Newbie question: can MFT and TSC replace my table saw?

[Michael Kellough]

When routing a grove make sure to go the right direction so the dust pickup passes over the debris trail instead of leaving it behind.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Looks good. That's a nice set up you have gong. The router is going to be more of a challenge, of course depending on what kind of cuts you make. The chip deflector cup for the Festool routers does a very good job on edge profiles, but it may miss some at the end of the cut, similar to the TS.
Pocket-type cuts, like mortises are more fully contained, allowing for good capture of the dust too, with an  OF.  The other brands, are nowhere near as good.

 

[prjones]

Thanks everyone for the encouragement and ideas...here's a quick update!
I was able to finish and install the cabinet boxes for my modeling station/work table (I'm into miniatures, dioramas, and LEGOOOOO for dayzzzz), and my 2nd MFT arrived yesterday from Woodcraft!

Next up: build and install 6 drawers for the modeling station, then get to work on building two base cabinets with Systainer storage, a place for the dust extractor, and a bank of drawers for more storage (Fusion screenshot below of my working sketch). Shop infrastructure are some of my favorite things to design and build, anyone else? I'm obsessed with the efficiency and organization of it all.

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[prjones]

Hey guys! Thought I'd share a few photos of the new *indoor* Festool studio. You all have helped me so much get started and make decisions. Building indoors in our condo continues to be a perfect solution - ZERO noise outside our unit and I don't have to set up and tear down every time.

The painted cabinets are for a modeling station and I color matched the green drawer fronts to the Festool green. I'm in love with all of it! Phase 2 is to start on the MFT cabinets, systainer cabinets, and building out the Omniwall. Thanks for sharing the journey with me!

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[HighlandMarine]

Check out the Dashboard PWS too, it has some good work arounds for repeatable thin rips.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Is that paint on your drawers? I wanted to do that for several years, but was never motivated enough to actually spend the money on it....then one day, this job came up. The laminate color was perfect, so I saved the drop, from when I built it. Next day, and some touch latches, done. After nearly three years, procrastination paid off. I still have some more stashed too.
I could have had it mixed up and painted some MDF slabs years ago  [big grin]

 

[Jim_in_PA]

Is that paint on your drawers? I wanted to do that for several years, but was never motivated enough to actually spend the money on it....then one day, this job came up. The laminate color was perfect, so I saved the drop, from when I built it. Next day, and some touch latches, done. After nearly three years, procrastination paid off. I still have some more stashed too.
I could have had it mixed up and painted some MDF slabs years ago  [big grin]

I just built cabinets for my Systainers and wanted the "Festool Green" highlights on my drawer/shelve fronts, etc. My local Sherwin Williams did a match off a Systainer latch in a quart of their "Sample" paint...for ten bucks. The "Sample" paint isn't anything I'd want to paint my walls with, but for this application, it was inexpensive and doing three coats for these splashes of color didn't really require a whole lot of work. That little bit of color really "kicks things up a notch"

 

[prjones]

Is that paint on your drawers? I wanted to do that for several years, but was never motivated enough to actually spend the money on it....then one day, this job came up. The laminate color was perfect, so I saved the drop, from when I built it. Next day, and some touch latches, done. After nearly three years, procrastination paid off. I still have some more stashed too.
I could have had it mixed up and painted some MDF slabs years ago  [big grin]

Paint it is! I prefer Sherwin Williams, but Home Depot is closer and their Behr Dynasty is a close 2nd. Had them color match the Festool sustainer latch.

That laminate is delicious - was it an art piece or a cabinet or both?

 

[prjones]

Looking good [member=66562]Jim_in_PA[/member] !
You're right about that green...at first I was a bit turned off to it but in reality I LOVE ALL COLOR EVERYWHERE and now I need little dashes of it here and there. I even bought Bombas socks with a bit of Festool green...I'm obsessed.  [laughing]
https://shop.bombas.com/products/mens-lightweight-athletic-ankle-socks?variant=black&size=xl

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Paint it is! I prefer Sherwin Williams, but Home Depot is closer and their Behr Dynasty is a close 2nd. Had them color match the Festool Systainer latch.

That laminate is delicious - was it an art piece or a cabinet or both?

It is a cabinet/shelving unit. There is a loose back to be added during install.

 

[jeh]

You can go without a table saw but having one makes some tasks easier. If you have a table saw I would not sell it until you have complicated a decent sized project without it. If you did not have one then you'll be fine because you will not what you are missing.

 

[TSO_Products]

- completely agree with this experience based advice.
Smart move on your part to ask for advice and welcome to the FOG!

Eventually you want ton consider a small formfactor table saw with a proven fence system like DeWalt models under $ 600 and very capable new FESTOOL CSC50 cordless Table saw. When you need to cut narrow and/or  small parts like face frames and the like you'll really appreciate your overall system approach.

Pay it forward and Post your progress on the FOG as you journey into woodworking!

Hans

PS: We, TSO Products, do not sell any brand of table saw ourselves and instead focus on the accessory gap left by the big brands.

 

[Ebuwan]

My buddy and I did his whole kitchen, and wanted to do it all in the driveway with just the Festool system. It was 80 sheets of plywood to break down.

I had a cabinet saw the whole time, but we wanted to just do it all while we broke it down. Now, keep in mind, FIRST time going hard core with MFT's and the track saw like this, but we fought, and fought, and fought to get accurate cuts on the setup. No matter what we did, it would be out like 1mm front to back on panels. I mean we really really really tried; my buddy does machinist level quality work. The MFT for cross cuts, breaking down with parallel guides on a STM 1800,etc etc.

Fast forward a few years later and being better acquainted, thinking I would be better at it, but even now i'll work on my setup for an hour out in the driveway and my panels will not come out perfectly square. Even a few years ago, I had the woodpeckers giant square, the woodpecker phenolic MFT triangle (Which was our first problem a few years ago, we squared it based on the holes; what a mistake, we checked after all these panels where coming out not square, and we noticed some holes were looser than other, giving JUST a slight amount of play.) I even have the 3000mm track, cuz i found connecting tracks was giving problems.

I'm planning to eventually get the MFT sanity bundle from Dashboard when i have a big panel breakdown project again, and I just may resort to just doing rough breakdown and final on the table saw.

 

[mino]

My buddy and I did his whole kitchen, and wanted to do it all in the driveway with just the Festool system. It was 80 sheets of plywood to break down.

I had a cabinet saw the whole time, but we wanted to just do it all while we broke it down. Now, keep in mind, FIRST time going hard core with MFT's and the track saw like this, but we fought, and fought, and fought to get accurate cuts on the setup. No matter what we did, it would be out like 1mm front to back on panels. I mean we really really really tried; my buddy does machinist level quality work. The MFT for cross cuts, breaking down with parallel guides on a STM 1800,etc etc.

Fast forward a few years later and being better acquainted, thinking I would be better at it, but even now i'll work on my setup for an hour out in the driveway and my panels will not come out perfectly square. Even a few years ago, I had the woodpeckers giant square, the woodpecker phenolic MFT triangle (Which was our first problem a few years ago, we squared it based on the holes; what a mistake, we checked after all these panels where coming out not square, and we noticed some holes were looser than other, giving JUST a slight amount of play.) I even have the 3000mm track, cuz i found connecting tracks was giving problems.

I'm planning to eventually get the MFT sanity bundle from Dashboard when i have a big panel breakdown project again, and I just may resort to just doing rough breakdown and final on the table saw.

I am no pro, and it took me some time to get accurate cuts. So some points below:

What I faced (and learned to account for to remediate):
- Makita rails not being (as) accurate as FS/2
  => buy only FS/2 rails

- for rips, the rail can flex longitudally enough to be 0.5 mm off in the middle of the cut easily - the issue is the anti-slip pads are soo anti-slip they can actually "afix" a longitudal bend if one is not knowledgeable of this issue
  => after a long (2000 mmm+) rail is placed by marks or PGs, carefully lift it and place it back in such a way no side-force is left "captured" by the anti-slip pads

- Mafell/Bosh rails being more "flexy" that FS/2 BUT thanks to not sticking to the stock (so clamps are a must) they also do not "afix" a tension bend
  => with FS/2 see above, with Madell/Bosch be careful when joined rails are used and clamping is needed to void the same

- the fixed-angle rail squares like the GRS 16 or the FS/WA 90˚ depend on lucking-out that the *back* of the rail being used is absolutely straight, if not (which is common) any imprecision gets amplified by the length of the cut
  => use the adjustable FS/WA square calibrated *along with the rail* by a DIN class 1 or better engineer's square
  => if having no adjustable square, TEST a combination of rail + GRS 16 (FS/WA 90) using the 5-cut method for any systemic errors before cutting valuable stock with it

- when clamping a rail, it is easy to introduce flex/bend during the clamping operation
  => after clamped, recheck the position of the rail, do not over-tighten the clamps

- all the rails are NOT exactly the same on their guiding rib width, so if using a saw with the simpler cams (original TS 55, Makita SP 6000 etc.) - which are not elastic like on the TS 55R and newer - the saw needs to be tightened for each rail regularly
  => if having ghe TS 55 R style cams, tighten the saw for the "widest" tracks, when cutting just push the saw slightly "into" the rail to make sure it stays on the reference edge of the track s much as possible
  => if having a saw with the simple cams, carefully test the freedom of movement of the saw on all one's tracks and adjust accordingly when seeking absolutely precise cuts

Lastly, beforre making a "new way of cutting" make sure to test for any systemic errors. Do not just "trust the tool" to do it for one. Hand tools are no CNCs. Technique is as much and often more important as the tool quality.

====================
In general, after messing around per above, I now get within

 

[Ebuwan]

Awesome write up; yep, ALL those things. For example, i have the woodpecker parallel guides, and the 3000mm rail. By yourself, clamping down the ends, you have to run back and forth and check em, on an 8ft rip. It just kills SO much time, its maddening when it happens.

 

[lshj]

It makes me headach just reading the posts about how to get accurate cut by using MFT. Why not just buy a new festool small table saw, much smaller than the MFT and could get reliable repeat cut as long as not cutting big size board.

I have the TS55 and festool dust extractor. The dust collection for TS55 is very disappointing to me, lots of dust to the front of the blade. The dust collection for the csc 50 table saw is actually much better than TS55.

 

[Lincoln]

My buddy and I did his whole kitchen, and wanted to do it all in the driveway with just the Festool system. It was 80 sheets of plywood to break down.

I had a cabinet saw the whole time, but we wanted to just do it all while we broke it down. Now, keep in mind, FIRST time going hard core with MFT's and the track saw like this, but we fought, and fought, and fought to get accurate cuts on the setup. No matter what we did, it would be out like 1mm front to back on panels. I mean we really really really tried; my buddy does machinist level quality work. The MFT for cross cuts, breaking down with parallel guides on a STM 1800,etc etc.

Fast forward a few years later and being better acquainted, thinking I would be better at it, but even now i'll work on my setup for an hour out in the driveway and my panels will not come out perfectly square. Even a few years ago, I had the woodpeckers giant square, the woodpecker phenolic MFT triangle (Which was our first problem a few years ago, we squared it based on the holes; what a mistake, we checked after all these panels where coming out not square, and we noticed some holes were looser than other, giving JUST a slight amount of play.) I even have the 3000mm track, cuz i found connecting tracks was giving problems.

I'm planning to eventually get the MFT sanity bundle from Dashboard when i have a big panel breakdown project again, and I just may resort to just doing rough breakdown and final on the table saw.

I recently got the TSO 'MFT Aligned' upgrade kit and it appears to fix all of the issues with the rail hinge, height adjustment and rail slop when engage with the 'pin'.
Honestly, I would have bought an aftermarket hinge/fence etc, but down here in Aus we can't buy the MFT 'basic' anymore, so I felt obliged to use as much of the original gear as possible.

 

[Boski]

I recently got the Festool SYS CSC50 and have the Dewalt 749 table saw, and it makes life so much easier and quicker.

A table saw is so much easier and more accurate to use. I don't have much space but just put it at the front of my house with rollers if needed for larger pieces.

 

[lshj]

I recently got the Festool SYS CSC50 and have the Dewalt 749 table saw, and it makes life so much easier and quicker.

A table saw is so much easier and more accurate to use. I don't have much space but just put it at the front of my house with rollers if needed for larger pieces.

I also got the Festool SYS CSC 50 recently.  It's so compact that takes very little space. I think it's a game changer for people who have limited space and for people who need tools at the site.  Unless you need to rip board wider than 11 inches, I see no reason to choose MFT than SYS 50 table saw.

 

[mino]

..
I also got the Festool SYS CSC 50 recently.  It's so compact that takes very little space. I think it's a game changer for people who have limited space and for people who need tools at the site.  Unless you need to rip board wider than 11 inches, I see no reason to choose MFT than SYS 50 table saw.

Bold emphasized.
I will add that using a CSC 50 to rip full sheets is (as well) the wrong use of the tool. The same way pretending a tracksaw is the optimal/suitable tool for thin rips.

Tracksaw is "tool to material". It is optimal for big items while it *can* still do small items, with some compromises.
=> With the proper technique and some (major) accessories, one can absolutely use a TS 55 to make very thin rips from small stock. Is it optimal? Nope! Possible? Absolutely!

Tablesaw**) is "material to tool". It is optimal for small items, while it *can* still do big items, with some compromises.
=> With the proper technique and some (major) accessories, one can absolutely use a CSC 50 to rip full sheets. Is it optimal? Nope! Possible? Absolutely!

Now, on topic: *)
-------------------
To those trying to use a tracksaw for accurate cuts, be they square or just plain straight parallel cuts. My advise is to
- get (or make) a good precision square that can be relied on for reference, someting within