Opinions on the Milwaukee M12/M18 cordless sawsall?
- Thread starter hdv
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Milwaukee first came out with the 9ah and 12ah for their high demand tools. I think the marketing behind them was "HD". Then they came out with the 3ah, 6ah and 8ah high output batteries ("HO") which also met the needs of a high demand tool (the 3ah a little less so). With a tool like that, used to it's fullest, you're typically looking any 8ah and higher to get decent runtime and full power. But it will wear you out lugging this thing around cutting 3" branches! And the exact differences in discharge capacity between HD and HO I cannot recall. It probably boils down to which cells they used in each.
I would start with the hackzall. That (with the correct blade) will handle pruning tasks and pallets. If you find a need for something bigger, get the unimog. While they are similar in operation, they are meant for different things. So first take stock in what you need it to do now. If you later decide you want to demo half your house, get the big boy.
I would start with the hackzall. That (with the correct blade) will handle pruning tasks and pallets. If you find a need for something bigger, get the unimog. While they are similar in operation, they are meant for different things. So first take stock in what you need it to do now. If you later decide you want to demo half your house, get the big boy.
hdv
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Something good came up. A Milwaukee dealer a few kilometers from here offered to let me do real-life testing of the different saws. That is great service! Now I can find out if the lighter saw will be up to the primary tasks I have in mind for it. I am looking forward to it.
[member=21249]RKA[/member]: you are quite right. To be honest I was hoping to prevent having to buy another tool later on. But slowly I am getting to understand that these saws really are too different to be considered "the same, but with a bit more power".
[member=21249]RKA[/member]: you are quite right. To be honest I was hoping to prevent having to buy another tool later on. But slowly I am getting to understand that these saws really are too different to be considered "the same, but with a bit more power".
I've never tried the M12 Hackzall, but own the M18 One Key reciprocating saw and hated it after pulling the trigger, before even making a single cut with it. The trigger is not controllable at slow speed for starting a cut. In other words it is too fast. I have an old brushed Makita reciprocating saw, and it is my favorite as the trigger allows slow speeds to start a cut. I'll sell the One Key recip someday.
When it comes to the 18 volt batteries there are times bigger is better, but often smaller is less fatiguing. For impacts and drills I prefer the 2.0Ah size range, and switch to a 5.0Ah when using a 6 1/2" circular saw or other power hungry tool as it makes a big difference. The 9.0Ah is great for even larger tools, but very heavy. I'd save the 12.0Ah battery for their chainsaw, chopsaw (SCMS), or tablesaw. The new 6.0Ah, 8.0Ah, etc, really only come into play if you have the newest Super Charger with is sold separately. The Super Charger will not rapid charge the older batteries, IE: 5.0Ah, 9.0Ah, etc.
I am heavily vested in the M12 lineup, and other than the stupid little gutless grinder, have been happy with all my other purchases. The M12 installation driver is working great for me. Having the ability to put a couple 2" bits on it is really nice. The switch for forward reverse is far preferable over a regular impact type switch. Seems like I am always pulling the trigger and nothing happens because the switch got knocked into the half way point. Much prefer the switch on top.
The M12 impacts and drills do just about anything you can do with an M18, other than 4"+ lags or using a 4" hole saw. I routinely drive thousands of screws up to 3 1/8" GRK #10 screws with an M12 impact, and drill 3" holes using an M12 drill. I'd much rather carry an M12 impact in my vest, than a larger M18 or 18v Makita (I have both battery platforms). Surge impacts ROCK!
When it comes to the 18 volt batteries there are times bigger is better, but often smaller is less fatiguing. For impacts and drills I prefer the 2.0Ah size range, and switch to a 5.0Ah when using a 6 1/2" circular saw or other power hungry tool as it makes a big difference. The 9.0Ah is great for even larger tools, but very heavy. I'd save the 12.0Ah battery for their chainsaw, chopsaw (SCMS), or tablesaw. The new 6.0Ah, 8.0Ah, etc, really only come into play if you have the newest Super Charger with is sold separately. The Super Charger will not rapid charge the older batteries, IE: 5.0Ah, 9.0Ah, etc.
I am heavily vested in the M12 lineup, and other than the stupid little gutless grinder, have been happy with all my other purchases. The M12 installation driver is working great for me. Having the ability to put a couple 2" bits on it is really nice. The switch for forward reverse is far preferable over a regular impact type switch. Seems like I am always pulling the trigger and nothing happens because the switch got knocked into the half way point. Much prefer the switch on top.
The M12 impacts and drills do just about anything you can do with an M18, other than 4"+ lags or using a 4" hole saw. I routinely drive thousands of screws up to 3 1/8" GRK #10 screws with an M12 impact, and drill 3" holes using an M12 drill. I'd much rather carry an M12 impact in my vest, than a larger M18 or 18v Makita (I have both battery platforms). Surge impacts ROCK!
hdv
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I am just back from the test session. Wow! I sure am glad I got the opportunity to do this. I even got to test the M28 monster. That thing is heavy! [scared] I doubt there's much it wouldn't be able to do, if you have the strength to hold it for prolonged periods of time. [eek]
After that I tried the next one down they had, which was the M18 FSX Sawzall. I really like that machine! It surely is not lightweight by any means, but much easier to handle than the M28. Lot's of power and not as unruly as I had expected. The adjustable shoe was nice too.
Then it was the M18 CSX. Still a nice machine, but if I had to choose I definitely would buy the FSX. There's nothing specific that makes this machine not as good as the FSX, but the FSX has a much nicer feel to it.
On to the M18 FHZ. If I were to buy just one reciprocating saw, then it would be this one. It has enough power for most tasks. Cutting up timbers was no problem at all. Sure, it was only softwood (fir), but it handled that easily. Even the more thicker ones (I didn't measure them, but I would estimate they were about 80 mm). Cutting a piece of steel pipe was a bit harder, but if you don't try to push your way through it does so just fine. Just let the machine do the work. This machine has a different form factor and handles easier than the sawzall models.
They only had one M12 model, which was the M12 CHZ (this is one the FUEL types). Compared to the other machines it feels really light. The difference is really significant. It has a tiny stroke, which made me worry it would not be useful for things like pruning. But I tried it on a freshly cut branch of rowan about 45 mm thick and I was pleasantly surprised it cut through that quite easily. I did not expect that. I had a bit more trouble with a branch of beech of about the same thickness that had been cut a few weeks before, but it did cut that just fine too, just slower.
So, what did I end up buying? Well, I had serious trouble choosing whether I'd go for one all-round saw (M18 FHZ), or for the added comfort (but higher price tag) of both a lighter and a heavier saw. [embarassed] In the end the guy made me a very nice offer. If I were to buy the M12 FDD (the installers drill, which I wanted to buy anyway and which started this whole adventure), the M12 CHZ, and the M18 FSX, he would sell the FSX for the price of the FHZ (that's about €175 difference). The only catch was that he could not tell me when he would get new stock of the M18 FSX. I am not in a hurry, and thus took him up on his offer. [big grin]
So, I ended up with a whole different set of saws than I had in mind when I asked you guys for advise. And I still ended up with an additional battery platform. Ah, well. That's the problem of being a sucker for tools... you always end up buying more/better than you planned to do. I am sure you all recognise that problem! [tongue]
After that I tried the next one down they had, which was the M18 FSX Sawzall. I really like that machine! It surely is not lightweight by any means, but much easier to handle than the M28. Lot's of power and not as unruly as I had expected. The adjustable shoe was nice too.
Then it was the M18 CSX. Still a nice machine, but if I had to choose I definitely would buy the FSX. There's nothing specific that makes this machine not as good as the FSX, but the FSX has a much nicer feel to it.
On to the M18 FHZ. If I were to buy just one reciprocating saw, then it would be this one. It has enough power for most tasks. Cutting up timbers was no problem at all. Sure, it was only softwood (fir), but it handled that easily. Even the more thicker ones (I didn't measure them, but I would estimate they were about 80 mm). Cutting a piece of steel pipe was a bit harder, but if you don't try to push your way through it does so just fine. Just let the machine do the work. This machine has a different form factor and handles easier than the sawzall models.
They only had one M12 model, which was the M12 CHZ (this is one the FUEL types). Compared to the other machines it feels really light. The difference is really significant. It has a tiny stroke, which made me worry it would not be useful for things like pruning. But I tried it on a freshly cut branch of rowan about 45 mm thick and I was pleasantly surprised it cut through that quite easily. I did not expect that. I had a bit more trouble with a branch of beech of about the same thickness that had been cut a few weeks before, but it did cut that just fine too, just slower.
So, what did I end up buying? Well, I had serious trouble choosing whether I'd go for one all-round saw (M18 FHZ), or for the added comfort (but higher price tag) of both a lighter and a heavier saw. [embarassed] In the end the guy made me a very nice offer. If I were to buy the M12 FDD (the installers drill, which I wanted to buy anyway and which started this whole adventure), the M12 CHZ, and the M18 FSX, he would sell the FSX for the price of the FHZ (that's about €175 difference). The only catch was that he could not tell me when he would get new stock of the M18 FSX. I am not in a hurry, and thus took him up on his offer. [big grin]
So, I ended up with a whole different set of saws than I had in mind when I asked you guys for advise. And I still ended up with an additional battery platform. Ah, well. That's the problem of being a sucker for tools... you always end up buying more/better than you planned to do. I am sure you all recognise that problem! [tongue]
Excellent, sounds like it worked out really well! And you have a good retailer allowing you to demo near everything in the line.
As to the batteries, I gave up trying to consolidate years ago. There is always some other tool, better suited for the job or unique on a battery platform you don't have. In fact, despite having 6-7 different battery systems, I just ordered a cordless backpack sprayer on yet another unheard of battery system. *sigh*
As to the batteries, I gave up trying to consolidate years ago. There is always some other tool, better suited for the job or unique on a battery platform you don't have. In fact, despite having 6-7 different battery systems, I just ordered a cordless backpack sprayer on yet another unheard of battery system. *sigh*
Cheese
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hdv said:
Well good for you...you got the best of all worlds with that grouping. [smile]
Don't be fooled by the V28 Sawzall it's big and it's tough but it eats batteries like crazy. I actually have 2 of them, one in the shop and one in the garage for working on cars. I no longer use either one, I grab the 2720 instead because it cuts as well/fast as the V28 but it has 4-5 times the battery life. Here's the 2720 vs the V28 on the bottom.
[attachimg=1]
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Congrats on your purchase! I hope that you enjoy your M’s as much as I do! The good news (for me) about these batteries is that most (if not all) of the M18 kits come with battery chargers that accommodate both M12 and M18 batteries in the same charger. Unfortunately the M12’s only come with a charger that works for M12’s (those are all stored away).
I think for what you will be needing it for both are worthy choices but you never know what you might need it for in the future so I would go with the M18 Milwaukee sawzall .
hdv
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Today the installer's drill and the hackzall finally arrived. I haven't had the time yet to put them through their paces, but here's my first impression of the drill.
The balance and weight are great. I really like how this drill feels in hand. The forward/reverse button issue some mentioned is no issue to me. My hand is just a bit too small to reach the button on top without changing my grip, but I don't think that will detract from it's usability.
Despite all the plastic this drill does feel sturdy.
I don't know why, but I've always hated belt clips on drills. So that was removed as soon as I took it out of the box. It is attached with one screw, so not problems there. You can screw it back on either side of the handle if you prefer to do so.
The magnet on the front is strong enough to not lose bits or fasteners. The LED is powerful enough and aimed in such a manner that I think it will be quite useful in actual use.
There are two things that surprised me though. The first is that the 90 degree angle chuck rotates in the opposite direction as the drill itself. So when you use that chuck, forward is reverse and vice versa. I did not try this chuck during the demo, so I hadn't noticed before. No biggie, I will get used to it.
The other thing is that the hex chuck it too deep for my Wera bits (see photo).
[attachimg=1]
I tried several bits with it and noticed it does not really lock the bits. You can pull them out quite easily with your fingers, if they are long enough (the bits that is [wink] ). But it is not like the bits will fall out either. Wera rapidators on the other hand can't be pulled out of the chuck without using excessive force.
Some commented on the trigger not being "linear". That may be true. However, I already found that with a little Fingerspitzengefühl you can manipulate the speed quite well. So, while not optimal, this shouldn't keep anyone from choosing this drill either in my opinion.
I haven't tried the torque or how long the battery will last yet, but all in all I think I will be quite happy with this drill.
[Edit: the bit next to the drill is identical to the bit in the chuck]
The balance and weight are great. I really like how this drill feels in hand. The forward/reverse button issue some mentioned is no issue to me. My hand is just a bit too small to reach the button on top without changing my grip, but I don't think that will detract from it's usability.
Despite all the plastic this drill does feel sturdy.
I don't know why, but I've always hated belt clips on drills. So that was removed as soon as I took it out of the box. It is attached with one screw, so not problems there. You can screw it back on either side of the handle if you prefer to do so.
The magnet on the front is strong enough to not lose bits or fasteners. The LED is powerful enough and aimed in such a manner that I think it will be quite useful in actual use.
There are two things that surprised me though. The first is that the 90 degree angle chuck rotates in the opposite direction as the drill itself. So when you use that chuck, forward is reverse and vice versa. I did not try this chuck during the demo, so I hadn't noticed before. No biggie, I will get used to it.
The other thing is that the hex chuck it too deep for my Wera bits (see photo).
[attachimg=1]
I tried several bits with it and noticed it does not really lock the bits. You can pull them out quite easily with your fingers, if they are long enough (the bits that is [wink] ). But it is not like the bits will fall out either. Wera rapidators on the other hand can't be pulled out of the chuck without using excessive force.
Some commented on the trigger not being "linear". That may be true. However, I already found that with a little Fingerspitzengefühl you can manipulate the speed quite well. So, while not optimal, this shouldn't keep anyone from choosing this drill either in my opinion.
I haven't tried the torque or how long the battery will last yet, but all in all I think I will be quite happy with this drill.
[Edit: the bit next to the drill is identical to the bit in the chuck]
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How you hold the driver is different than a regular impact or drill. Put your thumb and forefinger pointing towards the tip of the drill/driver and use your middle finger for the trigger. Now hitting the button with your thumb doesn't require any grip readjustment.hdv said:
Oh and to continue your tool purchases in the M12 lineup you will definitely need a Surge impact. The M12 impacts are used by me 90% of the time, over an 18 volt.
Roachmill
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I just couldn't get on with the fact small wire bits almost disappear into the chuck and are a fiddle to get out. Quick change bits should be quick to change. Also, not physically holding the bit in place was a let-down. Wera Rapidapters are great in that they hold any kind of bit solidly and are easy to change bits but, for a drill that's meant to get in to tight spaces, I don't want to have to swap it in and out.
The Bosch Flexiclick won the battle between the two drills pretty easily. It's not as pretty but it works... and works well IMO.
The Bosch Flexiclick won the battle between the two drills pretty easily. It's not as pretty but it works... and works well IMO.
CarlsonCarpentry
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Roachmill said:
No impact driver or bit holder for drills are meant for those little 1” bits. The 1” bits are for chucked in bit holders. For chucking bits straight into drill/drivers you need 2” or larger bits.
Roachmill
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CarlsonCarpentry said:
Times must be a'changing as both my Bosch Flexiclick and Makita DDF083 take them in and out without blinking. The Trend and DeWalt snappy chucks I have also work really well.
Edit: the DDFs have Rapidapters in them and are a right faff with short bits. Oops, my apologies! The Flexiclicks hold them (and Centrotech bits) perfectly tight though - and that includes the right angle and offset chucks too.
hdv
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[member=50292]Peter_C[/member]: I know. For me, I can't even hold a drill in any other way. That is because my forefinger can't bend anymore. Several decades ago I had a nasty infection in the bones of the 2nd and 3rd digits of that finger. At one point my hand was even paralysed. It took more than a year to heal, and after that the bones were fused.
As fas as impact drivers are concerned, I have a very nice Makita that is getting seriously old. That thing just won't quit. I really hope there is no new impact driver in my near future. [big grin]
[member=70289]CarlsonCarpentry[/member]: That's new to me. I never knew about that. One learns something new every day. Thanks! I guess that means I have to buy a set of longer bits. [unsure]
Before I do that I'll try a trick I've used before. I must have a rare earth magnet of the right size somewhere. If I can find it I'll drop it in the chuck and see if that improves the situation.
As fas as impact drivers are concerned, I have a very nice Makita that is getting seriously old. That thing just won't quit. I really hope there is no new impact driver in my near future. [big grin]
[member=70289]CarlsonCarpentry[/member]: That's new to me. I never knew about that. One learns something new every day. Thanks! I guess that means I have to buy a set of longer bits. [unsure]
Before I do that I'll try a trick I've used before. I must have a rare earth magnet of the right size somewhere. If I can find it I'll drop it in the chuck and see if that improves the situation.
When I went to use my driver yesterday I realized you might not know about the secret feature. So here it is...Remove the 1/4" chuck, and insert your tip directly into the end of the 1/4" shaft. It already has a magnet for holding the bits, and it will hold a shorty bit. Happens to also make the tool shorter.hdv said:
Still my preference is to use 2" bit drivers, and the magnet on the front of the tool holds two 2" bit drivers. I typically carry 4-5 bits (T15, T25, #2 Phillips, flat blade, and other times a larger flat blade or larger #3 Phillips), but 2 bits are better than non on the tool itself.
hdv
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Yeah. I noticed that myself after you sent your previous post. But, as I would never use this machine as an impact driver anyway, because it just isn't an impact driver, I have dropped two small cylindrical rare-earth magnets in the chuck. Now the depth is perfect.
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Just a friendly heads up for anyone looking for an M12 hackzall.
We have a pretty sweet deal coming on an M12 FUEL (brushless) impact driver and hackzall kit starting on 7/1 for $100 off the current price.
Quantities will be limited, while supplies last.
Shane
We have a pretty sweet deal coming on an M12 FUEL (brushless) impact driver and hackzall kit starting on 7/1 for $100 off the current price.
Quantities will be limited, while supplies last.
Shane
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