plunge saws and guide rail length

[dicktill]

Hi all,

I'm a bit confused about using a plunge saw (specifically the TS 55, but applicable to all) on a guide rail, and what minimum length of rail you need. Obviously it's best to have enough length to start the saw "outside" of the material to be cut, but what if you don't have enough length, such as using a 55" rail to crosscut a 4' sheet of plywood? Is it wrong to start the cut by plunging? After all, it IS a plunge saw. The thread http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-reviews/carlson-designs-reviews-the-ts-55-req/ seems to indicate that this is wrong:

... My biggest concern is where he is shown plunging the blade on a few cuts. The first one wasn't even a plunge cut, but he just didn't back the saw up far enough before the cut. That will quickly pull the saw to full depth unexpectedly, and is probably a fairly common mistake with new users.  ...

I especially don't understand the part about "That will quickly pull the saw to full depth unexpectedly".

Thanks, Dick

 

[Brice Burrell]

Like you said, sometimes it is unavoidable to start a cut without plunging the saw.  Rick's comment about the saw being pulled down to full depth is referring to the full depth you have the saw set to.  So if you have the saw set to 26mm it can jump quickly to 26mm depth if you plunge the saw.  Rick also mentioned it is possible to reduce, or eliminate the quick jump if you're aware and give the saw a little extra care when plunging.  It is also very important to let the saw get up to full speed before starting any cut, plunge or otherwise.  I've had my TS55 for over six years and have not had any problems with uncontrolled plunging.  There is far less potential for jump/uncontrolled plunge with thinner material, like that of most sheet goods.  I've experienced more likelihood for jump when cutting near or at full 55mm depth.  Never, have felt it was dangerous.  Not that the potential is non-existent, it's just I think Rick may have over emphasized it.  At least that's what my experience has been.  All the same use the stop and above all use common sense.         

 

[Wooden Skye]

The first time I used my ts55 with the 1400 rail to crosscut a 4' piece of ply, I centered the guide rail on the sheet and experienced a small bit of kickback.  Now I leave about an inch or two of the rail at the end of the cut, which provides enough room at the beginning to support the saw and allows for the plunge not in the material.  Once the saw finishes the cut which you can usually tell or feel, I stop the saw and it remains supported.

Hope this helps, sure others will chime in.

 

[ccarrolladams]

Hi all,

I'm a bit confused about using a plunge saw (specifically the TS 55, but applicable to all) on a guide rail, and what minimum length of rail you need. Obviously it's best to have enough length to start the saw "outside" of the material to be cut, but what if you don't have enough length, such as using a 55" rail to crosscut a 4' sheet of plywood? Is it wrong to start the cut by plunging? After all, it IS a plunge saw. The thread http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tool-reviews/carlson-designs-reviews-the-ts-55-req/ seems to indicate that this is wrong:

... My biggest concern is where he is shown plunging the blade on a few cuts. The first one wasn't even a plunge cut, but he just didn't back the saw up far enough before the cut. That will quickly pull the saw to full depth unexpectedly, and is probably a fairly common mistake with new users.  ...

I especially don't understand the part about "That will quickly pull the saw to full depth unexpectedly".

Thanks, Dick

First of all, Festool decided to make the basic guide rail for the TS55 and before that the ATF55 1400mm (55") long because that is a length wich will work cutting 48" of material. Hundreds of thousands of Festool owners have done this routinely for a long time. It just takes confidence gain through experience. Also it is much easier to make 48" cuts with the 1400mm rail using a TS55 when you clamp the rail to the work.

When Festool invented the TS55 it was obvious that it needs a longer rail, so Festool eventually marketed the 1900mm (75") rail. I own both TS75 and TS55 saws. I have never had a problem making 48" cuts with a TS55 on a 1400mm rail, but then for such a cut I clamp the rail. I also own 1900mm rails. In my experience those are overly long to the point of being hard to handle for cutting 48" material. The problem is supporting the extra rail at the start and finish of the cut. But then it is always best practice to support the over-hang of the rail, especially at the start of the cut.

It is not an efficient practice to start a routine cut by plunging into material. If the rail is marginal for length it is better to run the saw off the rail at the end of the cut. With practice you will not damage the work. Of course running the saw off the rail will mean slightly less effective dust collection.

I own both 2700mm and 3000mm rails. You need to be careful and have experience to use the 2700mm rail to make 8' cuts with a TS55 saw but it can be done. The 3000mm rail is needed to do so with the TS75 and that does make 8' cuts with the TS55 easier, but you still need to support the rail over-hang.

 

[semenza]

I also find that plunging into the cut and raising the saw  while still in the kerf  at the end of the cut tends to "clip" a little more off the work piece. Just a sliver at the top corner (maybe 1/32"). But that is enough to make joints not fit well right at the corners. Sometimes that matters sometimes not.

Nothing really wrong with making plunge cuts, just make the plunge slow with two hands for control, and use the anti-kickback stop.

Personally I like the 1900 (75") rail for cross cutting sheet goods . Which is really a little more than needed, but is the next longer rail than the 1400 (55").  I like the 3000 (118") for  ripping sheet goods. Plenty of room for saw run  in/out and it is easier to place the rail because you don't have to be as picky about  the amount of extra  at each end.

Seth

 

[Tinker]

An important point to remember when making plunge cuts (See Brice's post above) is to make sure blade is up to speed BEFORE plunging.  If the teeth are in contact with the wood before it is spinning up to speed, all sorts of surprises can be in sore for you, none of them good.

Don't ask how i know.  i will tell you it happened to somebody else :

Tinker

 

[greymann]

I routinely use my MFT longwise and after struggling with the 1400 got a 1900.  When mounted on the MFT I found the sag at the beginning of the cut using the 55 to be annoying.  The fix I came up with was to use the set of connector bars in the top slot of the rail near the end and near the center where I was noticing some flex.  It didn't remove all the flex but at least made it quite a bit less noticeable.

Dick

 

[wondersofwood]

So, while I patiently (NOT) wait for my new TS55R to arrive, I was looking at ordering a longer rail.  At first I thought I would order the 3000 mm, having enough length to make some angle cuts on sheet goods, but my 12x24 garage with 8 foot ceiling would make the almost 10' rail a little tricky to maneuver.

I changed my mind and was going to order the 2700 this week... how many people are having difficulty cutting 8' sheet goods with the 2700?

 

[waho6o9]

the 3000 mm is your friend.

[smile]

 

[ccarrolladams]

After I bought the 2424mm Holy rail, the next one was the 2700mm. My reason was I would be using it in a small room where I could not walk around a 3000mm rail. A few weeks later, when I rented more shop space, I also bought a 3000mm rail.

I have made thousands of 8' cuts using a TS55 and 3700mm rail. I put a marker line on the start end to show me when I have enough room to plunge before entering the work. I also always clamp the rail, especially when making the first clean-up cut on a new sheet of material.

The advantage to the 3000mm rail is I can use more room to start the cut and still have excess rail at the end of the cut.

 

[wondersofwood]

I suppose I'll get the 3000 instead... I'd rather have the extra length before and after the cut.

 

[semenza]

I suppose I'll get the 3000 instead... I'd rather have the extra length before and after the cut.

The 2700 will do the job with the TS55 but the 3000 is just easier. I used a 2700 for several years, and before  I upgraded my ATF55 to the TS55 I planned to also upgrade to the 3000 rail. I have now used the 3000 for several years and wouldn't want to go back to the 2700.

Lots of ways to store these things.  What is your space like?  Do you have dedicated shop space ? Does the car go in when not being used as a shop?  Permanent  table set up for cutting?

I am sure someone else on the FOG will have a similar situation and can recommend a storage solution.

Seth

 

[Tinker]

I got the 75".
Usually, when cutting a full sheet of ply into dimensioned sections, at least one end gets cut to something like 48"x something like +/-30"
I make that cut first and then rip lengthwise what is left for other dimensions.
It is nearly impossible to get a full 4/8 sheet into my work area.
I usually do the breakdown outside using the tailgate of my truck, a horse or two and some 2xs for the cutting table and then move the sections inside to my MFT for final dimensioning.

I wood like to get the 3000 next, but have problems moving it around and/or storing.
As i reduce my supply of landscaping tools, i may get the longer rail and store out in my barn.

I would then find it possible to break sheets to exact dimensions before coming inside.
I used to do that, but found difficult to maintain the accuracy i needed without the full length rail to start out with.
Tinker

 

[wondersofwood]

I suppose I'll get the 3000 instead... I'd rather have the extra length before and after the cut.

The 2700 will do the job with the TS55 but the 3000 is just easier. I used a 2700 for several years, and before  I upgraded my ATF55 to the TS55 I planned to also upgrade to the 3000 rail. I have now used the 3000 for several years and wouldn't want to go back to the 2700.

Lots of ways to store these things.  What is your space like?  Do you have dedicated shop space ? Does the car go in when not being used as a shop?  Permanent  table set up for cutting?

I am sure someone else on the FOG will have a similar situation and can recommend a storage solution.

Seth

These are just the type of opinions I was looking for... I'd hate to spend the money on the 2700, then wish I'd bought the 3000.  Or end up buying the 3000 later and hardly use the 2700 after that when I could have used that money for another tool!

After seeing the other thread by Eric with his new 3000 and the pictures of how a few members are storing them, I will be able to make a little shelf up near the ceiling along the side wall where my miter saw is located.  Now I'm wondering if I may end up ordering a 75" rail down the road.  I will see how I like working with the 55" for a few weeks though.

My garage is now dedicated to tools... no car.  Good thing, or I'd likely scratch it!

 

[semenza]

My comments are basically the same for the 55" / 75" comparison.  Although I kept and still use the 55" because it is handier for cuts less than 48".

Seth

 

[Tinker]

For me, the 75" would not work for cross cutting.  I would not be able to walk around either end.
My ceiling is too low for me to jump over it as well.  [scared]
my knees and back don't want to bend enough for me to crawl under.  [crying]
Tinker

 

[dicktill]

Thanks for the advice, esp. Brice, Wooden Skye, Carroll, & Seth ...

Regards, Dick

 

[Tinker]

Thanks for the advice, esp. Brice, Wooden Skye, Carroll, & Seth ...

Regards, Dick

For me, the 75" would not work for cross cutting.  I would not be able to walk around either end.
My ceiling is too low for me to jump over it as well.  [scared]
my knees and back don't want to bend enough for me to crawl under.  [crying]
Tinker

Ah ha! by the time you have been 39 as long as I, you will have me on that list as well [laughing]
Tinker

 

[dicktill]

Ah Tinker, you're right. [oops]   Have enjoyed many of your posts!  [thanks]

Ah ha! by the time you have been 39 as long as I, you will have me on that list as well [laughing]
Tinker

Yes I'm new to woodworking, but not so to life; I've had a bunch of those 39's as well. [unsure]

 

[TomGadwa1]

Go for the 3000 rail and store it up near the ceiling. I hang mine from the ceiling using its shipping container for safe stowing and a bicycle hoist to raise and lower it for usage. Alternately a high shelf may suffice. I like storing mine in the vertical plane as I feel it will keep its dimension better this way than if it is laying flat but not on a perfectly flat 3000 mm surface. The box it comes in works very well for protecting and storing the rail.