Pin Nailer

[Matthew Schenker]

The subject kind of says it.  I'd love to see what Festool could come up with in a pin nailer.
Matthew

PS: Please don't tell me they already have one available in Europe.  I hate when that happens.

 

[greg mann]

I would like to see what Per might think of this line of thought and certainly Christian could comment as well. I think there are some very good pin nailers out in the market aleady. Grex? This is where Per can offer his experience. I also think Festool has a philosophy that they won't waste time developing a product that does not have measureable advantage over other munufacturer's offering. I suspect this is why we have not seen a Festool biscuit joiner. What could they do that Lamello hasn't already done. That said, they developed the Domino instead, which may hurt Lamello more than anyone else. How so? Lamello's market is strictly high end. But, there is a now competing high end product that offers far more utility, and folks who are willing to pony up for a Lamello will certainly be willing to buy the Domino. Indeed, the Domino has far broader market appeal than Lamello's BJ. Festool is essentially pulling many folks that Lamello could never entice up into that high end portable joining tool market.

Festool certainly has access to pneumatic technology (Festo) that virtually no other tool company could approach. If they saw a place where they could offer value beyond the existing high end prodoucts I think they would be there now. Just my guess. They could be hard at work designing something now, or, they might already have it and we don't know about it, but I think Dan would have uncovered it by now.

 

[Lou Miller]

Its going to be really hard to beat what your currently get from Grex. They have models that will shoot up to a 2" pin. I have the version that shoots up to 1-3/8" (anything longer, and I wouldn't want to be using a pin). As far as I'm concerned, its a flawless tool.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Greg,
Interesting thoughts, and I think what you say applies to a lot of "wish list" items.  It does make me curious, wondering what Festool is developing, and what we might see in the future.  I mean, two years ago I don't think many of us here had any concept that a Domino would be on the way.  Now we have the Kapex, another one I would not have predicted a few years ago.  Who knows what's next!

Its going to be really hard to beat what your currently get from Grex. They have models that will shoot up to a 2" pin. I have the version that shoots up to 1-3/8" (anything longer, and I wouldn't want to be using a pin). As far as I'm concerned, its a flawless tool.

I've noticed the Grex before, and saw it at a woodworking show.  It was impressive.  Where did you buy yours?

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Michael Kellough]

I think Per weighed in on the Grex back at the Yahoo forum a little more than a year ago. He definitely liked it, I think he bought it.

I have the 1 3/8" model as well. At 23 gauge the body of the pin is so small that it is easily distracted by variations in the grain of the wood. I once had a pin bend in the substrate and come back up and stick into my fingernail. Sure glad it wasn't a 2" pin.

 

[Lou Miller]

I got mine at a show (the same show that I bought my first Festools at). The fastener company is pretty good for an online source. Amazon is too, but they sell the Grex through another retailer. Often times that means you can get a better deal if you deal directly with that retailer.

 

[Overtime]

Grex 635 - hard to beat, even looks like a Festool  ;D - green and black

 

[shopfit1]

we all use the dewalt angled nail gun for onsite work in england hardly see anyone with the plaslode gun's anymore  plus being battery only  it makes the pins cheaper.  if i'm using air feed in the workshop i use a prebena upto 35mm or a makita upto50mm  the prebena is all plastic/resin  so it's really light but very robust

 

[ccmviking]

We use the Grex P635 for all light trim work (Decorative panels and molding).  Larger pieces that you might be leary of a pin supporting can be strengthened using some panel adhesive such as Loctite's offering.  We have 2 of the Grex unit's and they are flawless.  Shot thousands of pins and never had a jam.  They will always bury the pin into pretty much any hard/soft wood.  The only issue you'll have with them is depending on the grain, etc. of what you're joining is they can turn after going in an inch or so and come out in an unexpected area.  Be careful with your aim and It might not be an issue.  Another nice feature is that if you have to pull something apart you can withou ruining it and if you work the pin back and forth a few times it will break off just under the surface.  I bought a Grex 15ga. finish nailer and wasn't so impressed with it.  It went to Goodwill and I bought a Bostich N62FNK-2 from Lowes and just love it (Made in USA too, out of Magnesium).  I liked the Bostich finish nailer so much that I bought a Bostich Framing Nailer F21PL from Lowes and don't have a single complaint about it either (You need to try the different rubber tips when nailing casing and base, way cool to keep your nails aligned).  I was very suprised and impressed with the Bostich line as I had never really thought much about them.  I'm glad I gave them a go...

P.S.  I get my GREX units and all my pins and small diameter air hoses and fittings from the Securefastening guy on Ebay.  I've bought from him for a couple of years now and customer service, ship speed, and quality have been excellent.

Chris...

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Sounds like I should check out the Grex!

So, I'm looking at these Grex models (prices as shown on Amazon):
P630 23-gauge Micro Pinner (3/8" - 1 3/16") - $139
P635 23-gauge headless pinner (3/8" - 1 3/8") - $189
P645L 23-gauge Micro Pinner (1/2" - 1 3/4") - $289
P645 23-gauge Pneumatic Micro Pinner (3/8" - 1 3/4") - $310

Some things are obvious, like the pin-length capacity.  But there's a pretty good price swing here.  So I'm wondering if there are other not-so-obvious but important differences.

Sounds like people favor the P635.

Matthew

 

[Dan Clark]

Matthew,

First of, I don't have a pin nailer, but I've been thinking of getting one to add to my collection of nailers.  Here's what I found out... 

I think there are just three Grex - the older 630, the newer 635, and the newest 645.  I ruled out the 630 because of pin length.  That leaves the 635 or 645.  Although the 645 is larger and heavier (but not by much), I believe they have the same functionally except for pin length.    The good news about 645 is that you get an extra 3/8" pin length.  The bad news is that users report that longer pins have more of a propensity to blow out the side.  That said, the 645 has the extra capacity if necessary, but you don't have to use it.

There's another nailer that I'm looking at too - the Cadex 23g pinners.  The bigger Cadex can handle a 2" pin.  But more importantly, both Cadexes can fire headless AND slightly headed 23g pins.  To me this is a pretty good advantage over pinners which fire only headless pins.    The downside is that the bigger Cadex is about $120 more than it's smaller brethren.

Two oddities that I've come up with about the Cadex.  First, I believe that Cadex and Grex are both made in the same factory and, if you look carefully, they are VERY similar.  Second, the Cadex only has a limited distribution network.  While I can run down to a local tool dealer about 7 minutes away and handle a Grex, it's virtually impossible to get the feel of a Cadex.  On the flip side, since the Cadex and Grex are look almost the same, they reviewers say they handle similarly.

Here's a Cadex link:http://www.floydtool.com/pin_nailer.htm#23hp. 

Regarding reviews, the April 2007 Issue of Woodworkers Journal (just out) has a review of 23g pinners.    It picked the Grex 635 as best oveall, with the Cadex pretty much tied Cadex CPB23.50, except that the Grex cost a lot less.  The review as pretty well written except that they match the medium size Grex (635) against the largest Cadex.  If they had rated the Grex 645, the prices would have been more similar, and the result would have been a tie or the Cadex slightly leading.

Also, the July 2006 issue Journal of Light Construction (JLC) also rated 23G pinners.  In this review, they rated the Grex 635 against the Cadex CP23.35 which was more apples to apples.  This time the Cadex came out on top (I believe because of it's ability to shoot headed pins).  The Grex and Max pinners were very close seconds. 

Also, I just read another review of 23g pinners (I think by Fine Homebuilding but I can't find the issue.)  I this review, they liked the Nikle pinner the best and downrated the Cadex and Grex pinners.  Like the Cadex, the Nikle can fire headless and headed pins.

I'll probably buy when when I start finishing my master bathroom.  It turns out that I'm installing a lot more wood there.  I'm wrestling with whether I want to use a pinner or my PC 18g brad nailer for the smaller trim.  If I could use headed pins, then the 23g pinner might work and produce a better finish.  If I'm limited to headless pins, then it will probably be the 18g nailer.

In a couple more months, I'll probably have to make a decision.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Paul Franklin]

Matt

Woodcraft now carry the Grex guns. At least can can handle them there.

Paul

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Dan,
Thanks for covering the latest reviews on the pin nailers!  I've seen the Cadex mentioned in various places.  As you know, it always becomes difficult after reading a lot of reviews: seems I always get my choices narrowed down to two or three models and then it's tough!  I think that's a personality trait of Festool customers -- the fastidious search for the best tool.  If only Festool made a pin nailer, it would make my decision easier!!!

From what you're saying, going with the latest model Cadex or Grex would be good.  Now I just need a chance to test each model in person.  I've seen them at woodworking shows, but at the time I was not interested in a pinner, so I kind of tried them out for a minute to satisfy my curiosity then went on my way.  I always thought these were for temporary or very light or thin wood.  I've since learned that pinners can be used to really hold moldings.

I've got some built-ins to do over the next few months in my old house, and I'd like to try a pinner for the moldings rather than a brad nailer.  I have the Porter+Cable three-nailer set, which is pretty nice, but if I can install moldings with even smaller nail holes, I'd love it.  It's encouraging to me to read that with the Grex or Cadex, the holes from the pins are "nearly invisible."  Sounds too good to be true, but I've heard it from so many reliable sources I'm encouraged.

Again, thanks for putting together the latest information.  You've been a tremendous resource in this forum, and this discussion is just one example!  It's great having this kind of information recorded in the forum, so anyone else who might have the same questions can make use of your efforts.

Stay in touch,
Matthew

 

[Lou Miller]

Matt,

If you're planning on nailing up molding with just a pin nailer, you might be in for some dissapointment. You really need to use some type of adehsive along with the pins. The pins alone aren't strong enough to hold most molding long term. They'll work by themselves for little things, but not for stuff like door casing, baseboards, or crown. I either put some wood glue on the back of the moldings or use loctite (power grab or something like that) if the moldings are pre-finished. The purpose of the pins is simply to hold things while the glue dries and give you the smallest hole possible. By themsleves, they have very little holding strength.

Here's a recent thread over at Gary Katz's forum on the subject:http://forums.jlconline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=35578

Most of those guys went with the Cadex that shoots 1-3/8" pins. Not real sure why its the most popular among those guys. I went with Grex635 because its more readily available. There's about 20 places by me that carry it and there aren't any that I know of that carry Cadex. I figured if for whatever reason I needed something for my gun (not real sure what, but you never know), it would be easier to get it with a Grex. Based on everything that I've read, there's almost no difference between the two guns anyway.

 

[ccmviking]

Matt,

If you're planning on nailing up molding with just a pin nailer, you might be in for some dissapointment. You really need to use some type of adehsive along with the pins. The pins alone aren't strong enough to hold most molding long term. They'll work by themselves for little things, but not for stuff like door casing, baseboards, or crown.

In my experience pins will hold most moldings very well.  For example If I'm Installing 3.5" (88.9 mm) crown I use CA glue on joints so that when I hand assemble I can hold in place and ensure a perfect fit up.  If you ever try to hold and nail or pin a joint it almost always gets knocked somewhat out of place and then you have to fuss with it to re-align.  I hold the joint for a few seconds while the CA glue set and then I shoot a few pins into it.  This is now going to just fall apart... Can you break i apart, sure you can...  Once your molding is pinned to your workpiece it will be attached securely.  If you want to remove the molding it will take some prying and leverage.  Shoot a pin into some molding and try to remove it... It's not just going to pull out...  Where I do not recommend headless pins is on ply materials.  they are too loose to provide any holding power.  You cannot use a headless pin to attach 1/4" plywood skin to the side of a cabinet, etc.  It won't even hold it securely while the glue dries... it just doesn't work. 

Chris...

 

[Dan Clark]

Matthew, Lou,

First, I believe Lou is correct - you'll need some form of adhesive for baseboards, other moldings, etc.  (For door casings, I think I'll use my 15g or 18g.)    That's one of the reasons that I'm interested in the headed pins.  They appear have a bit more holding power.

The MAJOR issue that I have with the Cadex is it's limited distribution.  The Grex is available at my local Woodcraft and at a very good tool store only 7 minutes away (it's a very dangerous toy store). 

I disagree with Lou on one point - a key (only?) difference between the mid-size Grex 635 and the Cadex CPB23.35 23g pinners is that the Grex shoots headless only and the Cadex shoots both headless and headed pins.  I view that as a pretty significant difference.    If it wasn't for that difference, I'd buy the Grex immediately. 

BTW, the author of the Journal of Light Construction pinner review is none other than Gary Katz.  I suspect that's why the forum members chose Cadex.

Regards,

Dan.

p.s.  From the Floyd tool site (vendor of Cadex, Nikle, and Fasco), they now refer to the "headed pins" as "headed brads".  Change in marketing-speak, I believe.

 

[Lou Miller]

Matt,

If you're planning on nailing up molding with just a pin nailer, you might be in for some dissapointment. You really need to use some type of adehsive along with the pins. The pins alone aren't strong enough to hold most molding long term. They'll work by themselves for little things, but not for stuff like door casing, baseboards, or crown.

In my experience pins will hold most moldings very well.  For example If I'm Installing 3.5" (88.9 mm) crown I use CA glue on joints so that when I hand assemble I can hold in place and ensure a perfect fit up.  If you ever try to hold and nail or pin a joint it almost always gets knocked somewhat out of place and then you have to fuss with it to re-align.  I hold the joint for a few seconds while the CA glue set and then I shoot a few pins into it.  This is now going to just fall apart... Can you break i apart, sure you can...  Once your molding is pinned to your workpiece it will be attached securely.  If you want to remove the molding it will take some prying and leverage.  Shoot a pin into some molding and try to remove it... It's not just going to pull out...   Where I do not recommend headless pins is on ply materials.  they are too loose to provide any holding power.  You cannot use a headless pin to attach 1/4" plywood skin to the side of a cabinet, etc.  It won't even hold it securely while the glue dries... it just doesn't work. 

Chris...

Chirs, you and I obviously have very different experiences then. Sure, a pin will hold. The question is, how long will it hold? IME, pins without glue, don't hold long term. Because they are so thin, and there is no head, the material will tend to work itself free over time. It depends on the material and other factors, but with crown molding... No way will they hold long term.

I use my pinner for glueing up outside corners on crown molding all the time. A little yellow glue on the miter and fire a couple of pins in it. Maybe its years of experience, but I don't have a problem with molding moving on me when I shoot it.

For something like the corwn molding in the picture below, I use pins for the outside corners, 18 ga brads for nailing the bottom on the crown in, and 15 or 16 ga nails for shootng the crown into the ceiling.

For something like the outside corner moldings in this picture (customer added them after the fact and I hated to put them on), pins and a dab of glue are fine.

 

[Lou Miller]

Dan,

As I understand it (correct me if I'm wrong), the headed pins create the same hole as the headless pins. Meaning the headless pin is a straight pin that is 23 guage. The headed pin has a head that is 23 gauge, but the body of the pin is even smaller. I fail to see how a head on that thin of a pin is going to make any difference. The body of the pin is so small that it will move quite easily. Just my opinion only as I have no reference on this matter. I could easily be wrong.

BTW- I don't know any trim carpenters (and I know a ton of them) that use pinners for door casings. 18 ga brads have always been considered the smallest option that was useable. Door casings are subject to far too much force for 23 ga pins to hold up well.

 

[Dan Clark]

Lou,

Well, this is a toughie because a) I don't have any pinner and b) because I can't get my hands on a Cadex to check this out, but...

Here's the Cadex CPB23.35 (the mid size version) page on the Cadex tool site:http://www.cadextools.com/tools_cp2335.html.  Click on the green picture of the pins and it will enlarge.  The pic is a little confusing, but according to that pic showing 23g pins:

- Headless pins have a wire diameter of .64mm (.025" ) end to end
- Headed pins have a wire diameter of .84mm (.033") and a head diameter of .87mm.

Now that looks odd to me because the head of the brad looks like it sticks out much more than .03mm (.87mm - .84mm).  Also, both headless and headed are labeled as "23 gauge", but it looks like the headed pins are more like 22 gauge.

I THINK that some of the text is a typo.  I.e., that the pin diameters are the same, but the head of the headed is .87mm.  I could be ENTIRELY wrong on this one.

In any case, I like the option of shooting both types of pins from the same gun.

Regarding door casings, I'm not really knowledgable enough to to agree or disagree.  However, as I mentioned in my original post, I'm planning on using either my 18g or 15g nailer for the casings.

Regards,

Dan.

p.s., after looking, I noticed a few other vendors for the Cadex.  Maybe their distribution network is loosening up.

 

[Ted Miller]

I have always had and used the Senco guns 15 ga, 18 ga and the 18 ga angle finish. Never had a single problem with them in years doing finish work and furniture. I just rec'd the Grex P635 yesterday and was working on a few cabinets yesterday and I just love the headless pins.  I do like the feel of this product, safety trigger is ok, well made gun. It is small for my hand. When I have to build the frames in place this will be a life saver. No holes or heads sticking out on the frames. I also have the Senco 16 ga cordless gun and it works fine as well, so far no jambs and maybe have shot 500, 2 1/2" nails through...