poor finish of FESTOOL plunge and miter saw

[macomk]

Dear all,

Thank you very much for your responses. There is lot of cabinet maker here so I would like to ask if it would be OK to finish kitchen units with the same flaws as these tools? and still as for premium price. Would you be still proud of your work when you know that edges are chipped, kitchen top has got scratches. Would you still turn around and say don't worry dear that doesn't affect your cooking.

My Festools are a commercial product, so take a look at a commercial kitchen for the best application of your analogy. Every commercial kitchen I've worked in was all about form following function and nothing particularly pretty about them

There is always appearance involved, whether it is look of it or touch, sound etc.
So if your client asks you about such a problem what would you say?

 

[Paul G]

Dear all,

Thank you very much for your responses. There is lot of cabinet maker here so I would like to ask if it would be OK to finish kitchen units with the same flaws as these tools? and still as for premium price. Would you be still proud of your work when you know that edges are chipped, kitchen top has got scratches. Would you still turn around and say don't worry dear that doesn't affect your cooking.

My Festools are a commercial product, so take a look at a commercial kitchen for the best application of your analogy. Every commercial kitchen I've worked in was all about form following function and nothing particularly pretty about them

There is always appearance involved, whether it is look of it or touch, sound etc.
So if your client asks you about such a problem what would you say?

Appearance was of little concern in any commercial kitchen I've worked in. A bunch of stainless steel and tile floors all designed for easy cleaning and processing large quantities of food. I'm guessing by your remarks you haven't spent much time in a commercial kitchen. We didn't go around inspecting the welds and grout for minor blemishes that had absolutely no impact on our ability to prepare food

 

[macomk]

Thank you very much to all of you for your contribution.

 

[macomk]

Dear all,

Thank you very much for your responses. There is lot of cabinet maker here so I would like to ask if it would be OK to finish kitchen units with the same flaws as these tools? and still as for premium price. Would you be still proud of your work when you know that edges are chipped, kitchen top has got scratches. Would you still turn around and say don't worry dear that doesn't affect your cooking.

My Festools are a commercial product, so take a look at a commercial kitchen for the best application of your analogy. Every commercial kitchen I've worked in was all about form following function and nothing particularly pretty about them

There is always appearance involved, whether it is look of it or touch, sound etc.
So if your client asks you about such a problem what would you say?

Appearance was of little concern in any commercial kitchen I've worked in. A bunch of stainless steel and tile floors all designed for easy cleaning and processing large quantities of food. I'm guessing by your remarks you haven't spent much time in a commercial kitchen. We didn't go around inspecting the welds and grout for minor blemishes that had absolutely no impact on our ability to prepare food

I didn't make one you are absolutely right, but I did spent over 20 months and I can say that bad welding can cause all sorts of problems. I would also say that no head chef would accept sharp/unfinished edges of any unit in their kitchen.

 

[teocaf]

it's interesting to me to still see a number of forced comparisons in trying to make the argument fit.  in the case of the kitchen cabinet analogy, i'm sure you'll be informed that the underside of drawers or panels will not receive the same amount of sanding, finish coating etc, as the sides that are seen and touched during normal use.  take a high grade cabinet completely apart and you can see what i'm saying.  also, as you can see on the kapex, the face of the auxiliary fence casting is indeed finished with secondary operations as that affects the precision.  as far as lifting the machine and experiencing discomfort, i believe that is not because of the bumps as you claim--if you lift it with your hand under a perfectly smooth and similarly thin section, the effect will be the same discomfort.  that is due to the amount of pressure that the weight of the machine is exerting on such a small area of your fingers--like a very dull knife edge, if you will.  luckily for you, there is such a generous return policy with the kapex so that you can get that pretty, smooth plastic yellow thing for a fraction of the price, with a fraction of the dust collection/ other features to match.
i never heard the end of the other situation where the guy had the same complaint--does anyone know if he returned the kapex?  or did he end up getting a rotex 90 as well so he could do some proper finish polishing on the bottom edges of his machine? 

 

[macomk]

it's interesting to me to still see a number of forced comparisons in trying to make the argument fit.  in the case of the kitchen cabinet analogy, i'm sure you'll be informed that the underside of drawers or panels will not receive the same amount of sanding, finish coating etc, as the sides that are seen and touched during normal use.  take a high grade cabinet completely apart and you can see what i'm saying.  also, as you can see on the kapex, the face of the auxiliary fence casting is indeed finished with secondary operations as that affects the precision.  as far as lifting the machine and experiencing discomfort, i believe that is not because of the bumps as you claim--if you lift it with your hand under a perfectly smooth and similarly thin section, the effect will be the same discomfort.  that is due to the amount of pressure that the weight of the machine is exerting on such a small area of your fingers--like a very dull knife edge, if you will.  luckily for you, there is such a generous return policy with the kapex so that you can get that pretty, smooth plastic yellow thing for a fraction of the price, with a fraction of the dust collection/ other features to match.
i never heard the end of the other situation where the guy had the same complaint--does anyone know if he returned the kapex?  or did he end up getting a rotex 90 as well so he could do some proper finish polishing on the bottom edges of his machine?

Dear Teocaf,

Yes Kapex is excellent machine I agree.
The rings with those bumps are not hidden so i think you need to come up with better comparison. They are clearly visible on the front and the back. Also the same bumps are causing discomfort as they have a number of small pointed tips.

 

[semenza]

  Lots of comparisons both apt and not so apt can be made here. Not sure why poor welds are being discussed? Those marks are from the castings. They are pretty much the same on every saw that I am aware of. On my own tools they have not effected function , performance, or strength.  Though they may be aesthetically displeasing. As far as lifting / carrying the saw goes ...... head locked down, angled all the way left or right, one hand on hand hold at back of cord wrap , the other under V-groove mount at the end of the table. 

    If the tools do not live up to expectations simply return them under whatever guarantee is applicable.

  Lets keep this thread constructive and not personal.

Seth

 

[Paul G]

I didn't make one you are absolutely right, but I did spent over 20 months and I can say that bad welding can cause all sorts of problems. I would also say that no head chef would accept sharp/unfinished edges of any unit in their kitchen.

The largest commercial kitchen I worked in was a dining hall facility at a university with over 30,000 students. Thankfully they all didn't eat there but we'd serve a few thousand students every mealtime. There were an abundance of injury opportunities beyond the knives, a rough weld was the least of our concerns and those in charge couldn't care less either.

Like I was saying before, I look forward to your evaluation of how the tools perform their tasks for you, I'm assuming you wanted to do more than just look at them.

 

[Scott B.]

The Kapex I actually think is kind of sexy.

I think the biggest visual anomaly in the Festool family is the TS55. One side is really nice looking, the other is just ugly. That one there is like a 3d baseball card.

But, I am just blown away by the work it does.

 

[Paul G]

  Lots of comparisons both apt and not so apt can be made here. Not sure why poor welds are being discussed?

Welds are related to the commercial kitchen analogy where sometimes the stainless gets fabricated. It's about the only thing kitchen related that is analogous to a casting mark on a track saw. Something that may not be pretty but of no consequence to the task at hand.

 

[semenza]

  Lots of comparisons both apt and not so apt can be made here. Not sure why poor welds are being discussed?

Welds are related to the commercial kitchen analogy where sometimes the stainless gets fabricated. It's about the only thing kitchen related that is analogous to a casting mark on a track saw. Something that may not be pretty but of no consequence to the task at hand.

Aah, yup, gotcha'.

Seth

 

[greg mann]

This is a pretty nitpicky group here on the FOG, as tool users go. That's why we wound up here in the first place. That said, I don't believe the OP will find much sympathy for his point of view, other than to take use of the 30 day return policy. As a guy who machines castings for a living I accept the fact that the customer defines quality through his expectations. I also know what drives manufacturing costs as well, and finishing up features that have no impact on function can cost more than those important to function. Most components are designed with ease of manufacture accounted for, with surfaces and features intended for location and holding for the manufacturing process left alone after all necessary work is finished. The analogy to the underside of drawers or the back of cabinets is appropriate, IMHO. If the OP is disappointed, he should send the tools back, taking advantage of a program that in itself is yet another manifestation of a quality product and company. Let him look for quality elsewhere. Good luck with that.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

This is a pretty nitpicky group here on the FOG, as tool users go. That's why we wound up here in the first place. That said, I don't believe the OP will find much sympathy for his point of view, other than to take use of the 30 day return policy. As a guy who machines castings for a living I accept the fact that the customer defines quality through his expectations. I also know what drives manufacturing costs as well, and finishing up features that have no impact on function can cost more than those important to function. Most components are designed with ease of manufacture accounted for, with surfaces and features intended for location and holding for the manufacturing process left alone after all necessary work is finished. The analogy to the underside of drawers or the back of cabinets is appropriate, IMHO. If the OP is disappointed, he should send the tools back, taking advantage of a program that in itself is yet another manifestation of a quality product and company. Let him look for quality elsewhere. Good luck with that.

Yeah, I am not willing to pay another 300 bucks to have the casting line ground and filled before powder coating. 

the dust on mine covers it up anyway. [smile]

Nice place you got there Greg, appreciate the tour.

 

[Ajax]

I don't know why these threads go south so fast.  The customer bought an expensive saw and thought for the money that the fit and finish could be better.  That's good customer feedback that Festool can either use or ignore based on their business objectives.  If the fit and finish is okay with you, then no worries...you have a heck of a good saw.

 

[greg mann]

I don't know that the thread has gone south at all. The OP wanted opinions and he has gotten them. It makes no sense to give an opinion and not explain why. He has choices: Decide, like most of us, the things that bother him shouldn't, or return the tools and try something else.

I think that sums up most of what I have read.

 

[wow]

The customer bought an expensive saw and thought for the money that the fit and finish could be better.  That's good customer feedback that Festool can either use or ignore based on their business objectives. 

i had to pop in - for the first time this week - to say 'I agree'. This thread struck a nerve with me.

Festool as a company can be difficult and frustrating to deal with and understand. While they make a good product, their products  - like those from any other company - are not perfect.

Mr. macomk expressed disappointment and frustration that his VERY EXPENSIVE product wasn't of better quality. That's his opinion, and his right. He wasn't rude, and he wasn't wrong. To dismiss him by saying "if you're unsatisfied with the tools, send them back" is disrespectful to him and misses the chance for Festool to possibly improve on their product. After all, it's complaints and problems - real or perceived - that generate the vast majority of product improvements. If everyone were happy with what they have, why would anything ever get changed?

Just because some people think the product is 'good enough' doesn't mean everyone has to feel the same way. I, for one, respect his opinion and am glad that he posted.

 

[Pixel]

Poor Macomk.

Joins FOG and expresses his concern about the quality of his new festool products and is shot down by the people who believe that to insult a Festool is the work of the devil.
People talk of how they "love" their festool products, some people even replace the cables of non festool products and put them into a Festool systainer and in this post someone actually thinks his festool is "sexy".

GET A LIFE the lot of you or at least go and seek medical help for your OFD.

Welome to the FOG Macomk

 

[Stephen B]

Poor Macomk.

Joins FOG and expresses his concern about the quality of his new festool products and is shot down by the people who believe that to insult a Festool is the work of the devil.
People talk of how they "love" their festool products, some people even replace the cables of non festool products and put them into a Festool systainer and in this post someone actually thinks his festool is "sexy".

GET A LIFE the lot of you or at least go and seek medical help for your OFD.

Welome to the FOG Macomk

[size=14pt]
There has been a lot of anxst on the a Fog of late. Must be the onset of the northern hemisphere winter.  [eek]

And welcome Macomk.  [smile]

 

[Paul G]

The customer bought an expensive saw and thought for the money that the fit and finish could be better.  That's good customer feedback that Festool can either use or ignore based on their business objectives. 

i had to pop in - for the first time this week - to say 'I agree'. This thread struck a nerve with me.

Festool as a company can be difficult and frustrating to deal with and understand. While they make a good product, their products  - like those from any other company - are not perfect.

Mr. macomk expressed disappointment and frustration that his VERY EXPENSIVE product wasn't of better quality. That's his opinion, and his right. He wasn't rude, and he wasn't wrong. To dismiss him by saying "if you're unsatisfied with the tools, send them back" is disrespectful to him and misses the chance for Festool to possibly improve on their product. After all, it's complaints and problems - real or perceived - that generate the vast majority of product improvements. If everyone were happy with what they have, why would anything ever get changed?

Just because some people think the product is 'good enough' doesn't mean everyone has to feel the same way. I, for one, respect his opinion and am glad that he posted.

Wow, speaking for myself, there was nothing dismissive in my intent, and acknowledged in the case of the Kapex if the handhold area is sharp and Festool wouldn't fix it that I wouldn't tolerate it either and return it. Suggesting to return the product is also acknowledging that if the product doesn't meet expectations then take control, do something about it and exercise the option to return the product before it is too late. It's solid advise intended to help macomk, with the alternatives being to live with it or even go to the extent of refinishing the tool himself (many car enthusiasts do that after their discontent with stock features). Frankly a mountain of returns due to casting marks is likely the only thing that will get Festools attention to add cost to make refinements in that area. Because in general I suspect it's features and function that the vast majority of tool buyers care about, as well as price of course. That isn't to say that appearance plays no part today in the tool market, but the question for the manufacturer is how much more cost will the market bear.

macomk, if you perceived my comments as being dismissive I apologize, that was far from my intent. You're completely entitled to your own consumer product expectations, I just don't happen to agree the finish matters as much as performance especially in commercial products. And by all means return these or any products if you are dissatisfied.

 

[teocaf]

it didn't take long for wayne to cut short his sabbatical to set everyone straight on what's what.  you're absolutely right--it was not wrong for this fellow to complain.  and it wasn't wrong either for others to voice their individual opinions on a forum.  for example i took issue with incorrect analogies.  forced comparisons seem disingenuous to me and they do not provide a constructive way to deal with and try to rectify a problem.  you can throw a lot of arguments out there to support a particular claim, but if they're specious, they don't help with the original intent.

i personally find things like dissent to be far more instructive than just to have everyone parrot exactly similar views.  i view these forums as a modern manifestation of the school of Athens:  discussion, analysis, humor, arguments, theory vs. practice etc

with that in mind, welcome to the FOG macomk!  get your toga on and join us--we sincerely appreciate having you on board!  and welcome back mr. wow!