On site cabinetry

F

fshanno

Member
Joined
Sep 20, 2007
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1,064
There have been 2 cabinetry classes.  I attended the one in Vegas.  There's Kreg's article in This Is Carpentry.  There was a brief but interesting discussion of the merits of on site cabinetry on the comments section. 

So now the rubber meets the road, time to fish or cut bait, time to put my money where my mouth is or to state it in more colorful terms, time to **** or get off the pot. 

I've got a kitchen to do.  It has a  island and about 27' of wall and base cabinets.  Built in ovens, built in fridg, warming tray.  The setup seems tailor made for this concept.  I've got a 22x22 carport.  I've got a huge 19x25 dining/family room to work and stage in. 

I've got everything I need except a good SCMS.  I've got a 55, parallel guides, an MFT, a Domino, basically all the stuff we used in the cabinet class.  I've very comfortable with building the cases in the manner.

Anybody want to talk about it?
 
Hi Frank,

Although I have never built a kitchen on site. I have done several good sized built-ins. I have also built a `back bar` with counter, shelves and cabinets. I have chose to both make & not make the doors.

I have found that I can get doors made at a price that justifies me not making them. For the bar, I made the doors, due to some some custom details that were needed.

I live out in the sticks. My average job is ~2 hours away from me. As such one of the first things I take into consideration is my "commute" time. When I convert my gas into time, I sit behind a windshield at a cost of $10/hour. Saving 2 trips to a job site, gives me back a full day. Therefore I try to do as much work in my own shop as I possibly can. I blank out my sheet goods, do all possible glue ups, sanding, and finishing.

There is not just the commute to think about in this process, I would be the same way if the job was just down the street. In my own shop I have much more control,....... over everything, especially interruptions! There are no plumbers greasy paws checking out how smooth my sanding is or checking to see if my urethane is dry yet (yes, it HAS happened)  No customer with their 1000 niggling questions. I can actually get some work done!

If I am acting as the general contractor on the job I don't as much care, because I am already there and generally set up. (The plumber will still piss me off though).

Having done as much as I can in my own shop, lets me get in and out of the customers hours in a much shorter period of time. Momma likes the in & out  [wink]. I just show up with my carcasse parts, and from there it is 95% assembly.

"Because you can, doesn't mean you should". My goal here is not to talk you out of doing a kitchen 'on-site'. Just keep in mind that it is not an all-or-nothing, here or there proposition.
 
I do as much as I can in the shop, but then most of my work is fairly local.  I had to haul the Kapex on site (and upstairs) today and wished I could have avoided it) but then all the Festool equipment makes working on site a pleasure.  A TS and some rails, a couple of saw horses (I just bought a new pair of metal folding ones from Axminster in the UK - the fourth different pair -  I've got a thing about quick and easy set up and don't like hauling around an MFT as it is too big and too heavy for me) and you can not only get some work done but you can also impress the client (and the other trades - including those plumbers).

You mentioned no SCMS - is that I plea for encouragement to buy a Kapex?  If so - do it.

Richard
 
harry_ said:
Hi Frank,

Although I have never built a kitchen on site. I have done several good sized built-ins. I have also built a `back bar` with counter, shelves and cabinets. I have chose to both make & not make the doors.

I have found that I can get doors made at a price that justifies me not making them. For the bar, I made the doors, due to some some custom details that were needed.

I live out in the sticks. My average job is ~2 hours away from me. As such one of the first things I take into consideration is my "commute" time. When I convert my gas into time, I sit behind a windshield at a cost of $10/hour. Saving 2 trips to a job site, gives me back a full day. Therefore I try to do as much work in my own shop as I possibly can. I blank out my sheet goods, do all possible glue ups, sanding, and finishing.

There is not just the commute to think about in this process, I would be the same way if the job was just down the street. In my own shop I have much more control,....... over everything, especially interruptions! There are no plumbers greasy paws checking out how smooth my sanding is or checking to see if my urethane is dry yet (yes, it HAS happened)  No customer with their 1000 niggling questions. I can actually get some work done!

If I am acting as the general contractor on the job I don't as much care, because I am already there and generally set up. (The plumber will still piss me off though).

Having done as much as I can in my own shop, lets me get in and out of the customers hours in a much shorter period of time. Momma likes the in & out  [wink]. I just show up with my carcasse parts, and from there it is 95% assembly.

"Because you can, doesn't mean you should". My goal here is not to talk you out of doing a kitchen 'on-site'. Just keep in mind that it is not an all-or-nothing, here or there proposition.
Click to expand...

Thanks Harry,

That's just the kind of sensible input I'm looking for.  I can get all enthused about stuff and sort of spin off into never land.  So to sum it up....

1.  I've got to have very good control over the work area or there will be big problems.  Maybe I could partition an area using some kind of portable barrier?  It's got to addressed somehow.  Safety could be a concern as well.

2.  Travel expense could end up making the process unprofitable so I've got to get a good handle on that.  I've got to manage the to-and-from's or it will quickly get out of hand.  The customers home is 6 miles away.

One thing is of great interest to me.  Do you do frameless cabinets?  If so how do you do your system holes and edge banding in the shop vs. in the field?

Festool USA is promoting this idea as well they should.  Maybe this job is out there on the fringe of feasibility but it's what I've got.  I figure that a good solid realistic discussion here on the FOG is a good thing.

Thanx again.
 
richard.selwyn said:
I do as much as I can in the shop, but then most of my work is fairly local.  I had to haul the Kapex on site (and upstairs) today and wished I could have avoided it) but then all the Festool equipment makes working on site a pleasure.  A TS and some rails, a couple of saw horses (I just bought a new pair of metal folding ones from Axminster in the UK - the fourth different pair -  I've got a thing about quick and easy set up and don't like hauling around an MFT as it is too big and too heavy for me) and you can not only get some work done but you can also impress the client (and the other trades - including those plumbers).

You mentioned no SCMS - is that I plea for encouragement to buy a Kapex?  If so - do it.

Richard
Click to expand...

The Kapex is the way to go alright.  This just might tip me. 

This is a pretty big deal.  We'll be completely gutting about 900 sq. ft. and then hanging drywall and trimming it out.  We're looking to do a sort of pseudo-Prairie style thing with lots of QS oak.  I'll be on site for a couple of months and I plan dedicate at least one MFT for the duration. 

I do need some new horses.  Mine are not folding and pretty rough.  That has to go on the list. 

So how about this scenario.  Cases on sight and face frames and doors and drawers in the shop?  I've had good luck attaching face frames with Dominoes and with pocket screws so I feel that could be done easily in the field.

Another question.  Does anybody have an idea for a portable, inexpensive case clamp?  Not for applying pressure for gluing but just to assure squareness during assembly.  The cases will be prefinished ply assembled using butt joints with Dominoes and screws.  No glue.  It would be nice to be able to lock a case down in a squaring clamp before driving the screws.  Maybe 20 to 30 pounds of pressure is all that would be needed.  I've been thinking about a giant version of the band clamps used for picture frames and the like.
 
Harry- I charge for windshield time, whether they know it or not.

I try to do as much as possible on site.  I have 1400 sq/ft of work space at home but, the dog, the almost 5 year old, the almost one year, the old lady, too many distractions.

I wouldn't build a kitchen that size on-site, you are only 6 miles from home that ain't nothing.
 
Check my thinking. 

I seems like less material handling to just have the sheet goods delivered to the job site and then construct the cases there.  Slide a sheet off the stack onto the cutting table and get busy.  Dolly completed cases to a safe temporary resting place on site.  Very little lifting, no loading or unloading.  Less chance of anything getting dropped or otherwise banged around. 

I don't have any kind of edge banding equipment (except an old iron that my wife handed down to me).  I don't have room in my shop for anything fancy so whatever I get would have to be stow-able (and not too expensive).  So with the understanding that whatever technology I use for edge banding will be portable, what difference does it make where I do the edge banding?  This begs another question.  Has anyone used the peel and stick edge banding such as the Fastcap FastEdge?  The prefinished birch is $173 for 250'.  Pricey.  Is it worth it?  I suppose it's time to start thinking about an MFK 700.

I don't have a line boring machine and as with the edge banding, I don't have room or funds right now for anything large.  So it looks like it's the good old LR32 for the system holes.  That being the case I submit the same question.  Does it make any real difference where I bore the system holes?
 
If you are going to be there for a couple months, wouldn't it make more sense to build the cabinets at home and deliver them when you are ready to install, vs storing the ply and tools and eventually cabinets on sight where they are going to be in the way and possibly damaged?  I am guessing you are going to need a lot of that space for drywall,lumber, and other general carpentry tools and maybe have a bunch of other subs working in the area as well.

The only way I would consider it is if I planned to have most of the tools I was building my cabinets with at the site and planning to leave them there for the duration.
 
I think you are trying to stretch and do something a bit beyond your means.

Just have them built by someone else and focus on the rest of the work.
 
fshanno said:
Check my thinking. 

I seems like less material handling to just have the sheet goods delivered to the job site and then construct the cases there.   Slide a sheet off the stack onto the cutting table and get busy.  Dolly completed cases to a safe temporary resting place on site.  Very little lifting, no loading or unloading.  Less chance of anything getting dropped or otherwise banged around. 

I don't have any kind of edge banding equipment (except an old iron that my wife handed down to me).  I don't have room in my shop for anything fancy so whatever I get would have to be stow-able (and not too expensive).   So with the understanding that whatever technology I use for edge banding will be portable, what difference does it make where I do the edge banding?  This begs another question.  Has anyone used the peel and stick edge banding such as the Fastcap FastEdge?  The prefinished birch is $173 for 250'.  Pricey.  Is it worth it?  I suppose it's time to start thinking about an MFK 700.

I don't have a line boring machine and as with the edge banding, I don't have room or funds right now for anything large.  So it looks like it's the good old LR32 for the system holes.  That being the case I submit the same question.  Does it make any real difference where I bore the system holes?
Click to expand...

Run, don't walk away from that stuff.  I used some on my last job and it is the biggest regret I have.  I used some of the unfinished alder for cases and there were so many places where the edge of it started to peel off I lost count.  I also used some pre-finished maple for shelving and I'm having to go to the customer's house today to replace those.  I bought the product thinking it would save some time and it has ended up doing just the opposite.
 
What do you mean lose your shirt?

You charge for what you do period. If you price it right you will make money and make a better product that last forever and never have a call back ever.

I guess we just make different things. I do not build the type of cabinets that have glue on banding, it is not my thing.

Of course if you bid the job for banding than you may screw yourself. The clients I have bid cabinets for are not going for stick on banding nor do I want to ever ever get into that.

It is the only way I have ever made a cabinet or shelf etc, I have always T&G the face of all shelves and and always use full face frames or at least solid wood edging.

That may be why when I see these low prices here I shake my head. You get what you pay for. If you have to go back one time let alone 3 times, what is that worth, I say about 50.00 an hour min for getting in the truck going to the site and  than peeling off the crap and re putting it on and hoping you do not have to come back again, when I  could be in the shop cranking stuff out.

I have heard many times over the years guys complaining  and having to go back to fix the banding, never once about having to repair a solid wood edging.

I think we are at a different mind set on what types of things we build, which is fine.
 
Instead of hardwood edge banding, has anyone tried using baltic birch ply with exposed edges?  It looks attractive and would save time, albeit with a higher cost for the ply.  I know that I would pay more for the ply if I did not have to edge band.
 
Yes that looks nice, but you need to use a very high quality for that to work out well. Plus many, many clients will not like that look.
 
nickao said:
What do you mean lose your shirt?

You charge for what you do period. If you price it right you will make money and make a better product that last forever and never have a call back ever....
Click to expand...

You're right, you'd have to adjust your pricing and it might very well take you out of the running.  The extra time for clamping is out of the question for me.  But add to that the time to setup the bits, rout, cleanup all the dust, all the clamps, glue, cleanup of the glue and clamping time.  In the context of this thread (on-site cabinet construction) it's not going to happen.  I'm not saying it isn't a nice detail, it is.

nickao said:
Yes that looks nice, but you need to use a very high quality for that to work out well. Plus many, many clients will not like that look.
Click to expand...

I completely agree.  I believe Euro ply would work but it's spendy stuff.  I don't think I'd be able to sell that look either. 
 
fshanno said:
Check my thinking. 

I seems like less material handling to just have the sheet goods delivered to the job site and then construct the cases there.   Slide a sheet off the stack onto the cutting table and get busy.  Dolly completed cases to a safe temporary resting place on site.  Very little lifting, no loading or unloading.  Less chance of anything getting dropped or otherwise banged around. 

I don't have any kind of edge banding equipment (except an old iron that my wife handed down to me).  I don't have room in my shop for anything fancy so whatever I get would have to be stow-able (and not too expensive).   So with the understanding that whatever technology I use for edge banding will be portable, what difference does it make where I do the edge banding?  This begs another question.  Has anyone used the peel and stick edge banding such as the Fastcap FastEdge?  The prefinished birch is $173 for 250'.  Pricey.  Is it worth it?  I suppose it's time to start thinking about an MFK 700.

I don't have a line boring machine and as with the edge banding, I don't have room or funds right now for anything large.  So it looks like it's the good old LR32 for the system holes.  That being the case I submit the same question.  Does it make any real difference where I bore the system holes?
Click to expand...

I used about 200' of the Cherry FastEdge for a recent project and didn't have any issues with it.  I was impressed with how well it stuck to the plywood.  I pulled off some test strips and it took chunks of the plywood with it.  I haven't had any issues with it peeling off yet and the project has been finished and instaled for a few months now.  I am planning on using it on another project I will be starting soon.
 
twang120 said:
Instead of hardwood edge banding, has anyone tried using baltic birch ply with exposed edges?  It looks attractive and would save time, albeit with a higher cost for the ply.  I know that I would pay more for the ply if I did not have to edge band.
Click to expand...

Have you heard of Kerf Design?  I think it's pretty cool stuff.  All ply with edges exposed.  It's awesome plywood.  Nothing like it locally for me.
 
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