OF2200 router power issue?

[Distinctive Interiors]

That all seems to be useful information Rick, but how would we know whether the Generators we are using are Solid State or Electromechanical?

Is it all down to the age of the generator?

Will it state what type it is on the specification plate on the machine?

Are the symptoms Taylor stated likely to appear worse due to the fact that he is running 110v rather than 240v?

I dont want to hi-jack this thread Taylor, just interested to know.

Thanks, Tim.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

That all seems to be useful information Rick, but how would we know whether the Generators we are using are Solid State or Electromechanical?

If the engine speeds up and slows down depending on how much load is on it, then it is solidstate. For an electromechanical generator, you will hear the engine change load, but the rpm will remain relatively constant. Yeah I know. That may be fine for identifying what you already have, but it doesn't do you any good while you're standing in a store trying to pick one out.

Will it state what type it is on the specification plate on the machine?

I can't tell you that because it will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. I can't even tell you what trigger words to look for because that is all a matter of marketing games. By all rights, only an electromechanical generator should be called "true sinusoidal", but unfortunately, quite a few manufacturers market their solidstate generators using this term.

Are the symptoms Taylor stated likely to appear worse due to the fact that he is running 110v rather than 240v?

No. The method of creating the simulated sine wave is the same. The only difference between the two is that for the same amount of power, the lower voltage machine will have to provide higher amperage levels.

I wish I could give you a better answer, but because so many companies deliberately gray the line, it makes it more difficult. If a unit is labeled as an inverter-generator, then you know for sure it is solidstate, because that is actually the proper name for it. Also, if it is fairly tiny and compact, it is also very likely to be an inverter-generator. The electromechanical (or also called electromagnetic) are typically a little larger in physical size.

Probably the best tip would be to look in the specifications. If it lists a single run-speed, then it is going to be electromechanical.

 

[Distinctive Interiors]

Thanks Rick!

I have my Generator sitting in my workshop at the moment so I'll go and take a look at it and see what the Spec. plates say!

Tim.

 

[Distinctive Interiors]

Just taken a couple of pics of the Spec plates. I don't know if these will help!!!!!

[attachthumb=#]

[attachthumb=#]

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Gee, it's a shame you don't use that genny very often. It looks like it came right off the showroom floor.  [big grin] [big grin]

The first picture didn't tell me anything, and unless you've edited your post while I was typing (which I see you did), the second picture didn't come through. Can you repost it?

 

[Distinctive Interiors]

I think the second picture is up there now..... [smile]

Tim.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Yes, second picture is there now. Based on a couple of things on the motor nameplate, it appears that yours is an electromechanical generator. Specifically, it lists the speed at 3000 rpm, which correlates to 50 hertz for a 4 pole winding.

 

[Distinctive Interiors]

As you can tell, its not exactly new. [laughing]..........(2002), but it still runs fine after all those years and has never let me down.

I have used it consistently over the last 10 years to power my tools that are up to and possibly beyond its 2.2kw rating. When using my 2000w router and CT, the motor on the generator does labour a bit, but it only takes a few seconds to get up to speed again.

Thanks again Rick for your insight!

I hope TaylorKitchens didn't mind me hi-jacking his thread to a degree  [smile]

Tim.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

(I was typing while you were posting).
So to follow up, you should not have any problems running any electronically controlled power tool on your generator. Your generator produces a true mathematical/mechanical sine wave and will not interfere with the electronics. The only time you can run into a problem is if you load your generator to the point that the engine cannot maintain 3000 rpm, or suddenly changes when the load suddenly increases. However, this won't affect universal motors or electronic controllers. It would only affect induction motors at start-up, such as those found in tablesaws. But that would still be true for either type of generator.

 

[Distinctive Interiors]

AHA!

That would explain why the Induction motor on my Elu Flipsaw always seems to affect the generator the most!!!!!!!

It takes a good few seconds to get up to speed whilst the generator "catch's up"!!!!!

Tim.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Yup! The inrush current on an induction motor is very high at start-up. It is literally a short circuit for the first few milliseconds before the motor gets turning very fast. This creates kind of a catch-22 situation for generators. It loads the generator so much that it causes the generator to slow down, but this in turn prolongs how long it takes for the motor to get up to speed. So the two of them cause problems for each other because it takes longer than normal for the motor to get up to speed, which further loads the generator.

Once the induction motor gets spinning, then everything is fine. It is just getting the motor turning that is difficult. When you are working from mains power, this very short time of overload is not a problem. But on a generator, the engine has a harder time dealing with it. As long as your generator is able to get that (induction) motor spinning at full speed in about 2 seconds, then you are OK. If it takes much longer than that, then you would want to consider a larger generator. Prolonged start-up times are hard on the windings of both the motor and the generator.

 

[PeterK]

In my job for the last 20+ years, I have used and specified generators from personal portables to large industrials. One rule of thumb for me based upon experience is to never use a generator for loads near its design limits. I always try to size the load at a maximum of 80% of generator spec for industrial units and closer to 60% for portables. When pushed near their limits, the output frequency and voltage can be severely affected and especially with portables will tend to burn up electronics in attached devices. As always, Rick has great comments and is far more technically accurate than I. As he says, I would be looking for a larger generator with high quality regulated output. Will cost money up front but won't destroy connected equipment costing money later.

 

[Taylorkitchens]

Struggling to find info on mine :/

Here's a pic of the one I have if that helps?

 

[Taylorkitchens]

This is from the stephill generator website

My model is the 2700hm

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Struggling to find info on mine :/

This is a perfect example of why I can't give definitive answers on some of these generators, because the manufacturers are not clear about it themselves.

What is notably absent from all of the specification sheets I searched for is the engine rpm. That leads me to believe that this is an inverter-generator. The other clue to that is because they reference the lower sound levels. These two things leave me fairly confident that it is an inverter-generator (aka solidstate).

Because this is a generator that you already posses, then the quickest way to find out is to see how the engine rpm changes with load. Start it up and plug in a really tiny load like a small lightbulb (not a big worklight). Then plug in a big load like a large worklight or router. If you notice the engine changing rpm from the small load to the big load, then it is an inverter-generator.

Oh, I should have seen this sooner! Because the alternator is listed as being "brushless" that means it cannot have a field winding that controls the voltage output of the windings. That guarantees that it is using an external voltage regulator, and is therefore solidstate. So with that, I am over 90% confident that this is an inverter-generator.

 

[Taylorkitchens]

Thank you for your technical know how!!

As you clearly know ALOT! About this sort of stuff, and I imagine its a lot to ask but what generator would/ could you recommend for me in the uk?

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Well, I could probably find you a good job-site generator, but swimming over there with it strapped to my back might be a little tough on my legs.  [big grin] [big grin]

But in all seriousness, you guys in the UK do have it different from those of us in the U.S. In the U.S., most construction sites will have mains power available shortly after the foundation goes in because we have a 120/240 volt system. In the UK, your job-site tools need to be 120 volt, but the mains power is 240 volt. This means that a lot of power sources that you use daily are not typically needed over here. The need for a job-site generator or transformer is not as common over here.

So really, the best answer should come from your fellow U.K. colleagues that already know where to get generators in a good variety of types and sizes. 

================================================
Oh, at this point, I should probably throw in a generic disclaimer. The information I am giving is specific to the conditions described in this thread. There are conditions where an inverter-generator is preferred for some reasons (such as economy and sound). So I don't want to make it sound as though they are universally bad. They are just not good given the conditions described in this particular thread.

 

[Sparktrician]

That all seems to be useful information Rick, but how would we know whether the Generators we are using are Solid State or Electromechanical?

If the engine speeds up and slows down depending on how much load is on it, then it is solidstate. For an electromechanical generator, you will hear the engine change load, but the rpm will remain relatively constant. Yeah I know. That may be fine for identifying what you already have, but it doesn't do you any good while you're standing in a store trying to pick one out.

Will it state what type it is on the specification plate on the machine?

I can't tell you that because it will vary from manufacturer to manufacturer. I can't even tell you what trigger words to look for because that is all a matter of marketing games. By all rights, only an electromechanical generator should be called "true sinusoidal", but unfortunately, quite a few manufacturers market their solidstate generators using this term.

Are the symptoms Taylor stated likely to appear worse due to the fact that he is running 110v rather than 240v?

No. The method of creating the simulated sine wave is the same. The only difference between the two is that for the same amount of power, the lower voltage machine will have to provide higher amperage levels.

I wish I could give you a better answer, but because so many companies deliberately gray the line, it makes it more difficult. If a unit is labeled as an inverter-generator, then you know for sure it is solidstate, because that is actually the proper name for it. Also, if it is fairly tiny and compact, it is also very likely to be an inverter-generator. The electromechanical (or also called electromagnetic) are typically a little larger in physical size.

Probably the best tip would be to look in the specifications. If it lists a single run-speed, then it is going to be electromechanical.

My GenTran portable does not specify anywhere on the machine nor in the manual that it is or is not true sine wave, but a call to the manufacturer was all it took to find out that it is a true sine wave genny. 

 

[Taylorkitchens]

Well I have Sorted it. It needs a minimum of a 5kva 4kw generator so the Jenny I had wasn't powerful enough and neither was a 3.4kva I tried. So off to get a 5 or 6 kva Jenny heavy ...

 

[oldie]

Read this thread earlier in day - sounds like you're cracked it now though.
So my thoughts are a bit late - even if they would have been of any help -  [unsure]
Big thanks to RickC for his contribution, and others as well.

Anyways, I reckon that a possible reason for the router working o/k
to start with was, that your genny managed for a while, but
(highly speculative) that it's circuits were getting increasingly
stressed out trying to supply the necessary current, maybe over-heating,
and therefore drifting out of design parameters, &/or, protection circuits
kicking in and reducing the power output - causing router to 'malfunction.'
Suspect your genny right on the very, very edge of being able to supply necessary current.

More generally, fancy underlying issue with tools that maintain their speed, regardless of load,
is tied up with the power-factor varying as the tool adjusts itself.
As RickC suggests, this can cause a tussle with the genny if under-powered.
My understanding of what can happen is, that when the tools are turned down,
that that will create (almost counter-intuitively) a sudden 'blip' of, surprisingly high,
current demand, from the generator due to the power-factor dropping.
In fact reckon, even whilst the tool is operating normally, you can get stream of super-fast 'blips'
of high currents demand from the genny as the tool adjusts itself.
(If necessary, please feel free to dump on me / correct me - I'm aware my
understanding may be way off the mark - have long since forgotten how complex such things can be.)


That said, was trying to find a supplier of suitable generators - and just hit a brick wall.
Thanks to RickC, my mantra was - which one run at constant speed; do they have 'brushes.'
Maybe I was unlucky - but the ones I spoke to this pm, for the most part, didn't have a clue
of what I was talking about.  Bloke at Just Generators spoke over me, and, would
have me get an inverter type - he really rattled my toe-nails.

Don't know how you're getting to try different gennys - I was going to suggest
trying to see if a hire-shop would let you try out different ones.  How you going
about trying various generators?
One site I will point towards is:
http://www.expresstools.co.uk/shop/harrington/harrington-petrol-generators.html
I would go for 6 if poss - just to allow the genny a bit extra breathing space.

Be great if you'd let us know what works - might help a few folk.
Thanks
Richard.