Oh, how I love those edges... (Zobo content)

[Holmz]

You will notice I did not even post one... It would be shaky-Jake.

 

[McNally Family]

[member=19746]Untidy Shop[/member] I can see now why Oliver wants to use a drill press.
I suspect my drilling with the zobos (etc) have equal lack of normality of the drill with the workpiece. Watching others drill it is always apparent that there is some leaning on direction or another.
This would seriously impact the surface finish and the size in an unpredictable way.

More Zobo action.....


It seems we have graduated from pictures to movies.

 

[Kev]

It's a shame they're not make in Greece, that would have been really funny [smile]

 

[six-point socket]

Hi!

Don't stop Oliver, I love your pictures

Agreed. ^^

Don't stop Oliver, you're awesome.

Thanks! All is well - we were all joking, at least I was  [scared] Good times... Maybe I should use even more smileys

[member=19746]Untidy Shop[/member] I can see now why Oliver wants to use a drill press.
I suspect my drilling with the zobos (etc) have equal lack of normality of the drill with the workpiece. Watching others drill it is always apparent that there is some leaning on direction or another.
This would seriously impact the surface finish and the size in an unpredictable way.

For just showing how well the Zobo's cut it doesn't matter much if it's a drill press or hand held - but you wanted the more scientific approach So let's try to do this in a away that it's not just pure fun, but also results in at least a little bit of valuable information in an objective way.

To honor this, I looked at my older Forstners and decided to make it fair by ordering brand new competitor models. I decided to stick with 15 mm as that's what started the discussion.

So on the way are:

Famag Bormax 15 mm (1622015, "Profi")
Bosch/Hawera 15 mm (2608596972)
Projahn 15 mm (33015)

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[six-point socket]

Mmhhmmmm, edges!  [eek]  [scared]  [eek]  [scared]  [eek]  [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]

Wrong edge?!  [crying]  [eek]  [scared]  [big grin] :

Even more edges...  [eek] [eek]  [scared] [scared]  [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[six-point socket]

Another type of edge...  [big grin]  [big grin]  [big grin]  [big grin]

[attachimg=1]

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[Holmz]

...
Seriously though, I'm not sure a comparison between all new bits will tell us what we need to know.  I think even a cheap bit will cut well a few times.  I'm thinking a comparison over many, many holes, would be better (and I think the Swiss Steel from Festool would be tough to beat). 
...

The hardness is related to keeping an edge, and is good information.

Now what is this magic Swiss steel that Festool uses?
Festool does not make Forster bits. Swiss manufacture, Zobo, makes bits that have a splash of green paint and Festool marks the price up.

Same with the tape measure, their routers were not always made in house, their vacuums by nilfisk, etc. the system of gathering together brands and painting them a uniform colour of green dose not improve them significantly.

Other tools like the track saw are unique and have been around a long time, and the Kapex would fall into that category of an in-Haus designed tool.

Mitsubishi/Dodge, Ford/Mazda, and Chevy/Opal routinely rebadge each other's vehicles. But it does not change the vehicle.

[/Rant off]

 

[McNally Family]

...
Seriously though, I'm not sure a comparison between all new bits will tell us what we need to know.  I think even a cheap bit will cut well a few times.  I'm thinking a comparison over many, many holes, would be better (and I think the Swiss Steel from Festool would be tough to beat). 
...

The hardness is related to keeping an edge, and is good information.

Now what is this magic Swiss steel that Festool uses?
Festool does not make Forster bits. Swiss manufacture, Zobo, makes bits that have a splash of green paint and Festool marks the price up.

Same with the tape measure, their routers were not always made in house, their vacuums by nilfisk, etc. the system of gathering together brands and painting them a uniform colour of green dose not improve them significantly.

Other tools like the track saw are unique and have been around a long time, and the Kapex would fall into that category of an in-Haus designed tool.

Mitsubishi/Dodge, Ford/Mazda, and Chevy/Opal routinely rebadge each other's vehicles. But it does not change the vehicle.

[/Rant off]

Sears is famous for re-badging many products, which includes their Kenmore line of appliances.  My Dad spent his working life designing both shock absorbers and exhaust products for Maremont/Gabriel.  Back in the day, you could go into a Sears and ask which shocks were Maremont and which were Monroe.

Sears became a huge portion of Maremont's business, but never so much that Sears could control Maremont.  Many companies went out of business when Sears became demanding, and if not satisfied, ended the business relationship.  Those companies discovered too late that the majority of their business came from Sears. 

Sears no longer has that kind of clout, and is slowly going bankrupt themselves.

Wow, from Zobo to Sears, all in one thread....
https://www.timbertools.com/ZOBO-Central-Drilling-Systems/

Machined from the highest quality steel, ZOBO Forstner-Style bits are dead-on precise, featuring interchangeable pinpoint and pilot bits for machining precision holes at any angle. ZOBO bits clear their own path, effortlessly speeding through dense material, saving time and wasted steps. Quick-change shanks are best suited for use with the Festool Centrotec System, but ensure secure gripping in any keyless chuck. Packed in a compact, durable SYS-MINI, Festool ZOBO bits are now available in both Metric and Imperial dimensions.

Precise - Machined from the highest quality steel, ZOBO bits are dead-on precise, featuring interchangeable pinpoint and pilot bits for machining precision holes at any angle. Now available in both Metric and Imperial.

Fast - Designed to plow through dense materials with great ease, ZOBO bits feature highly effi cient chip ejection so they clear their own path, reducing time spent clearing debris.

Durable - Rapid chip removal prevents overheating, keeping your bits sharper longer. Hard-wearing steel can be sharpened up to 30 times, so your investment lasts a long, long time.

Includes:

Systainer SYS-MINI

 

[six-point socket]

Hi!

Don't stop Oliver, I love your pictures

Agreed. ^^

Don't stop Oliver, you're awesome.

Thanks! All is well - we were all joking, at least I was  [scared] Good times... Maybe I should use even more smileys

[member=19746]Untidy Shop[/member] I can see now why Oliver wants to use a drill press.
I suspect my drilling with the zobos (etc) have equal lack of normality of the drill with the workpiece. Watching others drill it is always apparent that there is some leaning on direction or another.
This would seriously impact the surface finish and the size in an unpredictable way.

For just showing how well the Zobo's cut it doesn't matter much if it's a drill press or hand held - but you wanted the more scientific approach So let's try to do this in a away that it's not just pure fun, but also results in at least a little bit of valuable information in an objective way.

To honor this, I looked at my older Forstners and decided to make it fair by ordering brand new competitor models. I decided to stick with 15 mm as that's what started the discussion.

So on the way are:

Famag Bormax 15 mm (1622015, "Profi")
Bosch/Hawera 15 mm (2608596972)
Projahn 15 mm (33015)

Kind regards,
Oliver

Oliver, since your in the ordering mood, and wanting to be sure we keep this purely scientific, I think it will also require you ordering me a TS55 saw, just saying (in order to keep me purely objective).

Seriously though, I'm not sure a comparison between all new bits will tell us what we need to know.  I think even a cheap bit will cut well a few times.  I'm thinking a comparison over many, many holes, would be better (and I think the Swiss Steel from Festool would be tough to beat).  The ability to resharpen is another consideration, that and how many times a bit can be successfully resharpened, without compromising the integrity of the edge. 

Have I earned my saw yet?

Cliff

p.s.  Where can I find a green knife and Festool mouse pad like yours?

Hi!

You definitely deserve a TS55, no question there - but I'm sorry, not from my pocket, lol.  [tongue]  [tongue]  [wink]  [eek]  [big grin]

I did something similar years ago for knives. A very abrasive medium was chosen, in this case sisal rope - and then it was cut. 10 times, 20 times, 30 times... I think the knife that got the most cuts was in the 150/160 range. Edge holding/sharpness was tested by shaving hair from my arms and literally categorized in "hair popping sharp/no pressure", "shaving sharp/light pressure", "will shave/hard pressure", "will not shave". Also taken into consideration was edge geometry (angle, blade thickness...) In the end my table with the results was pretty accurate compared to peoples experience with certain knives, steels/tempering there of and edge geometry.

I'm not saying testing like this/similar to this is the meets end all solution for ranking "edged tools" or making definite statements on their quality but it is empirical, comprehensible and repeatable because the facts (edged tool's make and model, material to be cut/drilled/*whatever*, accessories used) are accessible to everyone after publication.

I this case I made sure all Forstner drill bits are steel only - no cemented carbide tips/edges - and I will try to add information about hardness and cutting angles for all Forstner drill bits "tested".

In the end I hope for results that will allow to make certain, fairly accurate predictions on how a Forstner drill bit is going to perform over time and in different materials. I'm pretty positive that this can be achieved - and it's a fun project for me as I have nothing to gain or to loose by it.

I also have no doubt that the measurements mentioned by Holmz (resulting hole diameter for example) will be very interesting to look at and might be a very important factor when deciding on which Forstner drill bit to go with.

Another interesting and important factor is if accurate information for re-sharpening is included with the product by the manufacturer.

Of course I will not be able to tell if statements like: "you can re-sharpen a Zobo up to 30 times" as set out by the manufacturer is accurate.

Additionally information like list prices/street prices are interesting and I'm willing to locate and list information like this separately for the US/UK and Germany. To give an example for Germany: If you were going to buy a single 15 mm Forstner drill bit today from Amazon or Amazon Marketplace you'd be paying: Festool/Zobo 23,54 EUR / FAMAG 20,83 EUR / Bosch 12,33 EUR / Projahn 8,68 EUR / Hawera 13,40 EUR

This can also be included in the final ranking.

For the "mousepad" - it's no mousepad It's a breakfast board that was part of the welcoming gift to the 2016 German Festool Roadshow - along with that knife (Victorinox "bread" knife), a Mini-Systainer and a Granat 120 grit hand sanding block.

--
--

>> Personal mission statement - not directed at anyone in particular

 

[six-point socket]

Here's the wood I purchased today for this project.

70 mm x 70 mm, solid larch wood. approx. 2000 mm, cut in half.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[Cheese]

Oliver...first off...love you invoking your personal mission statement  [not worthy]  great idea and something we've needed on the FOG for awhile.
It seems that currently, any post can be subject to any imbecile bashing it for whatever petty reasons their diminutive minds can conjure up...and that's then supposed to be taken as something worthy of consideration. Life doesn't work like that. There's a reason that the statement, "consider the source", still rings true.
And you're right...this is supposed to be fun. You're not getting paid for the time you spend on devising the parameters on which you will evaluate the various Forstner bits. It's a starting point and as with everything else in life, it's just another data point in the billions of data points that we already observe, I'm looking forward to your insight. Let the games begin...

 

[six-point socket]

Hi!

Ok, so that no one thinks I'm flaking out on this one  [eek]  [scared]  [big grin] [big grin]

I started with the project today, currently working on pictures and videos from the first run. The day started out nice, got surprised by rain twice *wink* to Festool: SYS-PH 230V definitely holds up to IP44 standard (don't ask me how I know now...)

Couple of random expressions from today in no particular order:

(...)

- Sheeeeeeeee-it ( (c) State Senator R. Clayton "Clay" Davis from the TV-Series The Wire)

- Ohh.

- D'oh ( (c) Homer J. Simpson from the TV-Series The Simpsons)

- Oh, yeah.

- Like a hot knife through butter.

- I got a lot of new respect for those longterm Youtuber's.

(...)

Today's setup.

Delinquents.

I have quite a couple of things left to do before I'm going to publish the whole set of pictures and video footage along with my thoughts and tables/charts. I will also contact someone to gather some more intel on a subject that came up while "testing".

Please be a little patient - this is definitely coming along!

Kind regards,
Oliver

 

[six-point socket]

Hi!

I decided to publish the first part of this project. Let's start with a video, please bear with me as this is one of my first videos ever - there are some passages that are not sharp because the autofocus on my Canon SX20IS didn't properly adapt - probably because the zoom level was to high - I will have better equipment for the next part.

Sadly it seems bb-html-tags are not allowed, so I can't embed the video But here is the link: https://sendvid.com/3ylq89h0

(I did decide against using YouTube for a reason)

Please do not share the video without my little corresponding write up as a couple of things have to be explained - if anyone wants to share it at all.

Let's start with a closer look at the "delinquents". From left to right: FAMAG Bormax (profi), PROJAHN, BOSCH diy (China), FESTOOL Zobo

All 4 share common ground - 15 mm outer diameter. (Continuing with this project, I'll have digital calipers to get numbers.)

FAMAG

PROJAHN

BOSCH

FESTOOL

Length

Now the "fun" part starts. If you watched the video you already know that for this very first encounter I used a Bosch Professional GBH 2-26 DFR - it's an SDS-Plus rotary hammer of almost 3 kg - used with a rapid exchange chuck (with collets) instead of the SDS-Plus chuck. It goes approximately 900 rpm. Why did I do that? I wanted a genuine first impression with a drill I had laying around. No fine tuning and tweaking for best results - simply straight and true.

I didn't give it any test shots. I removed the Forstner drill bits from their packaging and off we went.

Quiet obviously a machine like that is not made for this kind of work. It is too heavy and tolerances are anything but tight on a rotary hammer with exchangeable chucks. BUT it is still realistic because if you look at all the different trades many use this kind of rotary hammer for a lot of different jobs - and at some point might end up needing to drill a hole trough a beam for piping, cables or whatever with it.

Now if you watched the video you saw that the FAMAG drill bit went in and out pretty smooth but not perfectly clean. It created very fine shavings and generated not much to no heat.

Then I went on with the PROJAHN. What a difference. Not only was it a lot slower, cut worse and I really had to push it into the material, but also it created much larger shavings that stuck to the drill bit - that lead to heat build up and finally to a burnt smell and burnt hole.

The BOSCH is pretty similar to the PROJAHN speaking of its edges/geometry. It also cut slower than the FAMAG, with much larger shavings and a similar result of material stuck to the drill bit - also I had to push harder. Again heat built up and the result is the same.

I then went for the FESTOOL. Larger shavings than the FAMAG but it cuts as fast and smooth into the material. But: because of the larger shavings and it's edges/geometry material does stick to it when you push to hard and forget to clean the path. So the end result is again pretty much the same - a burnt smell and a burnt hole.

Now we're getting to the next part of the video when I drilled into the edge of my wooden post at an angle. Again, please keep in mind that I'm working with a machine that comes very close to 3 and a bit kilograms. So I started in reverse order beginning with the FESTOOL drill bit and as expected it went in smooth as silk. When pulling out I didn't pull completely straight and the corner of the drill bit caught the material - which resulted in a big chip. You'll notice that this time I drilled kina "once more with feeling" and as expected the FESTOOL drill bit did not clog/overheat.

Going on with the Bosch - it's back to what I wrote in the first part. More pressure, not so smooth cuts and clogging.

Then the PROJAHN. Which did not clog this time but slipped on the second run. From all the bits it was the hardest to cut with, the saw horses wiggled just a little and it slipped. Pretty much because it has the shortest centering tip from all of the drill bits.

Last I went with the FAMAG and again it performed very well.

Then I gave the FESTOOL a second run because I wanted to see if I would create another chip. I didn't. I also re-confirmed that by pushing just a little to hard the drill bit clogs immediately and overheats.

The first video ends here.

To take it to the max, I put the 3 mm drill bit into the center opening of the FESTOOL Zobo and went through the complete 70 mm of my wooden post. Pushed it down really hard without cleaning the path - and I created a nice clog. Why did I do that? I wanted to see if the bit - despite the burnt smell and burnt hole - would create a smooth cut. It did. And for the record, I went in from one side for approximately 67 mm and then turned the wooden post to remove the last 3 mm. Cutting ability is really excellent on the Zobo.

Now let's take a closer look at the holes. Starting with FESTOOL. Cleanest cuts in the line up - right down to the bottom of each hole. Sadly one big and a small chip after pulling out. I will further experiment here.

BOSCH: Cuts suitable for general construction work, require aftercare. No chips during the angled cuts.

PROJAHN: Rather rough cuts, short centering pin leads to slippage. Bigger chip on angled cuts. General construction work on a budget. (Cheapest drill bit in the line up at well below 10 Euro-Bucks )

FAMAG. Not as clean as the FESTOOL but close. Little chip on the angled cut, rather rough entry on all holes.

PROJAHN: While cleaning the drill bits I noticed that one edge of the drill bit had a small but very noticeable dent.

What can I say? I had a blast - and I want to continue this as I don't feel up to drawing any real conclusions yet. Drill press, lighter drill and more solid setup will be next. Then I will also publish some tables and charts from my measuring results.

What definitely can be said is that even new out of box drill bits lead to noticeable varying results - sharp and new do not guarantee a clean cut.

Kind regards,
Oliver