okay we're ready for some news

[Texastutt]

Yup.  Panasic (Panasonic)

Spelling Phtt overrated.

 

[Corwin]

Spelling Phtt overrated.

Never thought to do a search on Phht, err no, I meant Phtt.  But definitely overraided. 

 

[Steve Jones]

not sure (memory being the second thing to go when you get old) but didn't I read somewhere recently...
A) Someone from festool explaining they're not interested in Li-ion yet because of the known problems (ie: they explode sometimes)
B) Didn't some manufacturere just recall a bunch of rechargeable drills because the li-ion batteries were exploding.

I wish my memory worked better

Steve

 

[Jerry Work]

Hi all,

I have posted on the issue of battery technology before but this is such a hot topic that a few concepts are worth repeating.  I spent the last portion of the first half of my career as the Assoc. Dir. of a 4000 person R&D organization.  I had direct responsibility for our work (for both public and private sector clients) in energy, transportation, medical and information technologies so had more than a passing association with various battery technologies.  Each technology offers superior performance within a given envelope of recharge life, recharge time, total power draw, rate of power draw, weight, and cost among other parameters. 

There was at that time no clear "winner" for anything but one given application and I presume that is also true today.  But the battery technology was far from the most important factor when selecting a battery technology for a given application.  The efficiency of the consuming device was far more important so that is where the discussion should start on what the "right" battery technology should be for battery operated power tools.  The power draw characteristics of the common brush style DC motor is vastly different from the power draw characteristics of the C12 drill, for example.  The C12 uses a three phase AC brushless motor that is way more efficient in the drill application (others likely as well) than the brush style DC motor.  To get the most from this efficiency advantage it is necessary to carefully match the battery technology to this specific power draw profile.  Change the draw profile (saw vs drill for example) and the designer might well select a different battery technology.

What seems to be at play in the big box store wars appears to be a consumer rush to Li battery technology as "superior" in and of itself.  It is for some profiles, but not for all.  Add to this the vast difference in manufacturing quality between battery manufacturer "A" and "B" within batteries of the same technology and it really becomes a muddy picture.  From my POV the best bet is to stay with a quality manufacturer using quality engineering principles in the design choices when making a selection.  Stay away from those who allow marketing principles and price to overwhelm these two.  Hope this helps.

Jerry

 

[Bob Marino]

Hi all,

I have posted on the issue of battery technology before but this is such a hot topic that a few concepts are worth repeating.  I spent the last portion of the first half of my career as the Assoc. Dir. of a 4000 person R&D organization.  I had direct responsibility for our work (for both public and private sector clients) in energy, transportation, medical and information technologies so had more than a passing association with various battery technologies.  Each technology offers superior performance within a given envelope of recharge life, recharge time, total power draw, rate of power draw, weight, and cost among other parameters. 

There was at that time no clear "winner" for anything but one given application and I presume that is also true today.  But the battery technology was far from the most important factor when selecting a battery technology for a given application.  The efficiency of the consuming device was far more important so that is where the discussion should start on what the "right" battery technology should be for battery operated power tools.  The power draw characteristics of the common brush style DC motor is vastly different from the power draw characteristics of the C12 drill, for example.  The C12 uses a three phase AC brushless motor that is way more efficient in the drill application (others likely as well) than the brush style DC motor.  To get the most from this efficiency advantage it is necessary to carefully match the battery technology to this specific power draw profile.  Change the draw profile (saw vs drill for example) and the designer might well select a different battery technology.

What seems to be at play in the big box store wars appears to be a consumer rush to Li battery technology as "superior" in and of itself.  It is for some profiles, but not for all.  Add to this the vast difference in manufacturing quality between battery manufacturer "A" and "B" within batteries of the same technology and it really becomes a muddy picture.  From my POV the best bet is to stay with a quality manufacturer using quality engineering principles in the design choices when making a selection.  Stay away from those who allow marketing principles and price to overwhelm these two.  Hope this helps.

Jerry

Jerry,

Beatifully stated. Thanks.

Bob

 

[Dan Lyke]

There was at that time no clear "winner" for anything but one given application and I presume that is also true today.  But the battery technology was far from the most important factor when selecting a battery technology for a given application.

I was working on a bike shed last weekend, disassembling the portions that were still screwed together after a storm blew the whole thing down and we hurriedly moved it, re-assembling in a different configuration in a new location. The task was basically hours of pulling screws out of 4x8 plywood panels screwed to 2x2s, and then screwing those panels back into other 2x2s in a different place. In the process I went through several battery charges. In each case, the other battery was recharged before I ran the new one out.

And the drill seems as light to me as my corded drill.

So, yeah, what you said: tell the engineers what you want to accomplish with the drill that the current device doesn't do, and let them figure out the best way to do that. Let the use case dictate the technologies, and not vice-versa.

(And I'm not just saying that 'cause I've learned the hard way several ways to destroy LiIon batteries simply through usage patterns that NiCad and NiMH batteries survive just fine.)

 

[Greg_R]

As far as drill and impact drivers, look at Panasic. they make the batteries for Festool, plus my 12v will out last anyone's 18v/24v DeWhatisiworth on Site. Though the C12 looks nice, IMHO NiCd will keep a Charge in COLD or HOT, and at 1/2 the price....

I've been using the Li-ion Panasonic impact driver and drill (driver is brushless) since April '07 and they are excellent tools.  Here is my review of both tools.  You'll often see Panasonic's battery technology in other products (the Makita set looks _very_ similar).

 

[Jerry Work]

I don't want to go too far with this dialog as all design engineers all over the globe have access to the same or very similar technologies.  They also are given a price point to meet and a time frame within which to land a product on the shelves or retail stores in different countries.  Those parameters result in vastly different choices, some good, some perhaps not.  A case in point is that Makita is no longer Makita.  The blue tools still seem to be made to high quality standards competitive with the better offerings by others.  The white tools seem to be driven largely by meeting predetermined price points.  The results seem mixed. 

I don't like to paint with a broad brush based on anecdotal evidence, but I have had a perplexing experience with the white impact driver and flash light.  Perhaps it was just a bad batch, but I have been through three flash lights and all fail in the same way - they go on for a while and then randomly simply go out.  Recycle the switch and the cycle repeats.  The forth replacement is on the way.  It is one of those unexpected issues with what once was a really good quality name.  I have never experienced anything like this with the blue tools.  The white ones appear to be made in China.

Fortunately I am dealing with a good retailer who is replacing them with no hassle.  I can't imagine what the run around might be if I had to wind my way through Makita USA with these issues.

Jerry

 

[semenza]

Hi,

      Interesting. I have been wondering about the differing Makita colors. I have seen at least two if not three or four color patterns.

Seth

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Jerry has "been there" as a head of R&D, and makes some very good points for all to consider.  From my work I know that quality aircraft parts are being made in China and other countries that most people don't normally associate with quality.  (Nor do I at this time.)  What is most important is quality, in both design and manufacture, and that is the responsibility of management.  The few Makita tools I have are the blue ones, and I am satisfied.  I am a bit surprised that the owners of the Makita brand are willing to risk damage to a good reputation through production of poor quality tools in white color (aren't they actually white and blue?) at the same time they are apparently trying to compete directly against Festool, Mafell et al. with a guide rail system?

Dave R.

 

[Woodenfish]

Jerry, the white Makita tools are marketed toward amateur's and DIY'ers.
In your hands they scream, "we're not worthy, we're not worthy!"

 

[wcmlutz]

Actually, of the three tools that have died on me. Two were makitas I burned up the motor on a 10 year old sporatically used reciprocating saw and a brand new hammer drill. I returned the hammer drill to the store and bought a Bosch ;D.Much better drill, but it also was more expensive. I needed a smaller hammer drill to get into a tight space, so I bought a Skil drill figuring I wasn't going to use it that much. The other choice was the makita that I had previously killed. I burned up the motor on the skil too. It was within the warranty period so I got a free replacement from skil. I do have some hard walls. Personally, I am now a little leary of Makita. I expected better. If the ancient Makita 1/4 sheet sander would kick the bucket, I could get a RTS400.

Mike

 

[John Stegall]

I have a very old Makita 9v that just refuses to die. It is the short squatty battery, not the long one. My Hitachi impact driver (12v) has awesome power, is now two years old and still doing great. I have used Prime Cell to rebuild batteries in the past and their site now states why they will not rebuild LI.
No experience with them but have seen complaints as well as raves on FHB's site.
john

 

[richard.selwyn]

Re Makita
I've noticed that they've launched a cheap red Makita range over in the UK.  I guess its like your white range in the US.  At the price I doubt it would stand up to professional use.
I have a blue Makita impact drill, which I find excellent -and the light seems to work.  The Makita only has one battery and it is a bore when it runs flat.  I keep ogling the new LiIon ones but have so far resisted.
A long time ago I bought a Makita cordless drill, made in England.  I found it to be so "gutless" that I gave it to a friend for occasional light use. Of no real interest but I have the TDK, the CDD and the C12 cordless drills - I guess I have too many Festools, but they generally (apart from my dislike of the jigsaw) seem to bet the job done better than the competition.

 

[gkeas]

Re Makita
I've noticed that they've launched a cheap red Makita range over in the UK.  I guess its like your white range in the US.  At the price I doubt it would stand up to professional use.
I have a blue Makita impact drill, which I find excellent -and the light seems to work.  The Makita only has one battery and it is a bore when it runs flat.  I keep ogling the new LiIon ones but have so far resisted.
A long time ago I bought a Makita cordless drill, made in England.  I found it to be so "gutless" that I gave it to a friend for occasional light use. Of no real interest but I have the TDK, the CDD and the C12 cordless drills - I guess I have too many Festools, but they generally (apart from my dislike of the jigsaw) seem to bet the job done better than the competition.

I used to have Dewalt 18v stuff (as an installer), but got into sales, and bought a set of Ryobi 18v tools that I used for years. 

I started my own company a couple of years ago, and started installing again and I have been using the Ryobi junk.  I got 1 new Lithium battery for the Ryobi stuff when they first came out, and it was like having brand new tools. 

I then made the mistake of buying a buddy of mine the Makita 18v Lithium Drill and Impact driver kit (he helped me out on a big project, and his crappy Rigid stuff wasn't holding up).  That was the clincher.

I just bought the Makita LXT407 kit that has the hammer drill, impact, recip saw, and light (HD for $369) and it is REALLY GREAT.  The LED's work very, VERY well, and the tools are very light, but still powerful.  I highly recommend them.  If Festool had something similar, I would have bought it, but they don't.

 

[Bru]

I had the opposite happen to me. Used 12volt Dewalt drill/drivers burned up 3, went to 18 volt chuck got sloppy in a couple of months. Picked up a Rigid drill driver and then the impact driver and haven't had a problem since. I've read a lot of bad things about rigid but love there hand tools. Burned up a Milwaukee 1/2 inch hole hawg and replaced it with a rigid, great drill. I'm tough on drills and drivers, I was in the storage building construction business - tek screws and metal are tough on cordless drivers. Can't say I am impressed with all there tools, I have a 12" compound miter saw on portable stand. Not impressed with the cut quality, I'm trying different blades to see if that will help. Dewalt blade sucks, got a 2 pack for $50 on sale at Home Depot, got what I paid for. Probably will try a Forrest Chop Master next or a SystiMatic. Any suggestions would help. Seems like deflection of the blade is my problem. Have tried cutting speed and technique not getting    anything close to a good cut, cut not square when cross cutting, miters looked dished when mitering. Can't wait for the Kapex might just give up and sell the saw. Hurry up Kapex please I'm in need...... :'(

 

[Warrior]

Try the Freud Ultimate Cutoff blade. I prefer it to the Chopmaster blades that I have. its like butta

 

[Bru]

Thanks Eiji I will check Freud out...

 

[honeydoman]

BRU,

I have been using the forrest chopmasters for some time and I an very pleased with the cut quaility.  watch cutting mdf takes a toll on the blades. have 2 so I can send out and get the other one sharpened at forrest.

 

[Bru]

Thanks honeydokreg I looked at Freud as Eiji suggested cost $125. I use WWII on my table saw and love it, Chopmaster is less expensive than the Freud I was surprised. (only a few bucks)  I'm very disappointed in the saw, think a 12" blade might have a bit more deflection than a 10". Had a 10" Makita miter saw but gave it to my son in law when I got the Rigid 12" SCMS. I think instead of putting another $125 in a blade, I'll sell it and use my TS 55 or my Table Saw. Festool has spoiled me when it comes to quality and actuate cuts. I hate pouring money into something I questioning the quality of. I think either saw will do the work for now. Thanks again for the blade suggestion, but I think I've talked myself into a Kapex (when they get here). I just love Festools dust collection hard to imagine a SCMS with good dust collection.  They have to be the dirtiest saw in any shop.