New tool day: TS 60 K + track

[tkrfxrs]

Will be very interesting to see how you feel about the 60 in a few months.  My 55 was always underpowered, and I returned it under warranty as it would not even cut 1/2 inch plywood.  Festool, as usual, blamed the electrical feed, the blade, etc. but said they had fixed it.  I moved, and didn't use the saw for almost a year after it was returned, and when I did, it was as gutless as ever.  I sent it in again, and they want 393 to fix a saw they didn't fix under warranty.  This tool may well be a dud, so I would encourage you to get it looked at ASAP for the "slow wind" problem.  My 90 dollar Ryobi rips through the same material without requiring a counseling session before hand.  Now I'm stuck with miles of track rails and afraid to get the 75.  I've got about everything else Festool, including the VAC SYS they shipped me the week they discontinued it.  Sometimes companies, or great sports teams, or other organizations with strong brands become complacent, thinking their customers or fans will stay with them regardless of what they put out there.  It may be time for a fresh taste test of the green Kool-Aid.

 

[sebr023]

And what’s the green look aid? Ryobi?

You suggesting I should send mine back for warranty?

I should find someone in my area that has a ts60 and compare with his!

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[Lincoln]

To be fair, the Zeta P2 has two things going for it from a cordless standpoint:

It does not actually REQUIRE extraction, as the blade action is rotational and self-clearing, unlike the plunge action of the Domino; it just makes a mess without extraction.

The battery platform for the Zeta P2 is CAS, which is multi-platform rather than strictly proprietary, although more likely to be supported in Europe than other parts of the world.

The trouble for us here in OZ is we get the bottom end of most gear the rest of the world enjoys, usually at a price premium to make your eyes water. Lamello a case in point, ignoring if I want the cordless version it's an extra $600 over the corded, it cost me around $3200 for the corded tool and accessory kit. If I want the 2 little 5mm alignment pins, that's nearly $70, same for the pressed sheetmetal marker gauge for the Divario connectors, that's not much below $400, so in both cases I made my own for maybe $5 total.

Even the connectors are a killer, a pack of 80 Clamex's are over $400, a carton of 300 Tenso's are $1150, luckily I can buy the aftermarket ones that are literally 1/10th the cost and in my testing perform absolutely identically, but for batteries though I'm at the mercy of the single solitary Australian distributor at nearly $500 for a single 5.5AH, and I've tried almost every major reseller in the States and Uk and they simply will not ship to OZ, so there must be an agreement blocking sales to OZ.

https://www.discounttrader.com.au/p...c6NmuIIcI7EUa7rWScfFpd3YCCa-chGxoCBvcQAvD_BwE

 

[alltracman78]

Will be very interesting to see how you feel about the 60 in a few months.  My 55 was always underpowered, and I returned it under warranty as it would not even cut 1/2 inch plywood.  Festool, as usual, blamed the electrical feed, the blade, etc. but said they had fixed it.  I moved, and didn't use the saw for almost a year after it was returned, and when I did, it was as gutless as ever.  I sent it in again, and they want 393 to fix a saw they didn't fix under warranty.  This tool may well be a dud, so I would encourage you to get it looked at ASAP for the "slow wind" problem.  My 90 dollar Ryobi rips through the same material without requiring a counseling session before hand.  Now I'm stuck with miles of track rails and afraid to get the 75.  I've got about everything else Festool, including the VAC SYS they shipped me the week they discontinued it.  Sometimes companies, or great sports teams, or other organizations with strong brands become complacent, thinking their customers or fans will stay with them regardless of what they put out there.  It may be time for a fresh taste test of the green Kool-Aid.

That sounds more like a your saw problem and not a general TS55 problem.
I'm very much in the it's too small and under powered camp (I have the HK55), but it should have no problem cutting 1/2 ply.

The TS75 is fairly powerful. I've ripped 2 inch bone dry hickory with it, as well as completely buried the full blade depth ripping the entire length of a 12? foot white oak log. It did trip the overtemp once in the log; can't totally blame it there. It was a hot summer day and it was on the end of 150? foot extension cord.

 

[Coen]

On topic;

[member=61254]mino[/member] - Agreed. You forgot to mention the 'elephant in the room' though - the fact that 'Hallelujah !! Freedom from being tethered by cords !!!' is the rallying cry of the cordless brigade as they make their cordless saw cuts - whilst being tethered to their extractor by the equivalent of a 3.5m long/36mm-diameter firehose-sized 'cord' instead.

It might also be a bit more of an American thing with the fatter cords everywhere. Because half the voltage, double the current = 4x the copper to limit losses to the same.

1 - Horrific initial purchase cost.

Most buyers use government subsidies for that. In some countries some battery cars are nearly free, especially for corporate buyers. Like you could deduct the expensive from taxable income twice...

2 - Horrific depreciation.

As with any car?

3 - Horrific insurance, repair and maintenance cost.

Yeah, because what we have seen a lot so far is electrification of the wankpanzer category. And of course because some brands act like Apple.

4 - Horrific tyre wear.

Due to heavier weight and too high torque. The acceleration should have been limited as a requirement for any subsidy. That would have decreased the amount of "accidents" too.

5 - Proven unreliability compared with ICE vehicles. Endless software glitches and more besides - the simplest of which can often completely disable the vehicle. Think of an underdeveloped, rushed-to-market Beta-test with a wheel bolted to each corner.

So like a PS400?

6 - Pathetic charging infrastructure.

That probably highly depends on region. Where I live there are a ton of public charging stations in residential streets and anyone that can park on own ground just gets his own 11 kW 3-phase charger.

7 - No likelihood of an improvement to #6 as a basic 4-bay charging station costs $750,000 and no investors are buying as there's no return on such a huge investment.

Really? Regional government over here just let commercial parties install chargers all over the place at zero cost to the government, regulated kWh prices and at the end of the not even that long term of the contract, ownership of all hardware reverts to the local governments.

8 - A power source (battery) which costs $50-60,000 to replace when it wears out. As it inevitably will. How many people reading this have 5-year-old all-day-daily-use iPhones with 100% functional batteries?

That price is 3+ times higher than reality. Battery prices have come down a lot. Perhaps your figure is from quite a few years ago?

9 - They don't work when it gets cold.

They do, but with reduced range. As any Lithium battery suffers in extreme cold and extreme heat.

10 - You're screwed if you ever want to tow anything or go uphill. Your battery range just halved.

You can do regenerative braking on the downhill.

11 - If you do tow, you'll need to unhitch your trailer and park it somewhere safe so you can get into a charging bay.

That depends on how you design the charging station. The trailer won't be a problem with some of those next to the highway here.

12 - But all those bays are already full because there aren't enough of them. You'll need to wait around until one becomes free.
13 - By the time you've done that and charged, your 150-mile journey will already have taken 4 hours. Likely more.
14 - Now multiply that by the mileage you'd like to do for that special weekend away with your family. Say 300 miles each way in an ICE car - there and back on a tank. But even if your car is a small one with a small tank - a 3-minute gas station pump, and you're good to go again. In an EV - multiple charging stops (if you can find chargers), and a 30-40% minimum increase in your journey time featuring restless, hot, sweaty kids. You daren't turn on the AC because it kills another precious 10% of your remaining 30-mile range. Roadside burger or coffee stops whilst hanging around charging? It gets real old. Real quick.

Yeah that sounds a lot like range anxiety  [tongue]. Of 99% households with two cars, one can be replaced by a battery car without any problem whatsoever.

15 - Live in Alaska? Or the Appalachians? Or Montana? Or Colorado? Or New Mexico? Or anywhere else featuring massive, wide-open spaces with hundreds of miles between towns? Once again - you're screwed. I'm a Brit living in a country smaller than just one of your states and my knowledge of the geography of your wonderful country is limited (hence the wild 'Big Country' guesses above), but even here - a 58-million-inhabitants country hyped with so-called 'EV awareness', we only have around 5% of the necessary infrastructure to support a ridiculously-impossible 'All EV by 2030' Government mandate. An entire country less than the size of Texas. 5% infrastructure. Heaven help you guys.

What happened to the other 8 million? 58 million was in 2000? Assuming you live in the UK

16 - What about trucks? And railroad locomotives? And airplanes? And bulldozers? And farm tractors? And cranes? And ships? And all the other zillion huge diesel, gas and aviation-fuel-powered machines which enable us to live the lives we live?

The German cars are brought to port by electric locomotives. The coal for the Ruhr area arrived by electric train from the port of Rotterdam.

#17 - #132 = I'll let you do some basic research and figure it out. But I just specifically wanted to mention;

22 - What about the huge number of catastrophic Li-Ion EV fires? The ones the fire departments can't put out because of stratospheric burn temperatures and the likelihood of re-ignition - sometimes days later? And the full HAZMAT teams now needed at every EV fire because the runoff fire-department extinguishing water is now critically contaminated with toxic chemicals?

There's a reason why auto manufacturers have thousands of unsold EV's on their dealer lots, there's a reason why many of them have either drastically reduced (or totally halted) production altogether. There's a reason why early corporate adopters like Hertz are currently offloading 20,000 EV's because they're losing money on every rental. Buyers don't want them because they're unaffordable to the Ordinary Joe, and they're totally impractical apart from being a rich person's crazy-expensive golf cart to go to the mall and back in - all whilst feeling great about how you're saving the planet. Spoiler alert = you're not. Your battery raw materials have involved hundreds of thousands of tons of minerals being mined and processed, and the electricity you've used to charge it has probably come from somewhere like a coal-fired power station which belches out more toxic sludge every minute than a thousand Kenworth diesel trucks produce in a week, or maybe from a nuclear plant producing waste which takes 500 years to become non-radioactive, or maybe from a gas-fired plant using up all the fossil-fuel resources EV's are supposed to be saving.

They aren't selling because of lapsed subsidies. Whenever some subsidy scheme on EV's runs out, sales often drop 90%. As for the energy; the % of renewables is increasing at a rapid pace. There are more and more days NL can run completely on wind energy. You can get a dynamic contract here with negative energy prices (it follows the spot price). During Pentecost afternoon, the whole of northwest Europe except the UK  [tongue] had negative prices for electricity.

There aren't 100.000s pounds of minerals mined for a car. I think you got 'soil moved' mixed up with 'minerals mines'.

I don't want to come across as some kind of looney-tunes EV-hating evangelist, and I therefore won't go into the specifics of how I know all this (cue longest post in FOG history)........ but it's sufficient to say that as an environmentally-aware citizen of the world - I believed the glossy marketing BS, I believed I was truly doing a good thing, and I was foolishly sucked into the false hype. So I reached deep, deep into my pocket, and I tried it. An EV version of the same van I'd happily driven for the past 9 years. 18 months in - I've had to buy a new diesel van as well to earn a living, having already turned down at least $30,000 worth of work because I knew my van wouldn't get me there and back in a day and there were no chargers in the rural areas involved. I still haven't been able to sell the immaculate, as-new EV version - not even for half of its initial purchase cost. Only a year and a half in - and I'm more than $70,000 in the hole.

No thanks.

Kevin

Well yes, the problem of claimed 'fuel efficiency' being grossly better than actual becomes a bigger problem with EV than with ICE cars.

Will be very interesting to see how you feel about the 60 in a few months.  My 55 was always underpowered, and I returned it under warranty as it would not even cut 1/2 inch plywood.  Festool, as usual, blamed the electrical feed, the blade, etc. but said they had fixed it.  I moved, and didn't use the saw for almost a year after it was returned, and when I did, it was as gutless as ever.  I sent it in again, and they want 393 to fix a saw they didn't fix under warranty.  This tool may well be a dud, so I would encourage you to get it looked at ASAP for the "slow wind" problem.  My 90 dollar Ryobi rips through the same material without requiring a counseling session before hand.  Now I'm stuck with miles of track rails and afraid to get the 75.  I've got about everything else Festool, including the VAC SYS they shipped me the week they discontinued it.  Sometimes companies, or great sports teams, or other organizations with strong brands become complacent, thinking their customers or fans will stay with them regardless of what they put out there.  It may be time for a fresh taste test of the green Kool-Aid.

What blade?

 

[luvmytoolz]

The idea that having charged batteries is some type of horrible chore is absurd…

Until that "one tool" that uses a battery incompatible with the particular platform you're heavily invested in is flat when you go to use it!

Then it most certainly is a chore.

 

[mino]

The comparison of cordless tools- corded. Is nothing like ev to ice. A lot of flawed logic here and false parallels being drawn. The idea that cordless tools are a “fad” or that people that use them are part of a “brigade” is absurd though. Even tools that were traditionally stationary can benefit greatly from being cordless if the use case makes sense and the tool performance is on par.

Even in a shop setting a cordless TS can match a the corded version (not necessarily better but on par) plus provide the additional functionality of being cordless. The idea that having charged batteries is some type of horrible chore is absurd…

Again there is no right or wrong here there are just different use cases and personal preference

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It is not a "horrible chore". No one said so. But it is a chore.

I am a creative person. Mind wandering all the time. For me, every single thing I have to "keep in mind" means I cannot use that brainpower for something useful.

It takes several minutes to "restart" a creative mind after some "simple" action needed to be done interrupting it. 5 times a day and half an hour of productivity is lost one does not even know how. That it is tiring is only a "bonus". A very unwelcome one if it is a hobby which is supposed to be relaxing.

That said, this cost is different for everyone, for some negligible. But it is never zero.

 

[luvmytoolz]

The idea that having charged batteries is some type of horrible chore is absurd…

Until that "one tool" that uses a battery incompatible with the particular platform you're heavily invested in is flat when you go to use it!

Then it most certainly is a chore.

Just buy tools that integrate with the battery platform you want to use? Every major brand makes basically all of their tools in a cordless model. It’s clearly not for everyone but it’s definitely not complicated… people got laughed at cordless drills were first brought to the market and came to jobsites and professional shops. The performance of these tools have improved so much though and integrating them into your workflow can have enormous benefits.

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Apart from Makita tools what's compatible with the Makita batteries that I have a sizeable amount of?

And more to the point, what of any possibly compatible tools would be the percentage I would want to actually own simply for the sake of being battery compatible?

"Just buy" isn't always the answer, especially in OZ where everything you can buy can cost us up to 3 times as much, if not more, than almost anywhere else in the world!

 

[Coen]

Previous models Cox branded caulk guns work with Makita 18V batteries. As does the Uponor press

 

[Cheese]

Apart from Makita tools what's compatible with the Makita batteries that I have a sizeable amount of?

Here's a website that sells all types of battery adapters.
https://powertoolsadapters.com/collections/makita-battery-adapter

 

[Coen]

Apart from Makita tools what's compatible with the Makita batteries that I have a sizeable amount of?

Here's a website that sells all types of battery adapters.
https://powertoolsadapters.com/collections/makita-battery-adapter

Yeah, that is a quick way to ruin batteries. It only took me 3 seconds to see the adapter that takes 18V Bosch batteries has two contacts. This 100% means that neither the temperature sensor is read nor the signal 'battery = empty'. This allows for using the battery into thermal runaway and into deep discharge. Bosch batteries DO NOT cut off in the battery. They provide the tool with the signal that they are empty or overheated and the tool has to respect that. Those adapter do not.
That also means the Q&A on those adapter is 100% bogus as they claim ;

Q: Will the battery adapter damage my battery or tool?

Absolutely not! Our battery adapter is specifically designed to ensure the safety of both your battery and tool throughout usage.

Real answer: the adapter negates the deep discharge protection, meaning you can discharge your battery straight into dead. It also bypasses the thermal protection, possible causing the battery to ignite leading which might lead to personal injury and destruction of property.

Then onto;

Q: Are there any precautions I should take with batteries without safety components?

If your battery lacks these safety components, we recommend not fully discharging it and ceasing adapter usage when the battery reaches around 20% charge. This precaution ensures optimal performance and longevity.

Real answer; while other brands might do the cut-off in the battery itself, Bosch 18V batteries have their + and - terminals hard wired to the output. The deep discharge protection is only created by the tool respecting the signalled wishes of the battery. Our adapter kills this communication, so even though you might think it's protected, it is not.
Also; since we bypassed the thermal protection too, using the battery to overheating might cause fires, battery explosion, exposure to chemicals known to the state of California to cause cancer, birth defects or other reproductive harm and property damage. Use at own risk.

They might have included series undervoltage release in the adapter, but I highly doubt they even did that.

 

[glass1]

In the states where we are really limited to 120 volts on site, I find it silly the whole married to ac voltage short sited. Battery tools have equaled and/or surpassed the power of 120 volts ac with 15 amp or 20 amp breakers available. The metabo hpt (now flex) table saws are a  start with there battery table saws running at 36 and 24 volts respectfully. They both offer an ac adapter(not like the failed dewalt flexvolt miter saw) where the saw still runs on its battery voltage with an adapter available to plug into ac power.
Now here is an idea, instead of making battery power stations that run on each companies respective batteries and invert the power to 120 volts ac the power pack should just produce the respect battery voltage. The companies would make a full range of their tools in their respect battery voltage. Makita would make a 18/36 power pack. Milwaukee and Bosch 18, dewalt 18/54, festool 18/36, etc. You would just plug your battery tools right into it no conversion loss. The battery plug is just a feed thru.

 

[Coen]

The adapter will be huge for power hungry tools and has to be very close or voltage sag will be an issue. This has been beaten to death many times.

 

[Michael Kellough]

[member=4687]glass1[/member]  what do you mean by this?

“The metabo hpt (now flex) table saws‘

 

[Alanbach]

Wow! I just read this whole thread because I am possibly interested in upgrading to the TS60 and selling my TS55 and my HK55. This thread really took a hard left turn at corded vs. cordless!

 

[glass1]

really huge ? like the metabo hpt ?

 

[sebr023]

Wow! I just read this whole thread because I am possibly interested in upgrading to the TS60 and selling my TS55 and my HK55. This thread really took a hard left turn at corded vs. cordless[emoji4]!

I know, I don’t read  the reply anymore [emoji88]

Tried steering it back on subject but didn’t work

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