Ken Nagrod
Member
- Joined
- Jul 15, 2010
- Messages
- 3,431
WarnerConstCo. said:
That explains the extra eye on your back.
OK, what's the deal with lead and asbestos? (HEPA dust extractors)
- Thread starter moofie
- Start date
That explains the extra eye on your back.
Cableaddict
Member
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2011
- Messages
- 90
WarnerConstCo. said:
I agree with that first part. Not quite as much with the second, but also to SOME extent. That's why I don't feel the need to starve for 2 months in order to pay a pro to clean this up.
Still, it would be foolish not to be as careful as possible.
================================
Alex, thanks for that info. Very helpful.
mastercabman
Member
- Joined
- Apr 15, 2007
- Messages
- 1,854
I agree,leave it alone and you will be fine.WarnerConstCo. said:
WarnerConstCo. said:
If you are a smoker, exposure to asbestos increases the likelihood that you will get lung cancer by 50 times. It's a really bad combination.
http://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/asbestos/site-kit/docs/CigarettesAsbestos2.pdf
Holzhacker
Member
- Joined
- Mar 31, 2009
- Messages
- 1,192
Lead, asbestos, blah, blah. Some of the discussions would lead you to believe you'll get cancer or die just looking at it. The rules are in place because the products CAN be hazardous. Everyone has different levels of physical tolerance and that's why we need protective rules. I grew up in a town with lead mains, we still have lead mains. Would I be smarter if I had grown up in a town with only copper water mains? Who knows. HUD came out with an article a couple years ago that stated that kids weren't getting much lead poisoning from eating lead paint (which has tended to be the common assumption). The study showed that lead poisoning was primarily coming from airborne contamination. As much as the rules may be a PIA do any of us want to breathe crap because the neighbor hired a slimeball contractor?
As far as asbestos, I feel for the people who have gotten sick. Unfortunately I can't buy into the severe predictions of asbestos exposure. If it were that bad I'd be long dead.
As far as asbestos, I feel for the people who have gotten sick. Unfortunately I can't buy into the severe predictions of asbestos exposure. If it were that bad I'd be long dead.
Cableaddict
Member
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2011
- Messages
- 90
BUMP.
Still waiting for an official answer from Festool.
Still waiting for an official answer from Festool.
Tom the Remodeler
Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2007
- Messages
- 1,106
Lead pipes is NOT THE SAME as lead paint. The Lead paint itself is relatively harmless, it's the DUST that it produces that can be harmful.
Also, we need to separate the difference between ACTUAL risk levels versus PERCEIVED risk. I agree that most of us grew up in houses that contained some amount of lead based paint. Did it affect us? Well, not as far as we know.
The issue for contractors is, the EPA DOES think it's a significant issue, and will fine you over $32,000 PER DAY if they find that you are not in compliance with the regs. It doesn't matter if you disagree with them, or think it's a non-issue. The EPA has already started to fine contractors, starting back in early 2011.
As for homeowners performing the work, I suppose it depends on how long you plan to live in the house. Something to consider is resale. As mentioned above, when you go to sell the place and the potential buyers look at your place and say "Hmm, 100 years old, looks like you've remodeled recently, who did your RRP work?". Again, it's all about perceived risk. Some people may be like-minded, shrug their shoulders and say "oh well, no big deal".
Then there is the crowd like a customer I worked for last summer. My helper accidentally broke two CFL bulbs in an unfinished attic. I drove to the home center to buy two new CFL's to match the ones my helper broke. The customer met me at the front door and just about lost her mind. She was just barely able to restrain herself from screaming at me, going on about all the mercury that was released into her house, and how would we clean up the "toxic waste" in her attic?
Granted, the EPA is not going after homeowners. But what about the people you sell the house to? When their baby grows up and develops a learning disability and haul you in front of a jury, which side do you think will win? The disabled kid will win 100 times out of 100.
Anyways, I'm not trying to dissuade anybody from working on their homes. Just practice safety. Follow the EPA guidelines. Cover your butt. Wear the Tyvek suit, wrap everything in 6 mil plastic, and document EVERYTHING. Whenever I start a Lead job one of the first things that I do is document that there is already Lead in the soil, because if you live in a metropolitan area there WILL be Lead in the soil, and you need to document that it was there prior to your involvement.
The negative pressure idea is a no-no, unless you are filtering the outgoing air with a certified HEPA filtration unit. The list goes on and on....
As for the Asbestos thing, hire it out, hire it out, hire it out. If you do try to tackle it yourself, buy a vac designed specifically for asbestos, and either sell it or dispose of it when you're done. My guess is that Festool is going to tell you that, in the North American market, they do not recommend the use of any of their dust extractors for Asbestos work.
I'm not trying to be a party pooper here, but there are potentially HUGE criminal and civil liabilities here, and any project involving Lead or Asbestos should be undertaken with a high degree of caution.
Thanks!
Best,
Tom
(stumbles off of soapbox)
Also, we need to separate the difference between ACTUAL risk levels versus PERCEIVED risk. I agree that most of us grew up in houses that contained some amount of lead based paint. Did it affect us? Well, not as far as we know.
The issue for contractors is, the EPA DOES think it's a significant issue, and will fine you over $32,000 PER DAY if they find that you are not in compliance with the regs. It doesn't matter if you disagree with them, or think it's a non-issue. The EPA has already started to fine contractors, starting back in early 2011.
As for homeowners performing the work, I suppose it depends on how long you plan to live in the house. Something to consider is resale. As mentioned above, when you go to sell the place and the potential buyers look at your place and say "Hmm, 100 years old, looks like you've remodeled recently, who did your RRP work?". Again, it's all about perceived risk. Some people may be like-minded, shrug their shoulders and say "oh well, no big deal".
Then there is the crowd like a customer I worked for last summer. My helper accidentally broke two CFL bulbs in an unfinished attic. I drove to the home center to buy two new CFL's to match the ones my helper broke. The customer met me at the front door and just about lost her mind. She was just barely able to restrain herself from screaming at me, going on about all the mercury that was released into her house, and how would we clean up the "toxic waste" in her attic?
Granted, the EPA is not going after homeowners. But what about the people you sell the house to? When their baby grows up and develops a learning disability and haul you in front of a jury, which side do you think will win? The disabled kid will win 100 times out of 100.
Anyways, I'm not trying to dissuade anybody from working on their homes. Just practice safety. Follow the EPA guidelines. Cover your butt. Wear the Tyvek suit, wrap everything in 6 mil plastic, and document EVERYTHING. Whenever I start a Lead job one of the first things that I do is document that there is already Lead in the soil, because if you live in a metropolitan area there WILL be Lead in the soil, and you need to document that it was there prior to your involvement.
The negative pressure idea is a no-no, unless you are filtering the outgoing air with a certified HEPA filtration unit. The list goes on and on....
As for the Asbestos thing, hire it out, hire it out, hire it out. If you do try to tackle it yourself, buy a vac designed specifically for asbestos, and either sell it or dispose of it when you're done. My guess is that Festool is going to tell you that, in the North American market, they do not recommend the use of any of their dust extractors for Asbestos work.
I'm not trying to be a party pooper here, but there are potentially HUGE criminal and civil liabilities here, and any project involving Lead or Asbestos should be undertaken with a high degree of caution.
Thanks!
Best,
Tom
(stumbles off of soapbox)
WarnerConstCo.
Member
- Joined
- Apr 14, 2008
- Messages
- 4,205
Spray asbestos with water if you have break it up. Spray the bags with water, water keeps the dust down.
I see asbestos abatement companies all the time just knocking the stuff down, no suits or respirators, just knocking it down and hosing it with water.
Just waking up and going out to get in the truck is hazardous enough.
I see asbestos abatement companies all the time just knocking the stuff down, no suits or respirators, just knocking it down and hosing it with water.
Just waking up and going out to get in the truck is hazardous enough.
Cableaddict said:
You might want to send an email. Lots of people are out of town and playing catch up on threads will be tough next week. Your post has a good chance of being overlooked.
Peter
WarnerConstCo. said:
You might want to read up on the topic a bit more... Yes the owner might be able to work on the project themselves at one time… but don't count on it anymore. Being that this forum covers many US States and Cities in the USA and many members are in other countries... we really can't and must not state absolutes as each Country, State and Local authority can add to the puzzle.
At one time in MN, USA no matter how many properties if you owned, you could pull the permit and do the work yourself or act as GC. Well that is not the case anymore. Back many years it changed to a person is only able to work on their "homesteaded" properties, and for several years a single MN resident could homestead 2 properties. But that has now changes. A person can only homestead one property. So they can only work on the “One and only One” home they live in. Just because they own it is not enough anymore to be pull a permit and be able work on it without a licensed contractor.
The reason… well in one word… “Lawyers”. If person owning it, is not living in it full time. Most likely others will be living or staying in it. If the person living/staying in it is not a relative of the owner (check local definition of “relatives”) then the owner might let others use (rent/stay) at the property. So all PERMITS for construction work shall only be pulled by a licensed contractor. Any lead/asbestos work MUST BE DONE BY A LICENSED/TRAINED CONTRACTOR that has been approved to do such work.
So at the most a person can assume is that they can pull permits for and work on the property they own and live in full time. That said if they do the work, they will have to pull the permits. If they sell said property shortly after work is done… their azz is grass… as they just worked as a contractor and can be seen liable for lack of following lead and asbestos regs.
Baseline, go by the regulations... or go get ready to pay for the fines and lawsuits filed by the new owner when their dog gets sick and needs $50,000 worth of cancer treatment.
Just kind-of CYA or follow the rules? Just follow the rules. It is like the statement “The best lie is the Truth” without the hassle of having to remember what you made up.
Cheers,
Steve
score0matic
Member
- Joined
- Jun 7, 2008
- Messages
- 651
warner has the right idea. I am a licensed abatement supervisor the key to successful abatement is engineered solutions (making no airborne dust of any kind keeping it wet and HEPA air scrubbers) rather than PPE (personal protective equipment) all legitimate asbestos abatement's are monitored for air quality and without any question the air inside an active abatement cleaner than anywhere with the possible exception of a computer clean room or all work is stopped.
From reading literature that has been provided by the EPA, one would be led to believe that if you even look at asbestos you would die tomorrow from from one flavor of cancer or another. This is simply untrue. Being proactive regarding containment and cleanup is by far better than not being so. Yes, there is a risk but there are more factors involved than could possibly be enumerated or calculated. Only you can decide what your risk threshold is.
There is nothing going on here that has not been going on for as long as man has been building houses. Do not play into the EPA's fear campaign as it is more about industry lobbying and lawyers chasing ambulances than reality.
Use some general common sense and I am confident you will be just fine.
There is nothing going on here that has not been going on for as long as man has been building houses. Do not play into the EPA's fear campaign as it is more about industry lobbying and lawyers chasing ambulances than reality.
Use some general common sense and I am confident you will be just fine.
As a follow up on the question on whether or not the NA models of the CT 26 /36 family can be used for asbestos:
[attachimg=#]
This is from page 11 of the NA manual which can be found at this link: http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/ct26_36_usa_hepa_manual.pdf
Peter
[attachimg=#]
This is from page 11 of the NA manual which can be found at this link: http://www.festoolusa.com/media/pdf/ct26_36_usa_hepa_manual.pdf
Peter
- Joined
- Jan 22, 2007
- Messages
- 8,426
As has already been stated, our dust extractors are not tested, certified or suitable for use with asbestos. There's the official answer. [wink]
Hi there
Thought I would contribute my 2 cents for what its worth....(2 cents)...
In Australia we have adopted the euro standard of L, M and H class vacs. I've been in the market for suitable lead/asbestos vac for a while as I have some home renovations to do and I dont want to be spewing hazardous dust all over the place when its cleanup time. I had to demolish a fireplace recently (house was built in 1900s) and came across some suspicious looking materials. I phoned around and found some local industrial chemist labs (SGS international being one) that did asbestos testing. Negotiated a price and then got the stuff tested - the results were negative for asbestos. Still, being the cautious guy that I am, I continued researching into asbestos vacs and found the following interesting things:
* A HEPA vac is not by definition suitable for lead and asbestos
* An H class vac should explicitly be specified as suitable for asbestos and/or lead by the manufacturer.
* An H class vac is not suitable for asbestos work in Germany. The German standard for asbestos removal is far greater than that for the rest of Europe (I don't know why). For this purpose you need an H class vac rated for asbestos. A comparison of different models by a German manufacturer (Starmix) implies that the key differences are a sticker that specifically cites it is an asbestos vac, and a vacuum cleaner with reduced airflow (I'm assuming so that asbestos fibers do not penetrate the filter further and hence a certain percentage of filtration can be achieved such as 99.997% - I contacted the manufacturer about this but their customer service is woeful - never got back to me). These vacs also take special hazardous bags.
* H class vacs MUST have a certificate. The certificate is a Quality Assurance process that shows that the filter, as fitted, achieved a certain percentage of filtration and hence is now certified as an H class vac. i.e. the actual vac you are about to buy has been tested. I'm sure this bumps the price up considerably. The problem with $100 cheapy vacs is that they are not properly tested and although the filter may be rated as 99.95% etc, there are issues where blow-by around the filter actually reduces the effective filtration of the system as a whole. Hence the need for certification. Without the certificate, there is actually no guarantee that the required filtration spec is actually met, so you may well be releasing many fibres back into your workspace. This is a problem where a vac, when it comes to have its filter replaced, should be re-certified. I don't think this is done anywhere other that probably the DoD where ULPA vacs are used for vacuuming of radioactive material. (ULPA filtration is the highest standard above HEPA H class).
* In Australia, there is a Nilfisk model IVB-3H that is rated for asbestos removal. I had a look at one and there actually was a testing certificate in the box. I was told that some places would replace the filter when time came for maintenance and just order new certificates without actually testing the vacs and apparently got into trouble for it. If you buy a Nilfisk and lose that piece of paper you cannot get another one. The manual for the IVB-3H states suitable for asbestos removal only outside of Germany.
* I think we also have a Festool H class vac suitable for asbestos removal in Australia, and it is I believe superior in design to the Nilfisk vac, but it is also double the price.
Anyone who is doubting the danger of asbestos just needs to realise that it won't kill you tomorrow, next week or next year. Depending on exposure however it may kill you in 20+ years. If there is any doubt as to the nature of the hazard, google "james hardie australia asbestos". These were people with well documented exposure who contracted mesothelioma. The worker's wives who would wash their clothes also fell ill. They had to go through hell to get their payouts. Don't take your chances with asbestos. A few hundred dollars spent now is money in the bank when compared to healthcare costs, especially in the US. We have socialised medicine here in Australia so you at least get some treatment - although waiting times can be a killer if you don't have private health insurance. The problem with mesothelioma is, quite simply, that its terminal.
I noticed someone also mentioned that you can hire a vac. Referring back on everything I posted, unless the hired vac has been tested and certified in the manner described, you may be putting yourself at greater risk if the last guy using it, knowingly or not, used it to vacuum a whole lot of asbestos/lead etc. You may be better off actually buying a cheap vac! We have hire places in Australia and they pretty much rely on the end users' honesty - they wont hire it out to you if you mention asbestos, but if you don't, you can do with it what you like! No one will ever know. If you're going to hire ask for certificates and about hazardous bags - if they give you a blank look, run a mile.
Please note everything I have written may be inaccurate - I'm only going from memory and other's anecdotal evidence. Good luck and happy vacuuming.
Thought I would contribute my 2 cents for what its worth....(2 cents)...
In Australia we have adopted the euro standard of L, M and H class vacs. I've been in the market for suitable lead/asbestos vac for a while as I have some home renovations to do and I dont want to be spewing hazardous dust all over the place when its cleanup time. I had to demolish a fireplace recently (house was built in 1900s) and came across some suspicious looking materials. I phoned around and found some local industrial chemist labs (SGS international being one) that did asbestos testing. Negotiated a price and then got the stuff tested - the results were negative for asbestos. Still, being the cautious guy that I am, I continued researching into asbestos vacs and found the following interesting things:
* A HEPA vac is not by definition suitable for lead and asbestos
* An H class vac should explicitly be specified as suitable for asbestos and/or lead by the manufacturer.
* An H class vac is not suitable for asbestos work in Germany. The German standard for asbestos removal is far greater than that for the rest of Europe (I don't know why). For this purpose you need an H class vac rated for asbestos. A comparison of different models by a German manufacturer (Starmix) implies that the key differences are a sticker that specifically cites it is an asbestos vac, and a vacuum cleaner with reduced airflow (I'm assuming so that asbestos fibers do not penetrate the filter further and hence a certain percentage of filtration can be achieved such as 99.997% - I contacted the manufacturer about this but their customer service is woeful - never got back to me). These vacs also take special hazardous bags.
* H class vacs MUST have a certificate. The certificate is a Quality Assurance process that shows that the filter, as fitted, achieved a certain percentage of filtration and hence is now certified as an H class vac. i.e. the actual vac you are about to buy has been tested. I'm sure this bumps the price up considerably. The problem with $100 cheapy vacs is that they are not properly tested and although the filter may be rated as 99.95% etc, there are issues where blow-by around the filter actually reduces the effective filtration of the system as a whole. Hence the need for certification. Without the certificate, there is actually no guarantee that the required filtration spec is actually met, so you may well be releasing many fibres back into your workspace. This is a problem where a vac, when it comes to have its filter replaced, should be re-certified. I don't think this is done anywhere other that probably the DoD where ULPA vacs are used for vacuuming of radioactive material. (ULPA filtration is the highest standard above HEPA H class).
* In Australia, there is a Nilfisk model IVB-3H that is rated for asbestos removal. I had a look at one and there actually was a testing certificate in the box. I was told that some places would replace the filter when time came for maintenance and just order new certificates without actually testing the vacs and apparently got into trouble for it. If you buy a Nilfisk and lose that piece of paper you cannot get another one. The manual for the IVB-3H states suitable for asbestos removal only outside of Germany.
* I think we also have a Festool H class vac suitable for asbestos removal in Australia, and it is I believe superior in design to the Nilfisk vac, but it is also double the price.
Anyone who is doubting the danger of asbestos just needs to realise that it won't kill you tomorrow, next week or next year. Depending on exposure however it may kill you in 20+ years. If there is any doubt as to the nature of the hazard, google "james hardie australia asbestos". These were people with well documented exposure who contracted mesothelioma. The worker's wives who would wash their clothes also fell ill. They had to go through hell to get their payouts. Don't take your chances with asbestos. A few hundred dollars spent now is money in the bank when compared to healthcare costs, especially in the US. We have socialised medicine here in Australia so you at least get some treatment - although waiting times can be a killer if you don't have private health insurance. The problem with mesothelioma is, quite simply, that its terminal.
I noticed someone also mentioned that you can hire a vac. Referring back on everything I posted, unless the hired vac has been tested and certified in the manner described, you may be putting yourself at greater risk if the last guy using it, knowingly or not, used it to vacuum a whole lot of asbestos/lead etc. You may be better off actually buying a cheap vac! We have hire places in Australia and they pretty much rely on the end users' honesty - they wont hire it out to you if you mention asbestos, but if you don't, you can do with it what you like! No one will ever know. If you're going to hire ask for certificates and about hazardous bags - if they give you a blank look, run a mile.
Please note everything I have written may be inaccurate - I'm only going from memory and other's anecdotal evidence. Good luck and happy vacuuming.
AussieBob,
Welcome to the FOG!
Thank you for that first post!
Peter
Welcome to the FOG!
Thank you for that first post!
Peter
Cableaddict
Member
- Joined
- Oct 9, 2011
- Messages
- 90
Shane Holland said:
Thanks, Shane.
I don't really understand this, though. If it can't fully contain asbestos (which is what I'm asking) then it can't fully contain lead. Yet, it's RPP certified.
I guess I'll be getting lung cancer, as I can't afford another vac, and have to do this myself.
Oh well.
Cableaddict said:
I have to say that based on the medical history that you have posted here in several threads, you should be consulting and listening to medical professionals. You have posted about having medical issues related to your lungs, then you ask about the capabilities about the CT's, then you are given answers, then after getting answers that do not meet your expectations you say that you will carry on none the less.
People have choices of paths. Please choose a path that is better for your health - hire someone else.
Peter
