poor finish of FESTOOL plunge and miter saw

[macomk]

Hi folks,

I've recently purchased Festool miter and plunge saw. I was looking forward to it as I was told by few professionals that Festool is the brand. I am an engineer myself so I am not an expert to make comments regarding clean cuts, etc. However I was very surprised to find flaws on finish of the tools. Main parts are of poor quality cast finish, please see the attached pictures. One can say this is only cosmetic issue, but we are paying premium price.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Sorry, I am one of those who says it's only a cosmetic issue. It's a tool, not a centerpiece.

Nothing to worry about.

It's the performance that counts.

 

[Paul G]

Minor stuff like that would only concern me if it impacted performance or happened to be sharp and possibly cut my hand. Get back to us about how the tools work.

 

[macomk]

Alex and Paul G could you let me know if your tools have got the same/similar flaws?

Paul G - on the mitre saw it is uncomfortable to hold it, but festool said hold it elsewhere.

Dear Alex, on the plunge saw material is missing; therefor structure must be much weaker. Not just for impact but for vibrations as well.

My question is about paying FULL PREMIUM PRICE for badly finished product. Would you pay full price for your brand new Porsche with rusty alloys or 70" plasma with chipped frame???

 

[greg mann]

Are you going to put these tools in a display case or are you going to use them?  [huh]

 

[Pixel]

Alex and Paul G could you let me know if your tools have got the same/similar flaws?

Paul G - on the mitre saw it is uncomfortable to hold it, but festool said hold it elsewhere.

Dear Alex, on the plunge saw material is missing; therefor structure must be much weaker. Not just for impact but for vibrations as well.

My question is about paying FULL PREMIUM PRICE for badly finished product. Would you pay full price for your brand new Porsche with rusty alloys or 70" plasma with chipped frame???

Hope you didn't pay full wack, you should be getting 25-30% off in the UK

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

The castings on your tools are normal and do not compromise their functionality or longevity. I believe you have a 15-day return/exchange period in the UK if you're unsatisfied with the tools. But, as others have advised, I would suggest that you consider using them before passing judgment.

Shane

 

[Paul G]

Alex and Paul G could you let me know if your tools have got the same/similar flaws?

Paul G - on the mitre saw it is uncomfortable to hold it, but festool said hold it elsewhere.

Dear Alex, on the plunge saw material is missing; therefor structure must be much weaker. Not just for impact but for vibrations as well.

My question is about paying FULL PREMIUM PRICE for badly finished product. Would you pay full price for your brand new Porsche with rusty alloys or 70" plasma with chipped frame???

If the hand hold position is sharp and Festool won't fix it then return it. I wouldn't tolerate that.

I couldn't tell you off hand if my tools have minor cosmetic flaws, I've never looked.

As for Porsches and TVs, consumer expectation and product marketing dictate flawless finishes in those product categories. I have seen casting blemishes in Festool marketing images so IMO it can't be said that Festool is making a claim or creating an expectation of a blemish free tool-as-art. If that is your expectation that's fine, perhaps you will find it with another manufacturer. As for me tools is all about function, and in that regards I've got my own opinions at times about Festools shortcomings.

 

[waho6o9]

Exchange it for another one.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Alex and Paul G could you let me know if your tools have got the same/similar flaws?

Yep, they have them 'flawes'. I wouldn't call them flaws, just some visual imperfections. To be honest, I never paid attention to them, not for a second, until now. Some of my tools from other brands like Fein, Elu, Metabo and DeWalt have similar things.
 

Dear Alex, on the plunge saw material is missing; therefor structure must be much weaker. Not just for impact but for vibrations as well.

When you say there's material missing, do you mean those minor dimples in the welds or is there something structurally missing on your saw, like a real defect? A defect is unacceptable of course.

As for structural weakness, you're the engineer, so you should be able to tell whether those flaws are really of influence on the saws functionality and durability. If these saws don't meet the quality standard you expected, you can always return them. You have the right for yourself to decide what you accept and what not. 

My question is about paying FULL PREMIUM PRICE for badly finished product. Would you pay full price for your brand new Porsche with rusty alloys or 70" plasma with chipped frame???

Apples and oranges. Porsches and power tools are not in the same league. Porsches are toys for the sunday show, power tools get serious work done. TV's are something you look at, that's their entire "Raison d'être". I don't look at my tools. I form stuff in all kinds of funny shapes with them.

And when I use my tools, their appearance deteriorates over time anyway because of my actions. Nature of the job.

 

[teocaf]

it's a casting so all will be similar.  it would also be helpful to compare similar issues--the op did not mention that he got the tools in a rusted state, but yet compares his issue to that condition.  if you look carefully at cast parts of a porsche you can probably find similar manufacturing techniques in areas that do not affect anything.  in areas that are affected, secondary operations like machining, polishing, etc, are used.  i'm surprised that an engineer is not more familiar with manufacturing methods like magnesium castings, etc.  the premium costs have more to do with innovation costs and where they are made.  the item would cost a whole lot more to have the edge machined but it would not improve the functionality/accuracy of the equipment one bit.

 

[carlb40]

There was a similar thread a few months back on the table casting of the kapex. As said they are cast parts rather than billet machined, so will always have casting marks. That is unless we are willing to pay even more for festool to machine each part after casting?  [eek]

My TS55 has similar casting marks on the base and it doesn't effect the use at all.  [smile]

 

[gkaiseril]

Reminds me of the story about Rolls Royce buying Hydromatic automatic transmissions from GM and then building them in house. The engineers thought they could improve on the yanks poor workmanship

"Royce specification with the addition of a modified tail housing, and output shaft. These housed and powered the ride control pump and fiction servo for the brakes. Before long, Rolls-Royce had tooled up to manufacture the transmission themselves. The necessary machine tools were made and or purchased and a clean room was built in the factory at Crewe to facilitate assembly. The engineering department at Crewe tried hard to improve on the G.M. product. Rolls-Royce’s engineers at first scoffed at what they perceived as poor finish on some components. They decided to tighten up the tolerances and improve the finish of all the components. Unfortunately when assembled, these improved parts refused to perform satisfactorily. Rolls-Royce’s engineers went back to G.M. for advice. G.M. told them they had gone through the same problems during their development work. They had found certain components needed a rougher finish to make them work. In the end Rolls-Royce were forced to exactly replicate nearly all of the G.M. parts in order to get their version of the transmission to work properly. G.M. had of course got their transmission right at the outset. The Hydromantic transmission was in fact such a fundamentally sound and successful design, it would take over 10 years for anyone to better it."

ROLLS-ROYCE BUILT “HYDRAMATIC”

 

[Stone Message]

Hi Macomk

As an engineer you will be used to the way castings are produced. Some surfaces will be machined if there is an engineering need (bearing, fixing or whatever) but if there is no need to take a skim then it is generally left alone.

Can you explain, from an engineering (not cosmetic) perspective what the problem might be?

Peter

 

[Runhard]

My tools look the same as the ones in your pictures. The tools work perfectly and I would not worry about it too much. I kind of felt the same as you when I bought my Kapex, but at the end of the day I am very satisfied with my Festool purchases.

 

[Ajax]

I have to agree with the original post.  If you buy a tool that is twice the price of its nearest rivals the functionality must not only be near perfect, but the fit and finish should be top notch too.  I think Festool needs to hear these criticisms.  It keeps them on their feet  and constantly improving their products.

If you bought a Lie-Nielsen hand plane and it had poor got and finish, would you accept the argument that it still cuts pretty well?  I wouldn't and I don't think LN would want to sell you such a product.

 

[macomk]

Hi Macomk

As an engineer you will be used to the way castings are produced. Some surfaces will be machined if there is an engineering need (bearing, fixing or whatever) but if there is no need to take a skim then it is generally left alone.

Can you explain, from an engineering (not cosmetic) perspective what the problem might be?

Peter

Dear Peter,

I believe that performance of moving parts isn't going to be affected. From engineering perspective, the finish is not acceptable. I believe that the parts are made cheaply with very little quality control and overused moulds.
Someone mentioned that Dewalt and other cheaper (half price) power tools have them. I can say I haven't seen them on Dewalts.

As I mentioned before it is uncomfortable to lift the miter saw as the edge has got some sharpish blobs.

 

[macomk]

Dear all,

Thank you very much for your responses. There is lot of cabinet maker here so I would like to ask if it would be OK to finish kitchen units with the same flaws as these tools? and still as for premium price. Would you be still proud of your work when you know that edges are chipped, kitchen top has got scratches. Would you still turn around and say don't worry dear that doesn't affect your cooking.

 

[Paul G]

Dear all,

Thank you very much for your responses. There is lot of cabinet maker here so I would like to ask if it would be OK to finish kitchen units with the same flaws as these tools? and still as for premium price. Would you be still proud of your work when you know that edges are chipped, kitchen top has got scratches. Would you still turn around and say don't worry dear that doesn't affect your cooking.

My Festools are a commercial product, so take a look at a commercial kitchen for the best application of your analogy. Every commercial kitchen I've worked in was all about form following function and nothing particularly pretty about them

 

[macomk]

There was a similar thread a few months back on the table casting of the kapex. As said they are cast parts rather than billet machined, so will always have casting marks. That is unless we are willing to pay even more for festool to machine each part after casting?  [eek]

My TS55 has similar casting marks on the base and it doesn't effect the use at all.  [smile]

Hi Carl
I agree that machined parts cost more, and KAPEX cost much more then its competitors. We have already paid for the fine finish.
Cheapest Kapex on the market £900, Hitachi 12" £475, Bosch 12" £500, Bosch gdl incl. stand £910 none of these didn't show mentioned flaws when I seen them.