two days at home, because I had no idea about wood. But I still have it 40 years later and I am really proud of it. I’m sure his next project will look better as he figures it all out.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I am as much as a Festool fanboy as the next man, however if I was starting out in cabinet making I would start with the Lamello Zeta P2.

Brian, I'd love to hear more about this recommendation, why specifically do you prefer that machine?

I would too. I have a Zeta P2 and think it's a fantastic tool.....along side of my DF500. I use them together often, but, if I had to give up one of them, it would be the Zeta. The DF500 is far more versatile.
The Zeta fittings (Tenso, Clamex) suffer the same problems that regular biscuits have....width. There are many places where they just won't fit.
The Zeta's advantage is that they can pull a joint together, something a normal Domino can't do, hence the Domino connectors. They are just not as simple as the Zeta, plus the Tenso is tool-less and invisible.

 

[squall_line]

I am as much as a Festool fanboy as the next man, however if I was starting out in cabinet making I would start with the Lamello Zeta P2.

Brian, I'd love to hear more about this recommendation, why specifically do you prefer that machine?

I would too. I have a Zeta P2 and think it's a fantastic tool.....along side of my DF500. I use them together often, but, if I had to give up one of them, it would be the Zeta. The DF500 is far more versatile.
The Zeta fittings (Tenso, Clamex) suffer the same problems that regular biscuits have....width. There are many places where they just won't fit.
The Zeta's advantage is that they can pull a joint together, something a normal Domino can't do, hence the Domino connectors. They are just not as simple as the Zeta, plus the Tenso is tool-less and invisible.

Of the three melamine SYS-Ports that I built, my favorite/least hassle was the one I made with the Zeta P2.  I still ended up using a fe dominoes on the stretchers, but alignment and assembly with the Clamex connectors was almost a joy.

My least favorite was dominoes with glue and clamps.  Perhaps if I had sucked it up and used some screws alongside I could have avoided a lot of the clamping hassles.

The DF500 connectors weren't bad to work with, just tedious to get all of the various connector pieces installed and together before assembly.  It was also the first one I built, and three bays wide.  If I had started with glue/clamp and three bays, I'd have probably sold all of my tools.

 

[woodferret]

I think the irony of [member=80055]mywoodshop[/member] 's eventual goals of i4 automation of residential cabinets kinda puts a damper on the DF500/Zeta discussion.  You'd probably end up with basic lamello carbineos, although a 5-axis (and some combos of 3/4-axis) will do zeta p2 connectors*.

I would deviate from most of the woodworker suggestions here and go back to suggesting the Shaper Origin as one of your tools to look at.  With Plate, you'll get hands-on manual set up of hardware like carbineos and even basic layout of LR32 bore holes in digital form. 

*https://www.lamello.com/p-system-introduction/

If however your focus is the logistical side of I4R, then ya - learning the bespoke tools of the trade might be useful to some extent, but the volume and automation side has deviated substantially from this, IMO.  Material selection has also deviated in that subgroup because flat/stable/accurate is king when it comes to automation.  Manual workers can deal with a lot more give/take in our material choices.  Just pointing out the maybe not so obvious differences in industry/approaches.