OF1010 rumor

[Crazyraceguy]

I guess it's the "overboard" thinking in me, but I really don't see the problem of owning both OF1400 and OF1010 to get the features discussed? I never really expect any tool to be everything to me, even if it is capable of it. Case in point, my recent post about the MFK700. The more versatile or adjustable something is, the more tinkering/adjusting you have to do to work with it. Case in point #2, ShopSmith machines. They can do pretty much everything, but they are a huge pain at the same time. If you are in a tiny shop and don't care at all about time? maybe, But that is not me at all.
Do you really need the more powerful/bigger unit to have the more precise bushing connection?
I have used my OF1400 to cut the deeper pockets of some fairly big SOSS hinges and it has not been an issue at all. The dust collection is so much better than they way I did it before, which was the Dewalt with the extraction through one of the plunge mechanism pillars.
If I wanted to do some smaller inlay type work, I probably would use the OF1010, because it is more solid, adjustable and lighter. I don't really like messing with the screws on the base plate, so I avoid it if I can. The snap-style of the OF1400 is so much simpler that you will actually use it, especially with the chip collection cup. I rarely use it with the OF1010, just for that reason. Why oh why do they use flat-blade screws for the bushings? Although I am not a fan of Torx screws either, they are better than flat.
I like the idea of the new round dust port. The oval ones on the OF1010 and RAS115 are more difficult than they need to be.
The light thing doesn't really concern me. I mostly use mine with the dust port that surrounds the bit. With that in place, you have absolutely no way of viewing the bit at all, so a light would do nothing.
I do very little where I care to see the bit at all.
I like the 8mm option, I just wish it had better support in the US. It's possible, but certainly not simple or ordinary. IMHO, metric is just better anyway. I would rather that Festool not bother to change things. It just adds to the confusion of mixing the measurements. The DF500 is still 100% metric. I really don't see them producing cutters/tennons to go along with converting all of the setting scales. So why switch it on the other machines?

Isn't 1/2" and 1/4" just a US thing? It's all 6, 8 or 12mm here. Dunno who actually uses the 6mm without adapter to 8mm, but ok.

I didn't realize that was the way over there? In the US an OF1010 comes with 1/4" and 8mm collets, so I assumed you got 6mm and 8mm with yours?
The OF1400 comes with 3 collets here 1/4", 8mm, and 1/2", so I would have thought that you got 6mm, 8mm, and 12mm?
Adapters are available here, but they are definitely not the standard. I have a couple that adapt 3/8" to 1/2" and 1/8" to 1/4", but they are more of the emergency/un-expected type uses.

Milwaukee has always offered 3/8" collets as an option for their routers, that goes back at least 25+ years. It was always looked upon as an oddball item but I've noticed that recently Whiteside, Vortex & Amana are now offering a larger selection of 3/8" router bits. I don't know the reasoning behind it, it could be because of the proliferation of small CNC table top routers?

They may have been around, but there wasn't any demand or supply for them.
I wasn't aware of those brands offering more. I'll have to look into that, since I have used Whiteside and Amana for years. The CNC thing may be driving it, but don't limit it to the table-top units. The Big 5' x12' production machines we use do a lot of their cutting with 3/8" compression bit. These are solid carbide though, not steel shank. The smaller cuts, like back dados or shelf pin holes are 1/4" and the big ones, like spoil board planers are 1/2".

Even though the UK has been fully metric for decades, we still buy router bits which have 1/4” or 1/2” shanks - the manufacturers refer to them as 6.35mm or 12.7mm. We also buy 12.7mm drill bits, we still measure fuel economy in miles per gallon, we buy pints of beer,  and weigh ourselves using stones and pounds....

I have been confused by this for years. It always seemed like this would happen in the US, if we ever made the switch. This is what makes conversion so hard. Comparing one's understanding rather than just thinking directly in the new measurements makes it more "thinking" than just knowing.
We have an odd similarity here though. For some reason, un-known to me, architects do their drawings in a combination of feet and inches, yet all of our shop drawings are converted to be in inches only. To them 14" would be 1' 2", which seems silly to me? We all know that you would say 1400mm, or 1.4m not 1m 400mm, the mix seems odd.
Don't you buy fuel by the liter though? I did know the MPG thing, but mostly from Top Gear on TV.
Also, isn't what you guys call a pint different than us too? Here a pint is 16 fluid ounces and I have heard that your pint is more like 20 ounces the way we measure it?

 

[DeformedTree]

I agree the lack of light is just shocking. For those of us without a OF1010, changes like the dust port are indifferent, maybe positive, as nothing is changing, but have a a round port is easier than oval.

I think the router was more modified than what they did to the saws, but still, a mild update.  I suspect Festool is trying to bridge to a much bigger re-design.  They probably decided they needed some updates, but major re-do may be a bit off from now. If you assume in a few years, almost all tools will be battery powered, then you want/need to plan for that. If you are not ready as a company for that, then you have to keep your current product going till you are ready.

A few years from now a real replacement for the OF1010 might be battery only, it will be a major change. Expect the same for the TS55 and HK, they may just go away. 

Festool may not have tried hard because when it comes to the routers, if a person is serious on dust collection, what other options do they have?  If you can only have  a light, or good dust collection, which are you going to pick.

On metric history, at least in the US you have weak efforts by government who caved soon as groups complained that they would have to shift, worse some area were converted, like government funded construction, so it was done, but groups complained.  The government just had to have some spine and make it clear it is how it is. On the consumer side, a lot of folks would shift if simply things were only presented in metric, they would shift over. When companies do as festool did, that is what causes the issues to continue.  They clearly had been doing a great job of converting folks to metric.  If people have an out, they won't change. But more frustrating if the metric paths are not available to those who want them, it's even more frustrating.  In the US, the final push to metric would be simple as so much all ready is metric even if people don't realize it.

For router bits, bit companies just need to offer them. My experience is their online catalogs are just horribly frustrating, as they don't want to give folks a simple option to select 8mm or 12mm shank and just see what they have. Router bit places have absolutely terrible layouts for finding stuff. My preference is to only ever buy metric bits, even if I have to get different collets for routers.  Inch based stuff won't be around forever, plus the more that buy metric stuff, the sooner metric shift happens. If they make the stuff for the rest of the world, just sell it in the whole world.

Instead of shipping with inch collets, festool could ship with handy guides to retailers who have a catalog of metric bits.

 

[DeformedTree]

We have an odd similarity here though. For some reason, un-known to me, architects do their drawings in a combination of feet and inches, yet all of our shop drawings are converted to be in inches only. To them 14" would be 1' 2", which seems silly to me? We all know that you would say 1400mm, or 1.4m not 1m 400mm, the mix seems odd.

Right, architects need to learn how to make drawings.  As  16' 7-1/8"  is no way to dimension something.  The computer age should have forced them to do everything inch, maybe decimal in.  199.125" would be so much easier.  The good news is supplies for stuff like bath fixtures, and windows also give metric dimensions.  I use those so I don't loose my mind.  Engineering world went to decimal inch only long ago.  I think architects just don't know how stuff is made.  You would think they would be around job sites enough to know you don't work in feet.  You cut the stud to 91.5 or 91-1/2  not 8' 7-1/2". 

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[quote author=Crazyraceguy]

I have been confused by this for years. It always seemed like this would happen in the US, if we ever made the switch. This is what makes conversion so hard. Comparing one's understanding rather than just thinking directly in the new measurements makes it more "thinking" than just knowing.
We have an odd similarity here though. For some reason, un-known to me, architects do their drawings in a combination of feet and inches, yet all of our shop drawings are converted to be in inches only. To them 14" would be 1' 2", which seems silly to me? We all know that you would say 1400mm, or 1.4m not 1m 400mm, the mix seems odd.
Don't you buy fuel by the liter though? I did know the MPG thing, but mostly from Top Gear on TV.
Also, isn't what you guys call a pint different than us too? Here a pint is 16 fluid ounces and I have heard that your pint is more like 20 ounces the way we measure it?
[/quote]

You're right. I'm pretty sure that the main reason why so many US woodworkers use Imperial is quite simply the fact that they've always known it, they understand it, and that's what they learned how to use right from the start - these units are what they automatically think in. I personally think metric is way simpler and potentially more accurate (unless you're measuring in 64ths), but hey - that's what I know and that's what I'm used to, and I'm certainly not going to get all evangelical about it. Forcing any kind of change on someone is a little like suddenly telling a US or UK citizen that they have to forget their mother tongue and start speaking Russian.

We say '1400mm' because that's not the same as 1399mm or 1401mm, and for exactly the same reason as you guys say '50 inches' instead of 'one yard, one foot and two inches' - just like you said. But for rough estimating, the bigger units still have their place - you'll look at a piece of wood, and think to yourself 'That's about a yard long'. I look at the same piece and think 'That's about a metre long'. We're exactly the same - just different  [blink]

Our gas stations have dials which display and pump fuel in litres, but if you ask 95% of UK drivers how many kilometres per litre their car does, they won't have a clue. 35 miles per gallon is still what everyone here understands and relates to. It's just one of the metric aspects which has never caught on. But then - ask the same driver how big his fuel tank is and he'll say '75 litres'. It's slightly mad - but folks understand it and relate to it.

Same goes for body weight. Hardly anyone here knows how many kilograms they weigh (or pounds, for that matter). Ask a 170-pound/77-kilogram guy in the street how much he weighs, and your answer will be '12 stone 2 pounds' most of the time - with the possible exception of the younger generation who have been taught in school to weigh themselves in kilograms.

And yes - the UK Imperial pint is 20 fluid ounces, the US liquid pint is 16. That's why we have more fun than you guys  [big grin]

Finally - here's a product list of straight-flute cutters from Trend - the UK's main manufacturer of cutters. Take a look down the list, and you'll find shanks of 1/2", 1/4", 3/8", 8mm and 12mm......................
https://www.trend-uk.com/products/r...-router-cutters/straight-flute-router-cutters

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Right, architects need to learn how to make drawings.  As  16' 7-1/8"  is no way to dimension something.  The computer age should have forced them to do everything inch, maybe decimal in.  199.125" would be so much easier.  The good news is supplies for stuff like bath fixtures, and windows also give metric dimensions.  I use those so I don't loose my mind.  Engineering world went to decimal inch only long ago.  I think architects just don't know how stuff is made.  You would think they would be around job sites enough to know you don't work in feet.  You cut the stud to 91.5 or 91-1/2  not 8' 7-1/2".

Some of that foolishness is still out there in the big box retailers though. I would love to know how many 3-0 doors get returned to the store because the customer thought they were getting 30", not 3' and 0" which turns out to be 36"?

Yes, you are right. In rough measurements (in conversation) we would say that something was 12 and a half feet, because the average person is far more familiar. Sure they could figure it out, if you said it in inches only, if they had too, but it's not necessary.

In the shop, when making cut lists for the sawyer (if I'm not going to cut it myself) we have decided on a "code" of 97" for just cutting full length strips from sheet goods. If you actually write 96", he will cross cut it to that.

The MPG thing is just funny though. You buy it by the liter, your odometer shows kilometers, the math is simple and it's just a relative comparison number anyway? KPL? So every vehicle would compare the same. Seems like a lot of converting for nothing.

There was talk about switching to metric back when I was in elementary school (early 70s) but it never took hold. If the government just did it, people would gripe for a while, convert in their heads for a while and get over it. Especially once they realized that base 10 is easier. Then after a generation of kids not learning one and having to convert, it would get better. Eventually it would be fine, fractions would be less of a thing.
Far more things are already done in metric standards than people realize, but the thinking is just not there. I would say that the most common usage (awareness) is with soda bottles. Everyone knows what a 2 liter bottle is, but pay little attention to the fact that most things that used to come in quarts are now 750ml. Even less of those would equate that to 3/4 of a liter.

 

[squall_line]

The MPG thing is just funny though. You buy it by the liter, your odometer shows kilometers, the math is simple and it's just a relative comparison number anyway? KPL? So every vehicle would compare the same. Seems like a lot of converting for nothing.

Even better, I usually see metric fuel efficiency reported as consumption, a la Liters per 100 km.  The lower the number the better.  [blink]

 

[woodbutcherbower]

[quote author=Crazyraceguy]

The MPG thing is just funny though. You buy it by the liter, your odometer shows kilometers, the math is simple and it's just a relative comparison number anyway? KPL? So every vehicle would compare the same. Seems like a lot of converting for nothing.

Far more things are already done in metric standards than people realize, but the thinking is just not there. I would say that the most common usage (awareness) is with soda bottles. Everyone knows what a 2 liter bottle is, but pay little attention to the fact that most things that used to come in quarts are now 750ml. Even less of those would equate that to 3/4 of a liter.
[/quote]

On the KPL/MPG thing - not at all, we don't have to convert anything. Since most all of our cars/vans/trucks now have digital/electronic odometers, you can go into the settings/options screen and choose between imperial or metric. Mine is set at MPG, I'm guessing that a vast proportion of my countrymen have the same thing dialled (dialed) in on their settings. Our analogue (analog) dials still read MPH, with KM/H printed on there in smaller red numbers on the same dial. Every road's speed limit sign across the whole of the UK is displayed in MPH, and the UK Government's published speed limits are also in MPH. The metric odometer/speed displays are 100% normal once you cross the English Channel into Europe - a continent which the UK stupidly declined to be a continuing part of.

Drinks bottles = 100%, especially the 2-litre Diet Coke bottle. The most obvious example is that of your country's stellar wines from the Napa Valley. The contents of every bottle?

750ml. Just like you said.

Incidentally - what happened to the OP and his OF1010 rumour (rumor) ?????

 

[DeformedTree]

for the UK they are just slapping US instrument clusters in there, the dual units are the same as what we have. Of course they install them on the wrong side in the UK.  Cars for decades have been metric ready when it comes to the gauges. Now with digital dashes, it's just a press of a button.  The odometer might be the biggest issue all around, but that's very minor.

If the US grew up and went all in tomorrow, the majority of the population wouldn't have an issue at all. If your under 50ish, you were taught metric in school, and everyone is to this day.  It's just some old people who would complain, but they are now the minority. The bulk of folks, would just adjust and move on.

The conversion is still happening, all be it slow. Even in building trades, global realities catch up and things slowly get changed over.  Lots of people certainly know the liquid stuff.  A few years ago the beverage industry was allowed to remove dual dimensioning and just list SI values only, no more oz/etc. from cans and such.  The reality is supporting inch stuff cost business money. When businesses talk to political on that stuff, things can happen.  The more you have people running companies that grew up metric/taught metric, the more those who hold out claiming metric is expensive go away/die. The old excuses just don't hold over time, like the road sign myth on cost. Which forgets signs are regularly replaced, and we had put up metric signs and then took them back down.  Or the "machinery" myth about them being in inches, when any real machinery bought in the last few decades used by any large scale manufacture is metric or dual and is a matter of pressing a button.

So yes, the new OF1010 should have got a light.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

At almost 60, I wouldn't complain at all about the switch, but that might be because of my job, and maybe some Festool exposure. I would have to replace some scales on tools and a few measuring tapes, but that's about it. One of the guys I work with used to work in a shop that was all metric and that was many years ago.

Soda cans are still 16 oz and if they switched to some even-simple-comparable number in ml, it might cause issues with dispensing machines?

But even in the countries that are all metric, don't they have sheet goods in 1220 x2440? That is kind of the same as the US going to 750ml bottles in reverse, because that is 4' x 8'. Even the Baltic or Russian Birch sizes are 5' x 5'? even though that is purely a European product and size.
Does anyone know how/why they settled on that size?

 

[mino]

But even in the countries that are all metric, don't they have sheet goods in 1220 x2440? That is kind of the same as the US going to 750ml bottles in reverse, because that is 4' x 8'. Even the Baltic or Russian Birch sizes are 5' x 5'? even though that is purely a European product and size.
Does anyone know how/why they settled on that size?

Not sure how the sizes came but here we go with CZ standards /DE being the same/:

These are the advertised sizes, usually the stuff is a few millimeters bigger to account for edge damage.

Baltic birch: 1525 x 1525 (I am always a HUH when see that size, probably from the birch being naturally smaller trees, so getting 2500 mm long pieces would be an issue)
"Normal" sheets: 2500 x 1250
"Chipboard format": 2800 x 2070 (this is popular flats here are usually 2600-2800 mm for a couple decades, so 2800 allows floor-ceiling in 90%+ housing scenarios)
"Big sheet" stuff: 3000 x 1500 (not generally available, but common in the trades)

Specialty stuff can come in all kinds of sizes, but the above are the common standards.

From other turf, metal bars and pipes etc. are usually 6000 which is very non-inch size. Everything else is either 3m, 4m, 5m from the wood stuff and 1m or 2m from the metal stuff. So I guess similar to US - makers align to "round" values.

 

[DeformedTree]

5x5 BB isn't 5x5 it's just extremely close, and thus like anything else, places call it that, same as them falsely listing it as 1/2" or 3/4" thick.

3m is common for stuff here.  Pipe comes in 10ft.  Not sure how exact it is to either dimension.

 

[semenza]

Incidentally - what happened to the OP and his OF1010 rumour (rumor) ?????

Probably hoping for more discussion / info on the router rather than the metric system vs. all other measurement systems.  :

  Then again maybe it is just a rumour?  [huh]

Seth

 

[woodbutcherbower]

Almost everything made from wood in the UK is bought in direct metric conversions from older imperial standards. Sheet goods are 2400 x 1200 (8’ x 4’). Doors come in a bunch of standard sizes - 1981 x 762 (6’6” x 2’6”), 1981 x 838 (6’6” x 2’9”) and so on.

Almost all timber/ lumber is supplied in a range of standard lengths, from 2400 (8’) to 5400 (18’).

OF1010 - I bought one and just couldn’t get on with it. Main reason was that the parallel fence sits at 90 degrees to the handle - so when routing hinge rebates on in-situ door frames using the fence to set the rear rebate edge, you can’t get the router anywhere near the frame head before the handle, extractor hose and power cord all hit it. If you reverse the fence and rout from the other edge of the frame, everything just hits the floor instead. An aspect of use which I guess doesn’t apply to 99% of 1010 users out there. It’s a shame as I loved everything else about it - especially the extraction which was stunningly good. I bought a conventional 2-handled Makita RP1100 instead, and it’s a super little machine.

You see? Back on topic  [smile]

 

[AlexThePalex]

I didn't like the OF1010 much either. I had bought a used one in a lot, and compared it to my old DeWalt DW613 router, and I didn't see any benefit in keeping the 1010. The long handle didn't feel very comfortable to me, I prefer the control I get with the plain old two knobs on the side of my DW better.

Funny thing, the 5 year old 1010 had very rusty columns, my 24 year old DW still doesn't have a spec on it.

Sold the OF1010 for €275, while I could have gotten maybe 50 for the DW.

Sheet goods are in converted imperial measurements too here, that's why we have to calculate with dumb sizes like 2440 x 1220 mm.

 

[Cheese]

Why oh why do they use flat-blade screws for the bushings? Although I am not a fan of Torx screws either, they are better than flat.

I believe it's to reduce the amount of torque that can be applied to the screws. There have been issues with the tapped holes in the router base stripping out and Helicoils needing to be installed.

Similar to slotted screws being used in the rail joiners, less torque to prevent denting of the rails.

 

[Packard]

Why oh why do they use flat-blade screws for the bushings? Although I am not a fan of Torx screws either, they are better than flat.

I believe it's to reduce the amount of torque that can be applied to the screws. There have been issues with the tapped holes in the router base stripping out and Helicoils needing to be installed.

Similar to slotted screws being used in the rail joiners, less torque to prevent denting of the rails.

I would have guessed that it was done to eliminate the use of screw guns.  You don't see many people using screw guns on slotted heads.

I see that the 1010's predecessor was discontinued too.  This might mean an improved version is on its way.
https://wood.tools4.co.za/product/router-of-1010-ebq-plus-za/

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Yeah mino, The sheet goods sizes here are actually oversized too, usually 1" each way.
49 x 97
61 x 97

49 x 145
61 x 145
Plus we can get sheets intended for counter tops that are 25 x 145
Particle board, Melamine, MDF etc are all like that, except for Plywood? I don't really know why though?

I have always wondered about the 5 x 5 sheets though? I just assumed that there was some reason, like maybe something as simple as the machines it is made on? or the application it was intended to be used for?

 

[Coen]

Sheet goods are in converted imperial measurements too here, that's why we have to calculate with dumb sizes like 2440 x 1220 mm.

Not everything. I can't think of what the 400x2000 gypsum boards are supposed to be in imperial?

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I would have guessed that it was done to eliminate the use of screw guns.  You don't see many people using screw guns on slotted heads.

I see that the 1010's predecessor was discontinued too.  This might mean an improved version is on its way.
https://wood.tools4.co.za/product/router-of-1010-ebq-plus-za/

That makes sense, to some degree anyway. That is just not a thing I would use a powered driver for in the first place though. I have a dedicated hand driver in the systainer for it, something Festool maybe should have done? T-10 IIRC? But then I have to get out the regular slotted driver too. They usually provide the tools needed to adjust things, hex keys, collet wrenches, etc

 

[jcrowe1950]

3/8" bits are really only available as solid carbide spiral or compression profiles, usually CNC applications. Most hand held routers need an adapter bushing to use them. I don't recall ever seeing a steel shank/brazed carbide 3/8" shank bit?

Milwaukee has always offered 3/8" collets as an option for their routers, that goes back at least 25+ years. It was always looked upon as an oddball item but I've noticed that recently Whiteside, Vortex & Amana are now offering a larger selection of 3/8" router bits. I don't know the reasoning behind it, it could be because of the proliferation of small CNC table top routers?

Hi Cheese, et al,

    I have 3/8" collets for both my Bosch 1617 and my Festool 1400.  Like somebody else mentioned, it's useful for 3/8" solid carbide bits, which in my case are ideal for creating mortises in 1" to 1 1/4" stock. FWIW, that's one application that sold me on the OF 1400.....it's head and shoulders above the Bosch for that purpose.