OF 1400 router and Leigh D4R Jig

[Dave Ronyak]

Just about the time I was ready and able to buy a table and router, Hitachi had discontinued M12V router.  As a result of that and Festool's experts recommendation not to try mounting my OF 1400 in a table, I eventually bought a PC 7518, which is overkill for the limited use I will give it.  It baffles me why any company would entirely replace a product that has been well accepted and relatively free of major problems.  And why change how it mounts to a router table unless there was a major problem with the old model?  What does the M12V2 offer besides a gawdy decor?

Dave R.

 

[BarryL]

I agree that looks like a sneaker.  Dave, I think that you came out smelling like a rose....you're PC 7518 will take some abuse...and bigger is better

 

[polarsea1]

Looks more like a Kawasaki Ninja to me. ;D

 

[tbellemare]

Dave:

I think a lot of the changes that have occured in the last several years to tool lines have been the result of corporate acquisitions and/or moving manufacturing offshore.

With the race to the bottom of the price pool, has come a race to outsource manufacturing, typically offshore or south of the border. When B&D bought DW and PC, they proceeded to "re-engineer" the power tools, even the ones that didn't need it. It appears the whole effort was to accomodate the tooling that was readily available and the processes that could be handled where they were planning to move mfg. There were some classic power tools that were extremely well loved that are no longer available and their replacements often are either inferior in quality or have some fatal design flaw, or both. A classic example is a DW palm sander that sold out the wazoo. B&D had it redesigned and outsourced, calling it "improved" in their literature. When people used the new "improved" version, the exhaust from the sander would burn their wrist. You won't find ANY B&D products at Tool Home. Though I can get them, it is embarassing to be associated with that company.

A big conglomerate bought a revered soldering iron mfr, known for quality industrial soldering guns with copper secondaries (where the tips meet the gun). When they moved the mfg to Mexico, they went to all aluminum secondaries, (with set screws), throughout their products. Aluminum oxide is an insulator. Soldering guns require electricity to the tip. They didn't even change their documentation or warn anyone of the change...

I can go on and on...

In another thread on the FOG, it was (sort of) suggested that Festool follow suit. I hope that doesn't happen.

Tom

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Right on, Tom.  There is no substitute for quality!

Dave R.

 

[Notorious T.O.D.]

Often the re-design is done to reduce the number of components or to make the assembly process easier for les.s skilled or less educated workers to assemble.
I have the M12V's father the M12 which is single speed only. When I started building interior/exterior doors it was the only router I could find and afford that would plunge more than 3 inches to cut the mortises for the loose mortise and tenon joints.  The plunge system seemed to wear very fast under those conditions and I was constantly taking it apart to clean the plunge mechanism.

My buddy helped me out with a project and as part of thanking him I bought him the then brand new M12V.  He is still using it in his router table I think...
The rest of my thanks to him was I built his front entry for him when he built his house a couple years later. All he had to do is buy the wood and glass, then help me install it into the house...

Best,
Todd

 

[mark90]

what

 

[fraserbluff]

Just a little more information to give some idea of the lack of manufacturing tolerance that even Festool get up to. The Festool adapter Part (463566) for the Porter Cable style guide bush is machined internally to a diameter of 35.2mm (presumably being close enough to 35mm which is close enough to 1 3/8" though not really.) This is to accomodate the guidebush that has a nominal outside diam of 1 3/8" (34.925mm). Now as a rule and for easy insertion either the Festool adapter should be slightly larger or the bush slightly smaller, slightly being the operative word. To achieve this the two manufacturers would, I assume talk to one another, so that the clearance for the two items is sufficient for easy fit but not too large to end up with a sloppy fit or too tight with an interference fit.

That is too simple. Festool have added 0.275mm (0.011") and the manufacturer of the bush have machined an extra 0.005" from the 1 3/8" diam to give a sloppy fit.

Just for fun I suppose!

Getting back to the first post, I intend to machine the guide bush tomorrow, off centre by 0.15mm, after building it up with silver solder. That will fix the concentricity problems. I will do the same with the outer boss of the guide bush so that it fits snuggly into  the oversize  Festool Adapter.

Donald (on the Rock)

 

[Notorious T.O.D.]

Donald.

Looking at this type of product I would be very surprised if the Festool designers ever talked to the PC folks about the adapter to bushing interface.
The PC bushings have probably not changed design in years if ever and they or some subcontractor just crank them out. Also there are a couple other manufacturers making the PC style guide bushings today.  Who knows how these compare dimentionally to the PC and to each other, but I will bet that they don't match exactly either.  I think these type of router plate to template guide issues were the driving factor in leigh investing the time and money to create their own plates and guide busings.

Perhaps Festool will come up with a revised and better system that can be retro-fit to the 1400.  I personally don't care for the 1400s current system that much as it is. I find it easy to get the template jambed if each side is not put in place or removed at exactly the same time from the clips.  I also find
I could use a third hand to push the two clips and pull the template out of the router base.  Just my thoughts as a shot term owner of a 1400 and 1010 too. Right now the 1010 would be my choice for template work and perhaps the 700 in the future when I get one of those.

We also have to keep in mind what a master tool and die maker once told me about 20 years ago too, " Keep in mind this is WOOD working and not metal machining and the tolerances with wood will never be what one would expect and need from metal."

Best,
Todd

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Fraser,

The PC adapter bushing supplied with my OF 1400 (about 3 years ago) and the Whiteside inlay kit brass bushing are an interference fit.  There is zero slop.  It is difficult to insert the Whitside bushing.  I had to file down the external threads of the Whiteside bushing slightly to facilitate installation.  I also bought a brass PC bushing kit from Woodcraft.  Those bushings do have a slight amount of radial play.

Todd,

I agree with the occasional need for a third hand when trying to remove the snap-in bushings from my OF 1400, which I had to frequently do when routing the shelves for my entertainment center project.  But even so, the Festool system enabled me to more quickly switch out bushings and thus work more quickly than if I had to change PC style bushings for each step of my process.

Hopefully, Festool will (or already has) revisit its manufacturing process to improve centricity of the mounting ring in the base of the OF 1400.  They just need to check concentricity before they mount the aluminum ring in the base of the the OF 1400 and drill / install the dowel pins.  Perhaps they have been joining the aluminum ring to the base before installing the base on the plunge rods, thus enabling errors in alignment to cumulate.

Dave R.

 

[fraserbluff]

Donald.

I could use a third hand to push the two clips and pull the template out of the router base.  Just my thoughts as a shot term owner of a 1400 and 1010 too. Right now the 1010 would be my choice for template work and perhaps the 700 in the future when I get one of those.

We also have to keep in mind what a master tool and die maker once told me about 20 years ago too, " Keep in mind this is WOOD working and not metal machining and the tolerances with wood will never be what one would expect and need from metal."

Best,
Todd

Todd
Two things
I discovered that as you get older, some appendages on the body become obsolete, and was offered the option of having a third hand attached to the obsolete appendage, as I discovered it would be of more use to me. Thus changing out the bush adapter is now easy, with the third hand. (No offence meant!)

In terms of the tolerances of the wood work, I agree. It is not the tolerances of the wood work that is my problem but those of the tools. The input of the hand and the eye gives rise to more than enough "tolerance of fit". For a tool that is promoted as a precision tool and "a cut" above the rest, it is source of disappointment.

Cheers

Donald (On the Rock)

 

[justinmcf]

hi fraserbluff, i have recently purchased the OF 1010 and the OF 1400. i have owned the OF 2000 router for 8 years.

i also purchased the leigh FMT and leigh D4R last year. i have been following your post for a while now and i am now in the same position as you.

i feel very dissappointed that the leigh guide bush (brass i think) fits very tightly in the recently acquired festool guide bush adaptor 493566 (your posts quote 463566, close but no cigar mate!).

i just purchased the festool adaptor today and i will have to think long and hard for a solution. i hope holding the router in the same position every time will solve this problem, i will know tomorrow.

i have found through trial and error that i can move the guide bush adaptor on the OF 1010 and the OF 2000 very slightly and then screw it tight to get it perfectly centered.

but the "clip on" guide bush adaptor for the OF 1400 is a PITA. there is no give what so ever.

i can only hope that festool read this forum, and others, and maybe in the future we can have a normal system of 3 screws to attach the guide bush adaptors/ copy rings .

it seems such a small thing, but it is crucial to get the dovetail and spiral bits central to the guide bush.

my plan was to keep OF 2000 for general carpentry every day and to keep my shiney new OF 1400 for leigh jigs, but this problem is a deal breaker, i will now use OF 2000 for the leigh jigs and OF 1400 has been demoted to the trailer for general carpentry. not happy jan.

all because of a stupid little adaptor which "clips on" to the router as opposed to a screw on version!

 

[nickao]

A simple inexpensive DeWalt 618 would not give you those problems and the dust collection is great too. Maybe spend a hundred on a dedicated router for the Leigh jig. My OF 1400 does a lot more general tasks and seems like way to nice of a router to dedicate for a dovetail jig only, it is for me.

I use the DeWalt 618 on at least 5 different dedicated jigs and they cost what one OF 1400 cost.  On the dovetail jig you are going to notice no noticeable improvement  with OF 1400 over a DW 618 even if you do get the Festool to work. But on general plunge routing the OF 1400 is much better than the DW 618.

 

[justinmcf]

thanks nickao, i will be getting a price on a dewalt 618 today.

 

[nickao]

I got the plunge model 618 used or twice once off ebay for 99.00 including shipping. Works great and I see them on ebay all the time. Just remember it is no Festool as far as the plunge mechanism, but then again you probably do not even need a plunge base for the jig anyway.

 

[wnagle]

I aggree with Nick on the Dewalt.  I also have the OF 1400... It works well on the Leigh FMT.  But on my Leigh D4R, making dovetails,  I use a pair of dewalt 618 fixed base routers.  One with a straight bit and one with the dovetail bit.  They center well and are a low center of gravity.

 

[Paulz]

Hi all. Lots of carefull observations on this topic. Just to add my observations to the mix. I used the OF1400 WITH THE D4 and had poor performance on the fit of the dovetails...gaposis! Used the 493566 adapter ring and woodcraft guide rings. Yes thefitof the guide rings to the 493566 adapter was TIGHT!...but with careful fitting it went in well.
The concentricity on the D4 is factored into the operation of the jig as per Leigh's manual. The eccentric bushing can be used to tighten joints up by rotating the bushing if everything else is fixed solidly. I use the round bushings. As long as you do not use different tools for the different cutting operations and do not move the ring there should not be problems with concentricity...BUT...
THE 493566 adapter has play radially and that results in what looks like 1/64th of an inch play linearly.... and that means depending on how much one pushes against the fingers the guide bushing will move relative to the axis of the bit. A bit of a shift when pushing on the fingers to the right and a bit when pushing on the other side of the finger and we have gaps. Using a centering cone was useless as the centering was lost the minute there was pressure of the bushing on the finger. Eccentric bushing are equally useless given the variable location of the adapter 493566 ring.

Switched to a fixed base PCand got better results after adjusting the centering with a cone jig but it really bugs me that such a well engineered device has such a poor design for a major router application. I get it that the tolerance is adequate for most carpentry but a leigh jig is directed at fine limited volume production work. If I were a router product manager i would want to excel in that segment.
To add to the issue it would not be trivial  on the OF 1400 to design a guide bushing that was adjustable and stayed put! The snap ring design has to have some slop or you would not be able to get the ring out easily. As it is you need three hands unless there is a trick to it, but if it were dead on with no play i suspect it would not be marketable.
There is plenty of room to add in a screwed in guide ring adapter but that renders the snap in festure a bit redundant and that probably would drive the marketing peeps nuts. At this point given the error stack-ups and marketing issues, fixed but adjustable comes at the trade-off of the snap in...fundamentally it appears. So you would have to redesign and that may be in the works or not but it will not help in time for my current project.
I will be getting a fixed base newer gen PC with about 2HP and soft start. Guide bushing issues are solved along with easy centering.Dust is well taken care of by the Leigh VRS (?). I really appreciate my Festool products but supporting the Leigh jig applications was probably not high on the must have marketing requirements. Given the beautiful engineering on these Festool products if the design team would have been asked to do the leigh jig app perfectly Festool would have done it.

If you come up with different conclusions or figure out how to get it done give us all a shout out!!!

 

[Paulz]

hi all....check out observations on this issue in another thread on the OF 1400 problems. Others have exactly the same observations and that would drive the Leigh jig gap problem....namely that the 493566 guide bushing adapter has too much play and that it shifts when pushed against a template. For most applications 1/32-164th of an inch is no problem but it is a real issue on a Leigh jig.
best regards, Paul

 

[grbmds]

I'm confused by the problem.

First, if the OP is dissatisfied with the OF1400 for use on the Leigh jig return it (did not fight my way through all the posts to know if it is older than 30 days so sorry if that isn't an option).

Second, if it is older than 30 days send it to Festool for service under warranty if it isn't working correctly (again sorry if for some reason this isn't an option and has been discussed; too many posts to read). All are right that it's too expensive not to be working properly.

Third, I have the OF1400 and find it is the best router I've owned; accurate, dust free, and easy to use. There are other great ones out there also and better suited to this task.

Fourth, Festool has never advertised that they make their tools for use with the Leigh jigs or, for that matter, with other tools or jigs. In fact, just the opposite. They promote a system of tools which work together and not necessarily with other tools or jigs so maybe the OF1400 isn't the right router for this job. It is a little big for a dovetail jig.

Fifth, there is no need to spend the money on an OF1400 when almost any other fixed base or plunge router from Dewalt, PC, Bosch, or Makita would work as well (better according to this thread). One of the OF1400 features is dust collection and I believe the Leigh jigs have a dust shroud. The shroud on my PC jig works great. I would never use my OF1400 on that jig. No need.

Sixth, the OF1400 excels at a lot of tasks, including template routing and I have never noticed any inaccuracies. I'm picky and a perfectionist. So, again, if there are any, it probably needs service.

Last of all, the OF 1400 (actually all Festool routers I believe) have etched marks on all sides of the base which indicate the center of the bit and my experience has shown this feature actually works (at least on my router). That is the result of precision milling and attention to accuracy.

Sorry the OP isn't satisfied with the router. Sorry I've "ranted" a bit. These types of problems are exactly what the warranties are for. No one should have to spend the kind of money Festools cost and not get a tool that works as it should.  I have only returned one tool out of about 15 ( lost count) within the 30 days for a problem (other then the TS55 for recall)

 

[nickao]

Guys look a the dates.

This thread was brought back to life from 2009? I am sure he bought a DeWalt router long ago and went on with his life.