Penny Wise and Pound Foolish: A Rant on Biased Tool Reviews

[Kev]

" Festools are a luxury that we indulge ourselves in, not a value proposition"

This is absolutely not true in my case.  Most of my Festool tools have saved me time, money, and health.  And, I am not a pro.

Well, I'd love to see how you quantified that they saved you the time and money doing hobby work to cover the significant cost premium over comparable tools.

Saving time doing "hobby work" is not something a person here has to justify - saving time is enough. A little free time in a day can make the difference between having a viable hobby and not having one. Using tools that reduce the amount of mess and cleanup time - along with reducing harmful airborne particles is not a luxury either, for some it's even a necessity.

A gold watch covered in diamonds is a luxury indulgence. A Festool sander that performs better than other sanders is a premium product ... seems some people get confused when differentiating.

Further on the topic of "indulgence" and being a hobbyist ... many of the people on this forum are not professionals (myself included). I hardly think you can call all of us indulgent for wanting to use fine tools. I'd consider myself both lazy and indulgent if I paid someone to do everything for me and just sat on my backside if I wasn't working ... but it'd be far cheaper!

For perspective - 5 billion people on this planet would consider owning a bookcase to be an indulgence ...

 

[jacko9]

My greatest fear is that when I die, my wife will sell all my tools for how much I said I spent on them!
[eek]

Mike

Well, if you finds out before you die, she might end up sending you to an early grave. [tongue]

I find this amusing only because my wife pays the bills (accountant in the family) and she never complains about my tool purchases but, when we got our pure bred German Shepard, I paid half of the cost in cash because she didn't think we should be paying over 1 thousand dollars for a "dog".

She loved that dog more than any of my tools!

Jack

 

[johninthecamper]

I can't count the times I've bought something to get something done and not saved any money by the time im done,but I have a tool(s) to show for my effort.effort is usually harder than writing a check, lessons learned are priceless

 

[dpeagles]

I bought cheap tools for a long time.  I finally got so frustrated, I went to woodcraft and spent a small fortune.  But now, I forgot about the cost and just marvel at why I waited so long.  I have a neighbor who scoffs at festool.  He is a builder.  Especially the Domino which he equated to a fancy biscuit cutter. ( I don't own a domino)  Well, some folks you'll never convince, but some will finally wake up, like I did. 

You do GET WHAT YOU PAY FOR>

I own the ts55
of1400
multiple tracks
parallel guides
1/2 sheet sander
ct36
mft
32lr drill system
etc

 

[wow]

This is not meant to be a defense of Sandor's article, but I know him personally from a former life. He's a nice guy, and a very talented woodworker. He also partly earns his living from his writing - both books and magazine articles.

I agree that the article could have been better, but in essence what he said was 'Festool is in a class by itself and doesn't belong with the rest of this crap'. OK, maybe he couldn't say that EXACTLY or he would lose his readers. Keep in mind that his article needs to be read and 'appreciated' by the vast majority of woodworkers (who tend to be mostly hobbyists with limited resources) or the magazine looses readers and he doesn't make a living.

Now to defend him for a minute:

I managed a company that sold $3,000 - $7,000 sanders (!!!) when I first learned about Festool. I bought a $3000 panel saw. And even though I had no problem with owning those for a hobby shop, I dismissed Festool completely for many years because i didn't 'get it'. I'm not sure WHAT pushed me over the edge, but once I started studying Festool in depth I really started to appreciate what they stood for and had to offer. And here I am...

Maybe he just needs to taste the green kool-aid to see how good it is, huh?

[big grin]

 

[Jaybolishes]

In the United States we are being overtaken by the homedepot and walmart mentality.  I do my best to not step foot there for many reasons.  Unfortunately the reviewer has to think of the majority of his readers.  The thing is festool users are such a small minority compared to the folks who just are used to buying new tools often because they break.  Buying a tool made by basically a slave from china or elsewhere has become normal and should be shunned.  Slavery hasn't gone away, it's simply been brought to places where we don't see it.  I like knowing I buy things from someone who was paid fairly and produces a high quality product.  I am a standing seam roofer, laundromat and apartment owner, not a woodworker for pay.   I flipped houses and all my apartments and it's just crazy how festool has made me a better woodworker.  The guys who do woodworking for a living I run into all the time at my lumber yard.  They all think festool is a flashy gimmic and laugh at the festool displays while they buy the slavemade junk they have grown accustomed too. Most of them drive brand new trucks with huge monthly payments while I drive used trucks I payed for with cash.  I think that's why I can afford festool, it's all about being sensible in what you buy. I'm not perfect at all by any means, but I do try and am aware.

 

[dpeagles]

So true, these god awful expensive trucks.  Now that to me is a waste of money.  I did HVAC for years.  So many people would complain about the prices we charged.  They just didn't "value" our service.  One lady complained about the price of a new thermostat.  (one of few calls where the problem was -the thermostat)  I looked at her stove and said "how much was that stove?"....her response-"$10,000"...that really made me shake my head.

The Walmart/Home depot mentality is sad.  For some stuff, yes cheaper is better.  But if you want good results but good tools.

It is sad how many former "quality" tool makers have sold out their name in order to sell by the thousands at one of the big box stores.

 

[greg mann]

I get annoyed with these reviews on two levels. First, by the quote ascribed to to the author he pretty much discards the RTS as not being worthy of consideration, solely because of price. A few sentences about its obvious superiority to the serious user are warranted. Something like; "If you're willing to pay the price for the quality, productivity, ergonomics, etc. then this is a great tool. If not, we can talk about the others." Or; "There's the RTS and then Tere's the rest." Oh, I know I am asking for too much.

Secondly, I believe a few of these reviewers are falling behind the times and are coasting on the knowledge they gathered a decade ago and are not putting in the work to stay up to date. I am pretty sure Sandor Nagyszalancy has published a recent article or two where he was shown using a Stanley D-handle router. Hey, nothing wrong with loving an old tool but it makes me wonder about his qualifications to evaluate up-to-date equivalents.

Scott writes, correctly, that these guys are writing for a certain demographic. True, but a reviewers's job is to inform, and why even mention a tool unless you are really going to do so? You are doing your reader a disservice if you don't do a thorough review, and personal bias towards Festool aside, you can't sum up the RTS in one sentence, especially one where the major emphasis is that it is too expensive for any further consideration. A far better approach would be to write, "One might wonder why a sander that is so much more expensive than the others even exists. Well, let's look at what it has to offer....."

I know that is not going to happen. But as others have said, on this side of the pond it is: Price Point 1st, 2nd, and 3rd.

I remember a statement by a Mercedes executive from 20 years ago: "In America people buy our cars for the wrong reason. They use them to take their daughter to dance lessons. In Lebanon they use them for taxis."

 

[Timtool]

It would be nice to include a moral value as well in tool reviews, is it moral to buy a $30 sander that was made in China just because they employ modern slaves?

Just yesterday i saw a tv report about people in France struggling to meet ends and having €0 in the bank, and i was feeling really bad for them. But while the single mom with her daughter were unpacking their groceries, which was nothing but expensive brands of food you see on TV and prepared food dishes, they were interviewing them and you could see a gigantic flat screen tv playing in the back... These people all of their disposable income goes to stuff made in china that will break every 4 years.

I don't really struggle anymore and my business is going well, yet my TV is the first color tv my parents bought in the early 90's, not even a wide screen... It was an expensive model but i find the quality of image better than most flat screen TV's i see at other peoples homes. And funny thing is that most of my friends or sister are now at their second or third TV since they switched to LED, Plasma etc...
When they buy something it's based on price, they see the Festool prices and think i am mad. We will see in the end. who has the best laugh!

 

[ToolHutt]

Interesting rant.
Before making a major purchase (cars, tools, appliances, tv, computers, etc) I like to do a little research.
The internet and magazines are good places to start from. But in the end what matters for me is value and reliability.
I've often read about the cost of Festool tools. Many reviewers do a well balanced job of evaluating features without getting hung up on prices. Others, sadly, are driven by who sponsors their magazine. Bottom line - don't solely rely on the reviews. Get info from actual users.
If you don't need or want to pay Festool prices there are plenty of cheaper options.
For me, I need a reliable car and machine tools to make a living. So I drive a German car and use Festool tools.

 

[Tinker]

I found out nearly 70 years ago (I am only 39 but have packed a lot of experience into those 39 years  8)) that cheap ain't cheap.
I no longer make a living with my tools, but the only cheapies I buy are if they are meant for no more than a once or twice and throw away.
when I was in construction, i bought only Milwaukee.  Now, I have been drinking the green cool aid, I am loaded with systainers in my wood shop and they are loaded with green and blue toys. They do what I expect them to do.
Tinker

 

[RC]

The benefits of high-end tools to a hobbyist can be measured just as well as professional benefits - they are just different in nature.

For a professional the benefits will obviously revolve around productivity benefits be it then speed, accuracy, capability over other similar tools, replacement speed, service, support, etc.

For a hobbyist the benefits are different because we usually don't do woodworking for a living - that money and efficiency benefits come from elsewhere in our respective bread-and-butter fields.

In my case for example (and yours will definitely vary) the driving benefit of Festools is the efficient, clean storage - call it smallerizing like in one of the Festool videos.

I live in a row house without a heated garage or other dry work space so I didn't do any tinkering for almost 15 years after moving from my parents house which had a nice heated workshop to use.

I stumbled on the Festool Precisio saw and a stack of other Festools when our kitchen installer was trimming the cupboards to size and realized that this is the first 'foldable' small space sawing solution that I have seen in my search for 15 years for a high enough quality tool that I would want to use. I've used high-end stationary tools in shop class in school and my grandfather was a carpenter/electrician with whom I built things since I could hold a hammer in his shop with proper tools so I don't accept just any piece of junk the Borg throws our way. 

After this incident I begun looking into Festool as a make and actually begun reading up on them here in FOG and other places on the net. Two years later I needed to build a fence door that required some routing and since I didn't own a router at the time I decided to give Festool a try and got an OF1400. After using it and being totally blown out of the water comparing it to my dads old Bosch router I was sold. The fact that it came in a nice Systainer which is convenient to store on a shelf in my wardrobe was the enabling factor of me even purchasing that tool in the first place.

[attachimg=#]

I begun doing more and more of little fix-this and build-that projects around the house and when it came time to rebuild our deck I used that as an excuse to acquire the TS55 and rails to trim the deck sides and do some garden furniture. My wife liked the end result and the fact that the tools got put away after each day of working in those neat boxes that she asked me if Festool made other tools that store in those boxes as well and if I would like to replace my oddment of inherited tools with Festool ones.

So long story short I've replaced every tool I had with a Festool if they make a replacement for it and acquired a bunch of other Festools for tasks I didn't have a tool at all (Domino, Shinex, RO90) and they all store more-or less nicely in either my workroom or our downstairs walk-in closet and enable me to tinker with wood for the first time in 15 years.

Has it been alot of money? Yes.

Do I regret any of it? No.

Why? Because they enable my hobby to build higher quality furniture than I could ever afford purchasing from the store and I get to have everything custom fitted exactly where I want them in the size I like them. My Festools are still cheap compared to commissioning custom built solid wood furniture here and I get the enjoyment of creating and a mental departure from my daytime job whenever the weather permits me to setup shop in the backyard. I'm also looking forward to teach my son creating things once he's old enough to use hand tools - just tonight he was badgering me when can he start using my powertools...  [wink]

For me as a hobbyist with limited space and no shop the primary benefit of Festools is to be able to create again, the secondary benefit is to get distance from my rather stressful day-job and the third benefit is to enjoy the accuracy, no-nonsense setup, low dust and quick workflow when I have my limited slots of time to tinker. Only the last group would be of any interest for a professional whose day-job is to build things.

 

[PaulMarcel]

If Festool Finland were doing a video contest, your post would be perfect

 

[Frank Pellow]

Reiska, I really enjoyed reading your post.,

For the first few years of my marriage (almost 50 years ago), I struggled with mostly hand tools in a refitted closet in our apartment in Toronto and (somehow?) managed to make some serviceable furniture.

I could have done a lot better if I had a few of the Festool tools that you have at your disposal.

I hope that I never have to go back living to an apartment but, if I do, I will certainly take several Festool tools with me.

 

[Tigers Tigers!]

Hi all, as quite a newbie to FOG & Festool  tools I would like to say how much I am enjoying being a member and all the fantastic information that's on here.
I find this post interesting in that everyone has some sort of bias including me  [embarassed] even if we try very hard not to. I used to work as a panel beater and made one off specials etc. so at the end of that career I could say that I was a professional and needed good tools, not that a good tool will make your work good but that it helps achieve that end and the better a tool works the easier the job becomes, the more you then might enjoy doing that job and then the knock on effects of that more pride a better finished job, a happier life even! etc., etc. I was told when starting out that it was a false economy to buy cheap and that snap on tools were the best, but as an apprentice it was hard to fund such a cost so I had a mix of cheap tools and snap on. I quickly found that  (generally) the cheaper tools would not last as long and indeed fails at times when I could least afford it, that's not to say just because a tool is expensive it is the best, take snap-on Phillips for instance I found that they rounded quite quickly but that they would be replaced quickly and with no quibble at all so the after service added to the tools value. so where am I going with this  ???  ??? well becoming board I looked for a new career finally settling on building but specialising on taking on jobs that other builders couldn't or wouldn't take on due to difficulty levels or difficult & awkward customers and even putting right the bodge boys work [eek], already knowing that a good tool helps I bought the best I could afford at the time bosch and was quite happy with them for a number of years, repairs to tools were good and service life was reasonable , then in the last year or so I have had so many faulty/ poor repairs/ tools that would not perform as advertised that I finely lost it and started to research for a new brand. i came across many reviews of all sorts but that in many where festool was sited, the cost was a major factor in it being labelled as super but too expensive. now if your a hobbyist then that might swing it for you however if you are professional then you know that time is money and anything that saves you time works, like decent dust extraction or cuts that are straight and at the angle intended also if a customer sees a clean van with clean well presented tools they are far more likely to think you are professional and do a professional job and ultimately employ you than if you turn up in a rusty van with a broken tool box and some of B&Qs finest [scared].
now I am not a tool snob or indeed rich but I do know the value of a decent tool, so I bought a second hand festool jigsaw to see what the fuss was about, and even on the first use I could tell that this did put my bosch jig in the shade [big grin]
so what made me try festool was it the big glossy ads, or the wood working reviews nope [huh] what about my trial nope  [blink] it was the more honest and reliable fusion of all the comments made by every one every where then a big slice of common sense my trial just confirmed it [thumbs up] so anyone want to buy a lot of bosch tools?

 

[Tinker]

I have mentioned above about finding "cheap ain't cheap..."  and that when in mason biz, i found Milwaukee, even tho a little more to purchase were actually less expensive in the long run.  I also paid more for my trowels.  I found that paying a few $$$'s more for a Brittish made brick trowel (JTS for the brick trowels and WHS for concrete and plaster finishing), I increased my production laying brick by more than 10% per day.  I could increase my production laying block by a nearly as much.  I considered that they paid for themselves many times over on the first day of use.  Some of my friends tried bugging me about the added expense in buying those tools.  It is funny to me (well not so funny for my supplier i guess) that when I retired from the mason biz,  the lone supplier in the area for my trowels closed their doors within about 6 months.

Those trowels had a narrower heel and a much shorter tang and seemed more like an extension to my had.  The trowels used by most masons around me were much wider at the heel and the longer tang, to me, made those trowels seem like I was using a crow bar to lift the mortar. The ergonomics were just a whole lot better.  Festoys are like that for me now.  It is no longer important for me to finish my ww projects by a specified time limit.  I do find it convenient to find less time in setup, cleanup and other operations when i can often find only a half hour here and a half hour there to devote to my "non'paying" hobby. 
Tinker

 

[Bigchasbroon]

One of the lines I give my customers is low cost and value for money are not the same.
There are things that you don't see in the initial purchase price. I bought a ctl midi 2 years ago. I think it was around £250. I opened my van door it fell out and the casing broke. When I went to order a new casing my dealer said they could fix it under warranty. There's not another tool company that would cover accidental damagewhen it comes under warranty.

That said I'm currently waiting on an mft table and it's the one festool purchase I have really agonised over the price. To me looking at what it's made of its should cost about half of what it does, that said for cutting panels the only alternative is a panel saw costing at least 4 or 5 times of a mft and ts55. I guess I'll have to wait see when it comes.

 

[Kev]

In a utopian society every tool would be an improvement on the best tools we have available today. They'd be made by happy smiling people in an idyllic environment. These people wouldn't want for food , shelter or entertainment and would share their time responsibly between productivity and creativity for the better of the whole.

The economy would be driven by a common desire to improve ... and they'd be no reviewers with biased perspectives on anything, just real users with constructive feedback.

Maybe in a parallel universe anyway [smile]

 

[Larso]

For another persective --  what about where the price isnt an indicator of the quality.

I sure most of us have purchased the more expensive option believing we would be recieving a product of higher quality only to find the performance did not justify the cost.

I would prefer that the cost be only included in reviews as a service to readers not as an evaluation parameter,i am more interested if the tool sands wood,hurts my ears or collects dust than the final price.

Anyone who is involved in setting prices for a manufactured product will tell you the final consideration when setting the retail price is the 'what the market will stand parameter' so often the final price has only a vague connection to the product performance which is where the review can be very helpful if completed honestly.

 

[peter halle]

Here is an interesting review of a non-woodworking product.  Simple, shows what the product does and it durability.  No mention of cost (but I know they are premium priced.)

Smile and enjoy.

http://www.outsideonline.com/featured-videos/gear-videos/Gear-Guy---Yeti-Cooler.html

Peter