PSA: Firmware upgrade released for BP 18 Li 5,2 ASI

[Paul_HKI]

how on earth does updating the firmware work?  So very confused.

You just pair the battery with your phone, same as with a car-kit, BT headset etc.

Launch the app and update the battery.  It takes 2 minutes or thereabouts to complete.

So, that is ridiculous.  I've never had anything bluetooth need an update.  A power tool and a phone should never have anything to do with each other.  Those without smart phones or unwilling to install random apps on them are going to be angry.

At least items like cameras, it's drag and drop a file with a memory card, power up the camera and it does it.  No specific computer requirements, OS requirements, app requirements, etc.  Maybe festool could have had the batteries have a USB port or such on them where they could be mounted and a person could just download the firmware file, drop it in there, unmount it and be done.

No idea what a "car kit" is.

Car kit?  The old version of a BT Handsfree setup in your car, truck, whatever.  Think Nokia or a Parrot hands-free setup, or built in BT in your car stereo these days.  Sorry, lost in translation I guess.

It's incredible how easily people get annoyed about things when they're able to do more, optionally, with something they've already bought and at zero cost.

If you don't want to update your battery firmware, don't.  Nobody, including Festool, is insisting on it.  ;D

 

[xedos]

When my battery tools need software upgrades (especially the batteries) I have to seriously questions the designer's and engineer's competency in the first place.

I disagree with the "upgrade" notion.  Especially this soon in the product life.  Those features were left out initially.  And again, call into question the competency of the PM's.    I expect better from a top tier manuf.

 

[Paul_HKI]

When my battery tools need software upgrades (especially the batteries) I have to seriously questions the designer's and engineer's competency in the first place.

I disagree with the "upgrade" notion.  Especially this soon in the product life.  Those features were left out initially.  And again, call into question the competency of the PM's.    I expect better from a top tier manuf.

I think it's becoming increasingly clear to me that some people have poor grasp of modern technologies and how they work and this is combined with a complete cognitive disconnect in relation to how an update or upgrade can enhance and extend the functionality way beyond what was originally in scope for delivery.  In such cases, I'd argue that the designer and engineer probably have a better understanding of their competency than folks who don't understand the fundamental realities of their equipment in hand.


I'm not a betting man, but I'd wager that the same folks who want to object to this technology use have their Smart TV's, Ring doorbells, Alexa or HomePod kit running auto-updates, their mac or PC's regularly get updated with patches and updates, they'll install new versions of iOS and Android and eventually change their smart phones to benefit from new features and that they do all those things with much greater frequency than they'll change out their power tools.  When their truck or car goes for annual servicing/maintenance, they'll expect that whatever software runs on the range of ECU's will be updated.  They'll applaud every enhancement of the battery life, the improved performance sometimes provided, the improved user experience overall.  But for some reason, they'll struggle to comprehend that the BT tech used in their Festool kit is the same basic type of technology, so they'll think it should be immune to the occasional need or incentive to update the underlying software.


If someone wants to buy a Bluetooth equipped ANYTHING, they should at least consider that this is a protocol standards based radio frequency device, attractive for the very reason that it will support data exchange.  It's not just a wireless remote.  It's a device that uses essentially a radio frequency transceiver with a software configurable component to enable a range of functionality via data exchange.  Configurability and software upgradability is a pretty useful thing to have, even if you don't ever decide to employ those capabilities.  Remember, the choice is yours, something it appears some folks are really struggling to understand. 

If people want to really dumb it down and think of it as remote control, go ahead.  But if you want to ensure that the premium tools and accessories you've spent your hard earned on continue to evolve rather than remain as a 'point in time' set of capabilities, you'll have to update the firmware when the platform evolves to the point where the old firmware version doesn't support the new capability. 

Or you can just ignore this thread and use it like a pretty expensive good old fashioned power tool.  Which is also perfectly fine.

 

[Ron B]

'Or use it like a pretty expensive good old fashioned power tool" I like that one. 

Thanks-that is what I am going to do.  But right now I have to go saddle up my horse. 

What I am going to do is replace my NEST thermostat with the old original with the mercury switch.  I got tired of the NEST one turning itself off in the Southern Ohio humidity this summer.  Technology is fine up till it controls you instead of you controlling it and we have reached that point.  I am more of a "hit a nail with  a hammer" guy because I can see it work because I see the nail move when I hit it. 

I have reached a point that I like simplicity.   

 

[DeformedTree]

I think it's becoming increasingly clear to me that some people have poor grasp of modern technologies and how they work and this is combined with a complete cognitive disconnect in relation to how an update or upgrade can enhance and extend the functionality way beyond what was originally in scope for delivery.  In such cases, I'd argue that the designer and engineer probably have a better understanding of their competency than folks who don't understand the fundamental realities of their equipment in hand.

No, people understand it very well, the point being made is that this should not be happening. Updates are not an improvement, they are fixing flaws in the base design, they are showing that the future was not well considered, it shows the tech changes to often to be used in products. Rare is an instance of a real improvement, and the few of those does not justify this. Or as happens products get downgrade (famous apple battery situations), MS windows making things worse,  etc.

[size=1em]
I'm not a betting man, but I'd wager that the same folks who want to object to this technology use have their Smart TV's, Ring doorbells, Alexa or HomePod kit running auto-updates, their mac or PC's regularly get updated with patches and updates, they'll install new versions of iOS and Android and eventually change their smart phones to benefit from new features and that they do all those things with much greater frequency than they'll change out their power tools.  When their truck or car goes for annual servicing/maintenance, they'll expect that whatever software runs on the range of ECU's will be updated. 

No, these people do not own smart tv's, rings, homepods, etc.  They might not own smart phones. They turn off auto updates. They do not buy products that do these things. They value good tech advances and well made products. They do not value internet dependency, buggy products, etc.

The message being sent is that if you are a company like Festool, and your products start having software updates, people will be even less likely to buy your products. The Festool battery system is all ready a really hard sell, why make it harder to sell people on?

 

[Paul_HKI]

No, people understand it very well, the point being made is that this should not be happening. Updates are not an improvement, they are fixing flaws in the base design, they are showing that the future was not well considered, it shows the tech changes to often to be used in products. Rare is an instance of a real improvement, and the few of those does not justify this. Or as happens products get downgrade (famous apple battery situations), MS windows making things worse,  etc.

I really don't know how else to put this, but let me try, again.  You don't need to update your battery firmware.  You can just connect the battery to the tool and use it.  As is.  Fire away. 

Or you can see a new functionality that's been implemented with a new tool, an update the app, and enabled via the BT interface of the battery and decide to update your battery to take advantage of something that's there, ready for you to use if you want it.

But that's entirely your choice.  You don't need to get on that horse.  But you can if you like.  If you don't want to, don't act as though someone's forcing you to.  They're not.

No, these people do not own smart tv's, rings, homepods, etc.  They might not own smart phones. They turn off auto updates. They do not buy products that do these things. They value good tech advances and well made products. They do not value internet dependency, buggy products, etc.

I don't believe you.  I think if you stop and consider what you're saying, you'd hardly believe yourself either.  BT connectivity is not internet dependency.  To suggest that the folks who are here on FOG don't have Netflix, Prime or whatever on their set top boxes, on their consoles, on their flat screen LED TV's?  Absolute nonsense.  That's simply not true.  There are a few who won't, sure.  But the majority, they do.  Those who don't, re-read the first point above.  It's not mandatory.  If you're a technophobe, suspicious and cynical of the motives of tech firms and whatnot, think of it as a remote, use it the way it worked when you bought it, and ignore the progress.  And pretend your phone doesn't update, your WiFi router doesn't update, your computer/laptop etc don't update.  Pretend that everything just always works the way it did when you bought it.  And forget all about the way tech evolves.  Leave that for someone else to worry about.  Or to take advantage of.  Not your circus, not your monkeys.

The message being sent is that if you are a company like Festool, and your products start having software updates, people will be even less likely to buy your products. The Festool battery system is all ready a really hard sell, why make it harder to sell people on?

I'd expect most folks won't care.  They'll buy the tools, buy the batteries and use them.  Many will go the whole life of the tool with no issues, completely oblivious to the availability of new features, more value, right there in that package they paid for already.  If that makes them happy, that's great for them. 

For me, and for a whole heap of others, I'm pleased to see the technology under continuous development.  As long as it keeps working and doing its basic job (being a battery first, with connectivity and IoT capabilities etc second), that's the job well done, with the rest being a bonus on top.

I'm going to say something else now that may be a factor in this.  I can use the Work App.  It's not perfect, but it's a great start.  I can avail of these new features because they're available to me, so that's given me the chance to get hands on with the tech and use it.  I don't just have opinions, rather, I have opinions informed by actual experience.  That means I'll look at this differently to those who just hate on the tech and who haven't actually used it yet. 

I suspect both views are the polar opposite ends of a wide spectrum of opinions about such matters.  The great thing about all of this is that you can hold that opinion and just ignore this stuff, as I can hold my opinion and embrace it.  We'll both get what we want by doing that.  In the middle will be the majority of Festool users, many of whom are tech-savvy users and owners who will not think twice about using this kit in whatever form and with whatever features it includes at their buy-in point. 

They'll pair their batteries, set up their alerts and get on with their day.  The same way they do with every other piece of tech they use day in and day out.  The more time passes, the more seamless the implementation of this tech will become, with every eventuality that the firmware updates will be configurable to just auto-apply, without anyone having to give it a moments thought.

There will always be those who think it's going to need an internet connection or something like that or else the tools won't work.  That's not how this stuff works.  There will be those who think their battery will be bricked by a failed update, but that's also not how firmware updates work.  There are those who think that this will be a hard sell, but that's just not how this will work.  The folks who think like that aren't really the ones who will ever knowingly benefit from the ADDITIONAL capability and functionality this serves to provide, so their opinions really won't carry the weight to stop an innovative manufacturer from serving those for whom it will. 

Just wait and see.  It won't be long before there's an Apple Watch version of the Work App.  Existing trades and hobby users alike will jump at it.  M class alerts, thermal alerts, charge and proximity alerts..  It's all only a matter of time.

And as I'm constantly pointing out, you can just put the battery in the tool and use it and ignore all of it if you don't care.  If the battery does the job today, it'll do the job as a battery in the future.  The rest is something extra for those of us who want to use it.

 

[squall_line]

Aside from merely keeping up with the competition, I'm guessing that Festool's upper management has calculated the potential loss of sales to the anti-technology crowd with the potential gain of sales to the pro-technology crowd, and made a decision that the gains will out-weigh the losses in the long term, if not the short as well.

And based on most of Festool's recent promotions and their current social media presence I would feel safe saying that their target growth market is Gen X, Gen Y, and younger.

Gen X is old enough to afford nice(r) tools and is young enough to have grown up with a decent amount of technology.

Gen Y was coming of age as smartphones and Facebook were becoming part of culture.

Gen Z and later were basically born online and fully integrated into the Matrix.

To these growth markets, technology is something to be embraced, not shunned.

As a late-Gen-X, I don't have a dog in the fight either way, other than to say that I love the convenience that Bluetooth remotes and batteries offer in integration with the dust extractors but I'm also not looking to sell off any of my non-Bluetooth batteries just to replace them with Bluetooth versions (since I have plenty of the latter).  Also, since you can't make a brushless motor work efficiently or effectively without electronics, I'll take brushless over brushed, even if I keep one or two brushed pieces of gear in my kit for after the next solar flare.

 

[Spandex]

So, are the people who are opposed to battery firmware updates saying that they would rather they had to buy a whole new battery every time a new piece of Bluetooth functionality they wanted came out??

Or is the idea that Festool should include every piece of functionality known to man up front, and then shut down the software department because their work is complete, never to be improved upon?

 

[Ron B]

So, are the people who are opposed to battery firmware updates saying that they would rather they had to buy a whole new battery every time a new piece of Bluetooth functionality they wanted came out??

Or is the idea that Festool should include every piece of functionality known to man up front, and then shut down the software department because their work is complete, never to be improved upon?

I cannot imagine there has been 22 "improvements" that benefit me.  When my computer "updates" I seem to always have trouble afterwards with getting the settings correct again.  I therefore try to avoid the computer updates as long as possible. I usually think the computer updates are the software engineers playing with the backdoors to the computer, and are more about information gathering than customer enhancement.  In that case I mean enhancement for me, but I know their real customers are the people they gather my (and your) information to. 

So no, I will not be updating my batteries.  I just need my Bluetooth batteries to turn my dust extractor off and on.  If updates are so important, do the dealers go through their inventory and update all the batteries every time there is an update change? Or Festool could do a battery recall, where they pay all costs and we return the batteries to them to be "updated".  I bet that would cut down on the number of updates.

 

[Spandex]

I cannot imagine there has been 22 "improvements" that benefit me.

Possibly not. But they may benefit others. My question was more towards the people who seemed to be annoyed that the updates existed, as though getting free, completely optional updates was somehow worse than getting no updates.

When my computer "updates" I seem to always have trouble afterwards with getting the settings correct again.  I therefore try to avoid the computer updates as long as possible.

This is an extremely bad idea. The vast majority of OS updates for you computer will contain security patches, without which your computer is potentially vulnerable to attack. It is, of course, your choice whether to update your computer or not. But your reasoning is flawed and that make me concerned that you’re not making an informed choice.

So no, I will not be updating my batteries.  I just need my Bluetooth batteries to turn my dust extractor off and on.  If updates are so important, do the dealers go through their inventory and update all the batteries every time there is an update change? Or Festool could do a battery recall, where they pay all costs and we return the batteries to them to be "updated".  I bet that would cut down on the number of updates.

No one is claiming these battery updates are all important. But they’re free, and optional, so I can’t see how they can be a bad thing.

If Festool offered to update our hardware for free when they created new features, I doubt anyone would be complaining that they should have just thought of these features before they made it in the first place. So why is software any different?

 

[Ron B]

This is an extremely bad idea. The vast majority of OS updates for you computer will contain security patches, without which your computer is potentially vulnerable to attack. It is, of course, your choice whether to update your computer or not. But your reasoning is flawed and that make me concerned that you’re not making an informed choice.

I understand your concern.  That is why I have one computer offline where I do my spreadsheets and financial information.  Since it is offline, it never gets updated and it cannot be hacked.  The software is older, which is nice-not so many bells and whistles that prevent you from making little changes.  Yes, I can still write macros on the off-line computer, but I have given up on the newer versions.  So I just keep my important info offline. 

 

[Spandex]

well, an air-gapped computer is certainly a choice, and you seem happy to live with the limitations that brings.

However, your initial comment seemed to relate to computers that were capable of receiving updates (i.e. internet-connected), as you said you deliberately delayed carrying out the updates. Given that some people reading may not be technically savvy, I think it’s important to make sure they understand the huge risks this creates.

That’s all slightly off topic, however if Festool ever put out a security update for their batteries (Bluetooth is, after all, a wireless communication protocol with various security features to prevent unauthorised access) I’d also recommend people upgraded whether they liked the idea of battery firmware updates or not.

 

[mino]

So, that is ridiculous.  I've never had anything bluetooth need an update.  ...

I think you need to step back and correct your interpretation of the situation here.

What you are saying is actually that the manufacturer of "anything Bluetooth you had" DID NOT CARE to provide an update.

There is a reason computer hackers make fun of most Bluetooth kit - the protocol is complicated and holes are found in the firmwares of various devices all he time. Bluetooth is a prime attack vector when enabled on a laptop/phone. Unupdated/unpatched device which you use for data access is just calling for being used by your neighbors script kiddie to make fun of you ... which would be the better scenario.

That said, with batteries we do not have the security concern for the most part - they do not have any authority over your phone under normal circumstances.

Onto Festool:

So, that is ridiculous.  I've never had anything Bluetooth need an update.  ...

As stated in the text walls above, that a manufacturer makes a software update available does NOT (necessarily) mean it is "needed".

One can always forego the addl. functionality the updates provide or go out and buy a new battery which will be TPC-aware etc.

Besides, how else the batteries (manufactured before TPC/TDC existed) can be made aware of the special functions on those tools ... precognition possibly ?