Plunge Saw Advise

Great find Richard!  thx for posting, very interesting web page...

>  0.012-inch maximum deviation over 144 inches

that breaks down to about a thou per ft....  damn good considering the length... and tremendous light weight...  for 12ft, 25 lbs at 1x4" dimension.... 

at $1700 delivered, shows the value of Festool long rails...

 
in forums, its hard to extrapolate humor / sarcasm....

are you really getting one, if so, for what?

gotta admit, it is a cool find....can't think of any ww applications I do that would justify that price....
but if I had one, or access to one, I would prob. start checking stuff just for curiosity....
 
Ken Nagrod said:
I'm getting one.  I'm going to check everything under the sun.

My friend has an SCMI jointer.  Beds are literally large enough to land a jumbo jet and flatter than lake Avalon on a windless day.

I was shocked to learn that my 2x10 lumber is out by 2548 inches over 8 feet of length!!!!!!!!!
 
There was a 'discussion' over on Sawmill Creek about router table flatness and the term +/-.002 was invoked by router guru Pat Warner. I posted a comment that flatness should not be described as a +/- tolerance as it adds confusion to the discussion. The same is true for straightness, perpendicularity, parallelism, roundness, cylindricity, and so on. In all cases where one is describing a geometric form tolerance, zero represents perfection and the deviation is always described as a positive value. Why does it matter? Well, when one says +/-.002 do they mean .002 total variation (supposedly either plus or minus) or .004 total (from one extreme to the other)?

As an example, one can describe straightness more accurately by saying a rail is .010 out-of-flat in a concave or convex condition, or, that the rail is .010 OOF in both (snake shaped).  Then, there can be a discussion about which condition may be more desirable and when. In the case of a router table I would suspect that being convex, with the area immediately surrounding the bit being the highest spot, would be the most desirable form of deviation. For a rail it probably makes little difference, with one case being better sometimes and the other case being better on another occasion.

I asked Pat to clarify what he meant but so far I did not get a direct answer. He did say that his RT was flat within .002 within a 10 inch circle around his bit, so I am going to interpret that to mean he thinks a flatness within .002 total is acceptable. If that is the case, and he wants to continue to use +/- terminology, then he should at least change his description to +/- .001. How much clearer might it be to just say .002 total variation?
 
Tom Bellemare said:
1/32" is 31 thousandths and change. That's not much over a long distance, especially if the object being measured is not milled.

I have designed a lot of metal parts where +/- 15 thousandths was the default tolerance for machining. I wouldn't consider 30 thousandths to be out of consideration for a 4' extrusion.

Tom

Tom gets what I mean.  ;D
 
greg mann said:
Well, when one says +/-.002 do they mean .002 total variation (supposedly either plus or minus) or .004 total (from one extreme to the other)?

+/-.002 means it can be .002 in either one direction or the other, so a possible total of .004.
 
Gregs point is, for flatness, its simply a given value from flat.....

Thicknesses are +/- tolerance values...

router table flatness matters.... I have done lots of edge working that never comes out as perfect as I would like...the reason is, the flat piece takes on the unevenness of the table...
when something is critical, I use a trim router, as the base is over a small area of the piece being routed....
 
JSands said:
in forums, its hard to extrapolate humor / sarcasm....

are you really getting one, if so, for what?

gotta admit, it is a cool find....can't think of any ww applications I do that would justify that price....
but if I had one, or access to one, I would prob. start checking stuff just for curiosity....

Sarcasm.  If I had one, I'd most likely go nuts finding imperfections in everything.  [big grin]

I don't understand what's so hard about understanding what tolerance means? [unsure]  Alex gets it.

I've seen tolerances also expressed in something like this manner:  +0.002" / -0.006".     When the deviation is the same in both directions, then there's no need to write +0.002" / -0.002" instead it's expressed simply as +/- 0.002".
 
you should try the mean +/- one standard deviation of the population of measurements, which is a typical measure of uncertainty.  That's when it starts getting fun...
 
andvari said:
A 12' straight edge for checking runway flatness goes for $1500 or so. It is spec'ed +/- 0.012" Maybe with one of these you could get the straightness you are looking for.

Well, here ya go. Andvari references a runway flatness gauge and says it is spec'd at plus or minus .012".  Not so. The actual tolerance of the gauge is .012 TOTAL, which is, of course, half as much deviation. My guess is that making a runway flat to .125" per 12 feet is an order of magnitude more difficult than .250" per 12 feet.

All I am suggesting is that we clarify what these values really mean when we use them. When we say plus or minus are we really implying the total deviation or are we just being careless? The difference is not insignificant. Like the difference between one inch and two.

 
Alex said:
greg mann said:
Well, when one says +/-.002 do they mean .002 total variation (supposedly either plus or minus) or .004 total (from one extreme to the other)?

+/-.002 means it can be .002 in either one direction or the other, so a possible total of .004.

This is true when you are referencing size, like diameter or thickness, but it is not helpful for geometric features where perfection is represented by zero deviation. Without special clarification, such as concave or convex, in which either would be described as a plus value, tolerances of form are always uni-directional. In your example, Alex, the tolerance should be described as .004. If it is used to describe straightness.
 
Greg:

I'm not sure a GD&T discussion is valuable here... or maybe it is.

Tom
 
Ok, I just fixed it.  Greg is now banned from all woodworking forums and anything that uses the word "wood".  All he'll see is an empty vortex on his screen.  Now everyone else can relax.  We are back at DEFCON 5.  [cool]
 
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