prototypes

[fshanno]

1.  Rig the Domino to work on the LR32 system.

Your idea is better than what I'm about to suggest, but if you want something right now, try this.  Use the LR32 to make two rows of 5mm holes spaced exactly 74mm apart in a thin piece of ply or MDF.  Register the 5mm pins in the face of the Domi in those holes.  This will orient the dominos perpendicular to the line of holes, which is what I would want if using dominos in place of shelf pins.  (The bit will bore right through the jig the first time it's used between each pair of holes.)

If you want this type of jig to enable you to rotate the orientation of the dominos somewhat, make a row of 5mm holes on each of two pieces of ply or mdf and join them together so they can be adjusted vertically and horizontally relative to each other.  Hard to describe what I mean, but with your imagination, you'll come up with a better idea, I'm sure.

Regards,

John

John,

That's a good idea and it is the start of another idea.  How about this........

[attachimg=1]

It's a plastic template just like drilling type.  The registration holes fit the Domi pins.  The edges of the plastic represent 37mm on the right and 64mm on the left.  The center hole is the size of the biggest possible 10mm mortise.

Plunge depth.  The template material will be 10mm thick yielding a 15mm mortise on the 25mm depth setting and so on.

This represents only a starting point.  There could be any number of templates for any number of uses.  Thanks for the inspiration.

And since it seems appropriate to philosiphy in this thread, here's how I feel about Festool.  I don't need them to care about me.  I don't want them to care about me.  They need to care about their own success and I'll worry about my success.  The products they offer and the customer service they provide are nothing more or less than a manifestation of Festool's desire for their own success, an expression of their desire to achieve their own goals.  I have no regard for Festool's success other than how it impacts my success.  I don't expect them to deal with me in any way other than that which serves their purposes and I will deal with them in a manner which only serves my purposes.  That's how I want it, clean and simple.  Festool and I will either be at cross purposes or complimentary purposes and that will be the measure of the extent to which we do business.  So far it's been complimentary, that could change tomorrow.  

The note from the Festool person is unnecessary for me, the tools and service should stand on their own.  I don't need or want any explanations about pricing.  What does the tool do, what is the price and what are the warranty and service terms.  That's all I need to know and I'll expect Festool to live up to the terms of the sale.  I have no say in the price they set, I don't have that power and I don't want it.  My power lies in my decision to buy or not buy.

For me anything else is kind of phony, like playing unpleasant games.  That's my ideal anyway.  

 

[harry_]

And since it seems appropriate to philosiphy in this thread, here's how I feel about Festool.  I don't need them to care about me.  I don't want them to care about me.  They need to care about their own success and I'll worry about my success.  The products they offer and the customer service they provide are nothing more or less than a manifestation of Festool's desire for their own success, an expression of their desire to achieve their own goals.  I have no regard for Festool's success other than how it impacts my success.  I don't expect them to deal with me in any way other than that which serves their purposes and I will deal with them in a manner which only serves my purposes.  That's how I want it, clean and simple.  Festool and I will either be at cross purposes or complimentary purposes and that will be the measure of the extent to which we do business.  So far it's been complimentary, that could change tomorrow.

Very well said!

 

[Bob Marino]

"And since it seems appropriate to philosiphy in this thread, here's how I feel about Festool.  I don't need them to care about me.  I don't want them to care about me.  They need to care about their own success and I'll worry about my success.  The products they offer and the customer service they provide are nothing more or less than a manifestation of Festool's desire for their own success, an expression of their desire to achieve their own goals.  I have no regard for Festool's success other than how it impacts my success.  I don't expect them to deal with me in any way other than that which serves their purposes and I will deal with them in a manner which only serves my purposes.  That's how I want it, clean and simple.  Festool and I will either be at cross purposes or complimentary purposes and that will be the measure of the extent to which we do business.  So far it's been complimentary, that could change tomorrow. 

The note from the Festool person is unnecessary for me, the tools and service should stand on their own.  I don't need or want any explanations about pricing.  What does the tool do, what is the price and what are the warranty and service terms.  That's all I need to know and I'll expect Festool to live up to the terms of the sale.  I have no say in the price they set, I don't have that power and I don't want it.  My power lies in my decision to buy or not buy.For me anything else is kind of phony, like playing unpleasant games.  That's my ideal anyway."

I thought awhile about posting my response. I know we are getting further away from any of the original discussion and as a dealer, I am sometimes way too verbose and should keep out because it is a no win for me. While I do respect your opinion...and I do, well, I come from a way different place.
Before I was a Festool dealer, I was a Festool customer. I bought the PS2E jigsaw at a woodworking show in Rhode Island 2001/2002?. Was I impressed with the jigsaw..and sanders....and ATF saws? You bet I was and even posted some impressions on the quality of these "new/relatively unknown" German tools. A short time later, I had to call to order blades, had some technical questions, had some ordering questions. At this point in time, Festool was in its infancy, but I did get the "feeling" they "cared". I could actually "speak" to a real person, not some some order taker 3 steps removed. My interaction with them (the Power/Powers That Be) grew, I and gained more respect with for the tools as well as the way the company was run and if that were not the case where there was a certain "atmosphere" starting at the top; I wouldn't have signed on. It was a leap of faith and out of the box thinking, not necessarily good business sense that allowed a hobbyist woodworker, Respiratory Therapist with 0 industrial contacts to be allowed to sign on.
I think all companies want to provide good service; that's simply good business. It's that, IMHO, Festool has put procedures/policies/staff in place to ensure that CS goes beyond good service as have have many other companies - Lee Valley, Lie Nielson, LL Bean, Lands End, etc., etc.. And I prefer to deal with those companies that offer what some would call "going the extra mile", some would call "caring" and some would call "it giving a rat's rear end". In dealing with such companies, as long as the quality of that product is to my satisfaction, I want to see them prosper and rewarded for such behavior...and I do with my continued business with them.
 

I don't need them to care about me.  I don't want them to care about me.  The products they offer and the customer service they provide are nothing more or less than a manifestation of Festool's desire for their own success, an expression of their desire to achieve their own goals.  I have no regard for Festool's success other than how it impacts my success.  I don't expect them to deal with me in any way other than that which serves their purposes . 

As for this particular statement, when I substitute the word "dealer" (as in me and my business) for the word "Festool" I could never operate that way, nor can I imagine any good dealer doing so. For instance,  a dealer could "achieve their own goals" (making more profit) by adding on lot's of "unnecessary accessories" to a customer's order, but would this be a dealer who "cared" for, or had the customer's best interest at heart? No way.
I swear that if the day ever comes when I stop "caring" and/or losing that customer interaction or Festool stops "caring"about their commitment to the tools and great customer service, I'm quitting and going back to Respiratory Care. At that point, I'd be glad too.
OK, off my darn soapbox.

Bob

 

[fshanno]

"And since it seems appropriate to philosiphy in this thread, here's how I feel about Festool.  I don't need them to care about me.  I don't want them to care about me.  They need to care about their own success and I'll worry about my success.  The products they offer and the customer service they provide are nothing more or less than a manifestation of Festool's desire for their own success, an expression of their desire to achieve their own goals.  I have no regard for Festool's success other than how it impacts my success.  I don't expect them to deal with me in any way other than that which serves their purposes and I will deal with them in a manner which only serves my purposes.  That's how I want it, clean and simple.  Festool and I will either be at cross purposes or complimentary purposes and that will be the measure of the extent to which we do business.  So far it's been complimentary, that could change tomorrow. 

The note from the Festool person is unnecessary for me, the tools and service should stand on their own.  I don't need or want any explanations about pricing.  What does the tool do, what is the price and what are the warranty and service terms.  That's all I need to know and I'll expect Festool to live up to the terms of the sale.  I have no say in the price they set, I don't have that power and I don't want it.  My power lies in my decision to buy or not buy.For me anything else is kind of phony, like playing unpleasant games.  That's my ideal anyway."

I thought awhile about posting my response. I know we are getting further away from any of the original discussion and as a dealer, I am sometimes way too verbose and should keep out because it is a no win for me. While I do respect your opinion...and I do, well, I come from a way different place.
Before I was a Festool dealer, I was a Festool customer. I bought the PS2E jigsaw at a woodworking show in Rhode Island 2001/2002?. Was I impressed with the jigsaw..and sanders....and ATF saws? You bet I was and even posted some impressions on the quality of these "new/relatively unknown" German tools. A short time later, I had to call to order blades, had some technical questions, had some ordering questions. At this point in time, Festool was in its infancy, but I did get the "feeling" they "cared". I could actually "speak" to a real person, not some some order taker 3 steps removed. My interaction with them (the Power/Powers That Be) grew, I and gained more respect with for the tools as well as the way the company was run and if that were not the case where there was a certain "atmosphere" starting at the top; I wouldn't have signed on. It was a leap of faith and out of the box thinking, not necessarily good business sense that allowed a hobbyist woodworker, Respiratory Therapist with 0 industrial contacts to be allowed to sign on.
I think all companies want to provide good service; that's simply good business. It's that, IMHO, Festool has put procedures/policies/staff in place to ensure that CS goes beyond good service as have have many other companies - Lee Valley, Lie Nielson, LL Bean, Lands End, etc., etc.. And I prefer to deal with those companies that offer what some would call "going the extra mile", some would call "caring" and some would call "it giving a rat's rear end". In dealing with such companies, as long as the quality of that product is to my satisfaction, I want to see them prosper and rewarded for such behavior...and I do with my continued business with them.
 

I don't need them to care about me.  I don't want them to care about me.   The products they offer and the customer service they provide are nothing more or less than a manifestation of Festool's desire for their own success, an expression of their desire to achieve their own goals.  I have no regard for Festool's success other than how it impacts my success.  I don't expect them to deal with me in any way other than that which serves their purposes . 

As for this particular statement, when I substitute the word "dealer" (as in me and my business) for the word "Festool" I could never operate that way, nor can I imagine any good dealer doing so. For instance,  a dealer could "achieve their own goals" (making more profit) by adding on lot's of "unnecessary accessories" to a customer's order, but would this be a dealer who "cared" for, or had the customer's best interest at heart? No way.
I swear that if the day ever comes when I stop "caring" and/or losing that customer interaction or Festool stops "caring"about their commitment to the tools and great customer service, I'm quitting and going back to Respiratory Care. At that point, I'd be glad too.
OK, off my darn soapbox.

Bob

Doesn't sound like you're on a soapbox.  It sounds like you're making a pitch.  And it sounds like you're a little bit afraid of what I said.  But you needn't be because we're really in agreement here.  You may not realize it but you simply restated what I said.  Does being a tool dealer bring you happiness and fulfillment?  Yes?  Then you are primarily pursuing your own self interest are you not?  And every one of the quality organizations you mention are doing the very same thing.  The customer is simply the means to that end, a welcome, essential and valued means to an end but still a means to an end.  Otherwise you are a slave.  The ONLY reason the entities you list are successful is because they care about THEMSELVES.  The quality they exhibit is the measure of their self respect and ambition.

I freely admit that I'm a freak with regard to shunning this notion of being "cared" for by a dealer.  I don't want any solicitous "caring", I don't want anybody going any extra miles.  I simply want performance and adherence to the terms of the sales agreement.  So it's probably best to just dismiss me as a some sort of weirdo and move on. 

But that is some idea about the templates for the Domino isn't it?

 

[Bob Marino]

Doesn't sound like you're on a soapbox.  It sounds like you're making a pitch.  And it sounds like you're a little bit afraid of what I said.  But you needn't be because we're really in agreement here.  You may not realize it but you simply restated what I said.  Does being a tool dealer bring you happiness and fulfillment?  Yes?  Then you are primarily pursuing your own self interest are you not?  And every one of the quality organizations you mention are doing the very same thing.  The customer is simply the means to that end, a welcome, essential and valued means to an end but still a means to an end.  Otherwise you are a slave.  The ONLY reason the entities you list are successful is because they care about THEMSELVES.  The quality they exhibit is the measure of their self respect and ambition.

I freely admit that I'm a freak with regard to shunning this notion of being "cared" for by a dealer.  I don't want any solicitous "caring", I don't want anybody going any extra miles.  I simply want performance and adherence to the terms of the sales agreement.  So it's probably best to just dismiss me as a some sort of weirdo and move on. 

But that is some idea about the templates for the Domino isn't it?

[/quote]

 Frank,

I was hoping not to make it sound like a pitch, because I didn't mean it that way..and that's what my hesitation was about and frankly why I don't jump into the mix more often.
Nah, why would I be afraid of what you said, even a little afraid? Each of us has our own opinions, but perhaps we are, like you say, more in agreement than at first blanch. When I  refer to "caring" I am not  talking about baking cookies for customers, but going beyond simple "good service" - taking the order correctly, shipping to the right address, etc. That's a given. It's poor business if they don't.  And yes, it is in their own self interest to provide the best service; it's that IMHO, those types of companies are relatively few and far between and I will reward them with my business and do want them to succeed. IMHO, maximizing profit and "caring" don't always go hand in hand; as per my example of dealers/salespeople/whomever not "overselling" customers. This may not be the best example, but it's the one freshest in my mind.  I don't see this as phony or solicitous, but that's just me.
Anyhow, no you aren't some sort of weirdo; just a man stating his opinion and yes sir, that's an incredible, helpful and inventive use of the domino. Thanks for caring enough to share!
;D [laughing] ;D

Bob

 

[wnagle]

Bob,

If your words were phony...then it would be a pitch.

Since you are sincere and honest and a man of integrity...your words and salesmanship are always helpful!

I and everyone who has done business with your really appreciates the way you do business.

Personally, I'd like to see you get known as the Festool dealer who sends cookies!!! [big grin]

See if you could design a cookie that looked like Rubin...not sure how your gonna get the holes in them.

 

[peter halle]

Wayne,

Festool does make drills don't they?  [big grin] [big grin] [big grin]

Peter

 

[wnagle]

That's true Peter... I was thinking maybe pseudo-jet stream holes (The new pattern)  ie... big chocolate chips.  ;D

 

[Sean_C_G]

" freely admit that I'm a freak with regard to shunning this notion of being "cared" for by a dealer.  I don't want any solicitous "caring", I don't want anybody going any extra miles.  I simply want performance and adherence to the terms of the sales agreement.  So it's probably best to just dismiss me as a some sort of weirdo and move on. "

Frank, with the informative contributions you've made on this forum with regard to woodworking - I'd never dismiss you as a 'weirdo.' In fact, your posts on the parallel guides helped me make up my mind to buy them, a decision I'm glad I made.

But do you think that there might be a better venue than on this thread to discuss political philosophy (objectivism)?

 

[fshanno]

Doesn't sound like you're on a soapbox.  It sounds like you're making a pitch.  And it sounds like you're a little bit afraid of what I said.  But you needn't be because we're really in agreement here.  You may not realize it but you simply restated what I said.  Does being a tool dealer bring you happiness and fulfillment?  Yes?  Then you are primarily pursuing your own self interest are you not?  And every one of the quality organizations you mention are doing the very same thing.  The customer is simply the means to that end, a welcome, essential and valued means to an end but still a means to an end.  Otherwise you are a slave.  The ONLY reason the entities you list are successful is because they care about THEMSELVES.  The quality they exhibit is the measure of their self respect and ambition.

I freely admit that I'm a freak with regard to shunning this notion of being "cared" for by a dealer.  I don't want any solicitous "caring", I don't want anybody going any extra miles.  I simply want performance and adherence to the terms of the sales agreement.  So it's probably best to just dismiss me as a some sort of weirdo and move on. 

But that is some idea about the templates for the Domino isn't it?

 Frank,

I was hoping not to make it sound like a pitch, because I didn't mean it that way..and that's what my hesitation was about and frankly why I don't jump into the mix more often.
Nah, why would I be afraid of what you said, even a little afraid? Each of us has our own opinions, but perhaps we are, like you say, more in agreement than at first blanch. When I  refer to "caring" I am not  talking about baking cookies for customers, but going beyond simple "good service" - taking the order correctly, shipping to the right address, etc. That's a given. It's poor business if they don't.  And yes, it is in their own self interest to provide the best service; it's that IMHO, those types of companies are relatively few and far between and I will reward them with my business and do want them to succeed. IMHO, maximizing profit and "caring" don't always go hand in hand; as per my example of dealers/salespeople/whomever not "overselling" customers. This may not be the best example, but it's the one freshest in my mind.  I don't see this as phony or solicitous, but that's just me.
Anyhow, no you aren't some sort of weirdo; just a man stating his opinion and yes sir, that's an incredible, helpful and inventive use of the domino. Thanks for caring enough to share!
;D [laughing] ;D

Bob
[/quote]

Well, it seemed to me that you were making a pitch, though not in the way you may think.  You're were pitching a whole mindset.  If someone was thinking about becoming a Festool dealer that's a pretty compelling and inspiring story.  You were willing to risk your future on this.  Yes, you made a pretty effective pitch, apparently without realizing it. 

But what did you see in Festool that brought you to that point?  Good people, good tools, good service.  Of course.  But it had to be more than that right?  It was the system.  The guide rails, dust collection, multi-function tables and systainers working together with all the various tools.  It's really awesome when you think about it in it's entirety.  No other tool company has such and extensive vision.  Not even production tool and CNC manufacturers.

Enough of that, back to the Domino.

Here's a little prototype of the DomiTemplate

[attachimg=1]

I made a couple of rows of holes in a piece of 1/2" melamine spaced on 32mm centers for the Domino pins.  Seems to work fine.  There are indents on the bottom plate at both pins that help with alignment.  It goes fast and it's solid, a very stable and comfortable plunge.  Obviously this is an old style Domino.  This method wouldn't work with the paddle style fence.

For casework the sky is the limit with this concept.  It represents a high degree of repeatable accuracy.  The obvious con is the loss of plunge depth.

 

[fshanno]

" freely admit that I'm a freak with regard to shunning this notion of being "cared" for by a dealer.  I don't want any solicitous "caring", I don't want anybody going any extra miles.  I simply want performance and adherence to the terms of the sales agreement.  So it's probably best to just dismiss me as a some sort of weirdo and move on. "

Frank, with the informative contributions you've made on this forum with regard to woodworking - I'd never dismiss you as a 'weirdo.' In fact, your posts on the parallel guides helped me make up my mind to buy them, a decision I'm glad I made.

But do you think that there might be a better venue than on this thread to discuss political philosophy (objectivism)?

Maybe, but it seemed like a good time.  So how did  I do?  Would Roark have been proud of me?

 

[JeromeM]

Enough of that, back to the Domino.

Here's a little prototype of the DomiTemplate

I made a couple of rows of holes in a piece of 1/2" melamine spaced on 32mm centers for the Domino pins.  Seems to work fine.  There are indents on the bottom plate at both pins that help with alignment.  It goes fast and it's solid, a very stable and comfortable plunge.  Obviously this is an old style Domino.  This method wouldn't work with the paddle style fence.

That is a nice template and by using the LR32 I would guess it was fast to make' it also  provides perfect repeatability and perfect mirroring just by using both front and back of the template [thanks] [not worthy]

For casework the sky is the limit with this concept.  It represents a high degree of repeatable accuracy.  The obvious con is the loss of plunge depth.

I would think that you could easily get the reduction in depth down to 3mm.  

There is no need for the pins to be on maximum extension. Though that would slow things down a little as you would have to make sure they were properly depressed (something my wife dose for me  [wink] [smile])

I think your jig should be pinned.

Not because of its quality or execution (though both are good) but because for those with the right kind of view point it is an inspirational idea.

Though not on this forum Niki from Poland also has superb ideas, FWIW there are a few of them in my gallery.
http://festoolownersgroup.com/CoppermineMain/thumbnails.php?album=135

 

[fshanno]

Jerome,

I was thinking 5mm.  You could set the Domino for 20mm and that would permit a 5x30 tenon, set it to 25mm and that would allow a 30mm.

Here's another thing.  If Festool wanted to do this they could market shelf hole Domino template and special bits that are just as much longer than standard bits as the thickness of the template.

Now here's another type of template.  This one for case work.  Clamp the leg of the tee to a cabinet case part and plunge away. 

[attachimg=1]

Centering on the sheet and spacing are automatic.  For a given joint the same template could be used for the mortises in the end of one piece then flipped around and used for the mortises in the face of the mating piece.

I don't know but to me this looks pretty interesting.  Festool may want to rethink the paddles.

 

[Sean_C_G]

" freely admit that I'm a freak with regard to shunning this notion of being "cared" for by a dealer.  I don't want any solicitous "caring", I don't want anybody going any extra miles.  I simply want performance and adherence to the terms of the sales agreement.  So it's probably best to just dismiss me as a some sort of weirdo and move on. "

Frank, with the informative contributions you've made on this forum with regard to woodworking - I'd never dismiss you as a 'weirdo.' In fact, your posts on the parallel guides helped me make up my mind to buy them, a decision I'm glad I made.

But do you think that there might be a better venue than on this thread to discuss political philosophy (objectivism)?

Maybe, but it seemed like a good time.  So how did  I do?  Would Roark have been proud of me?

Frank, objectivism isn't my cup of tea, but in my book, you are definitely a "prime mover!" (But maybe Roark would want to see you patent some of your inspiring ideas?) 

Thank you.

Best regards,

Sean

 

[RonMiller]

And to think that my dad said being a philosophy major in college was a waste of time.  ;D Little did he know that being a Festool fanatic would require reading Ayn Rand. Somehow I don't think the DeWalt or PC sites have these discussions. [big grin]

 

[John Stevens]

The obvious con is the loss of plunge depth.

Well, you only need 11 mm for standard shelf pins.  Do you need more if using dominos?  Assuming you're using 5mm dominos, you can plunge the bit to 20mm deep, and the template need only be 5mm thick, whether you're using ply, acrylic, aluminum sheet or the like.  BTW, thanks for making one of my daydreams reality.  One of these days I'll have to make one myself.

Regards,

John

 

[John Stevens]

Now here's another type of template.  This one for case work.  Clamp the leg of the tee to a cabinet case part and plunge away.

Put something on the ends to register the template to the edges of the workpiece and you've saved more setup time.  Seems like a great idea for those who do a lot of work with standard-sized or semi-custom cabinets.  Thanks for sharing.

Regards,

John

 

[Kevin Stricker]

The templates sound interesting, but can't you just adapt your domino to the LR32 base plate like Jerry Work did and save a step?  Also the case template seems repetitive, as using the indexing pins you get instant alignment off your last mortice without having a template in the way.  What am I missing?

 

[JeromeM]

The templates sound interesting, but can't you just adapt your domino to the LR32 base plate like Jerry Work did and save a step?  Also the case template seems repetitive, as using the indexing pins you get instant alignment off your last mortice without having a template in the way.  What am I missing?

What am I missing?
For the first template
1) you are not limited to a factor of 32
2) you can have exact permanent instant registration
3) by adjusting the template thickness you can have different fixed depths of cut.

For the second template
1) the spacing is whatever you want with perfect repeatability
2) the problem some machines/people have with the fence slipping is eliminated
3) setting the fence is no longer needed so it is easy to center mortices if you want to.
4) that it is an example of concept rather than the way it shall be done
5) mortices will always be at 90 degrees

These are just the first few things that spring to mind. YMMV

 

[John Stevens]

The templates sound interesting, but can't you just adapt your domino to the LR32 base plate like Jerry Work did and save a step?

Hi, Kevin.  Certainly, you could do that.  But the template will be faster because it requires less setup time.

Also the case template seems repetitive, as using the indexing pins you get instant alignment off your last mortice without having a template in the way.

It's not usually practical to index off the pins of the mating pieces for case work.  First, you don't need the dominos spaced that close together.  Second, even if you did, you can't index off the pins if the mortises are set to the narrowest setting on one piece and to a wider setting on the other piece.  If you try that, you'll see that the mortises get progressively more misaligned from one side to the other.  Think about it mathematically:

At the narrow setting, the mortise is W millimeters wide.  The space between the pins is 74mm, so the spacing of the mortises will be 74+1/2W mm on center.

At the next wider setting, the mortise is W+N millimeters wide.  The spacing of those mortises will be 74+1/2(W+N) mm on center.

Every time you register the domino off the wider mortise, you're adding N millimeters to the center-to-center distance of the mortises.  If you register the domino four times off wider mortises, you get 1/2N misalignment on the first one, N misalignment on the second, 1.5N misalignment on the third and 2N misalignment on the fourth.  This would be typical for, say, a base cabinet with five dominos at each joint, the first pair bored at the narrowest setting on both sides for alignment, and the other four pairs bored at the narrow setting on one piece and a wider setting on the other piece to make it easier to assemble.

You can avoid the misalignment by using pencil marks, but it's time consuming to lay out marks.  The template saves you the time of making the marks.

You can use pins and theoretically avoid misalignment by only using the narrowest setting on both of the mating pieces, but then:  (1) you're most likely going to have a very difficult time getting the pieces together due to the tight tolerances of the holes and dominos (try it); and (2) you're boring more holes and using more dominos than you'd need to if you used marks or the template.

Regards,

John