Question for Brice or any other finish chippy's here

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neoshed

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Sep 30, 2007
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I've got some millwork to do for this first shed unit. The inner casings of the windows are pine and my client has requested all the interior wood trim to match (as close as possible).

I need to encase the ridge beam along with making to false beams. These are meant to look like they're a solid piece of lumber although obviously they wont be. My thoughts were to make a 3 sided casing out of 1/2 or 3/4 lumber with a mitre joint on the bottom. These would be glued/ brads at the joint and then pocket screwed on the inside.

Would pocket screws be ok for a softwood joint like this? I'm a bit concerned that the screw might want to pull out. I've never had the need so far to use pocket screws so my experience is nil.
 
  Patrick, I'm not tried pocket screws on a mitered joint before, you might want to try a test piece first. In general, pocket screws work fine in soft wood. Pocket screws come in fine threads and coarse threads, fine being for hard woods and coarse for soft. I'd skip the brads/pins and just use glue and pocket screws if it works in mitered joints. I'll make up a quick test piece if no one chimes in on the subject.
 
  After a little thought about pocket screws on a miter, I believe it won't work, and after a test, I can confirmed, it doesn't work. I'd use the Domino, I know it works because I have used it on miters before. If you don't have a Domino you could try a biscuit joiner or the easiest thing may be to glue a nail it.
 
Woodenfish said:
Patrick, A pockethole miter joints graining gets interrupted with a bevel so it really does not look like a true miter which would give you the look of a solid piece of lumber.

Our friends at McFeeley's have it illustrated here ---> http://www.mcfeelys.com/tech/pocket-hole.htm
Click to expand...

Notice in the McFeely's site the miter shown is not a 90 degree corner, trying to make a miter joints with pocket screws would take some sort of jig to help hold the pieces together to drive the screws and not have the pieces move. And you'd have to make sure the pockets drilled aren't too deep and the screws too long. I think its too much of a hassle. If someone have experience doing this please chime in.
 
Thanks for the replies. I didn't think it through well enough I guess as I didn't think about the screw going into the mitre itself. I intially thought about a lock mitre joint but the more I've read about it the more I don't think it's something I can do on a router table with a 14' plank.

Unfortunately I don't have a domino so that's out of the question. I have a crappo biscuit joiner which I could try I guess.

The only other thing I can think of is trying a butt joint where the bottom sits between the side pieces and hope that the joint isn't visible from the underside.
 
neoshed said:
........The only other thing I can think of is trying a butt joint where the bottom sits between the side pieces and hope that the joint isn't visible from the underside.
Click to expand...

If thats the case, pocket screws are perfect.
 
Hi,

            I think the butt joint will be visible even on the side.  I would go with the miter.    If the client wants a rustic look it would be an exceuse to buy the HL850.

Seth
 
neoshed said:
Unfortunately I don't have a domino so that's out of the question. I have a crappo biscuit joiner which I could try I guess.
Click to expand...

If you don't want to use biscuits have you considered running a spline the length of the miter joint?  That would add strength in addition to helping with alignment.
 
I have tried using pocket hole joinery with a miter, it doesn't work, at least when I tried it with 3/4" material. Like earlier poster have stated, a butt joint with pocket screws should look fine, if you're dead set on a miter I'd recommend (like previous posters have recommended) either a continuous spline, biscuits, or Dominoes. Or, what about just gluing the works together and letting it set for a few days, depending on how thick your material is and what kind of glue you use, often that glued joint is stronger than the solid wood around it. I've glued 1x poplar boards together, then tried to rip them apart, and more often than not the 1x board splits somewhere other than the glued joint. Another option to consider?...... I wish you a great outcome on your project, I'd love to see pics once you're done!  :)
 
Glue will hold that joint better than a pocket screw would. If you can get the pocket screw to bite and not spin it may be nice for holding the joint tight until the glue dries.

I also think a butt joint is the way to go. Then you can pocket screws and glue and it will be rock solid. If you have a Domino go for it.

I am confused though, you are talking about a bevel joint correct, not a miter?

You can certainly make a miter joint with pocket screws like for a square frame(just use a 90 clamps to prevent slippage),  I have done it loads of times. But for a bevel joint there just is not enough bite.

Nickao

A miter is a cut (at an angle other than 90 degrees) along the length of width of the material, such as the kind you would make at the corners of a picture frame.

A bevel is a cut (at an angle other than 90 degrees) along the thickness of the material, like making a boxed column with no end grain visible.

 
nickao said:
Glue will hold that joint better than a pocket screw would. If you can get the pocket screw to bite and not spin it may be nice for holding the joint tight until the glue dries.

I also think a butt joint is the way to go. Then you can pocket screws and glue and it will be rock solid. If you have a Domino go for it.

I am confused though, you are talking about a bevel joint correct, not a miter?

You can certainly make a miter joint with pocket screws like for a square frame(just use a 90 clamps to prevent slippage),  I have done it loads of times. But for a bevel joint there just is not enough bite.

Nickao

A miter is a cut (at an angle other than 90 degrees) along the length of width of the material, such as the kind you would make at the corners of a picture frame.

A bevel is a cut (at an angle other than 90 degrees) along the thickness of the material, like making a boxed column with no end grain visible.
Click to expand...

Ah, yes, I was referring to pocket screwing a bevel.  :)
 
Bevel shmevel, I just call it a long grain miter. If you do a long grain miter joint no other fasteners are necessary but you will need to be able to clamp the joint together while the glue sets. Polyurethane glue will give you the necessary open time to accomplish this. You will need to make 2 (L-shaped in cross section cauls) the length of the joints and since it is a 3 sided box you will need a filler piece to keep the sides of the box beam apart when you sinch down web clamps around the box. The cauls will protect the points of your bevels and spread out the clamping pressure. They also have the added benefit of automaticaly aligning the points of the bevels perfectly. Cut your bevels at slightly over 45 deg. to ensure a super tight miter. Check out my post in member projects to see mitered columns assembled this way. You can also rabbet the joints for an almost inconspicuos joint.

Eiji
 
I just added a pictorial of the miter and clamping method I used on the columns and beams. Member projects.
 
      I'd use a 45 degree lock miter for a job like that.  You'll have to rout the edges but it makes a clean looking, nice strong joint.  It helps with alignment and gives more surface area for gluing (not that you really need it).  You can use pocket hole screws  on a 45 but not a 90 when joining 2 pieces.  You just wouldn't want to use a lot of them (mainly for clamping and holding until the glue sets).  You have to run a screw part way in to tap the hole and then take it out and put a cut-off (~3/8") into the hole and snug up.  If you don't use a cut of screw in 3/4" stock you'd better keep your finger away from the other side.  :)  Yes this is experience talking.

Whitside Bits Catalog

Chris...
 
Thanks again for the advice.

As these casings are 14' long I have some reservations about doing too much with the edge. I originally considered a lock mitre joint but the more I read about them the more it seemed like something that would be difficult to do with a small router table. The spline idea may well work but I'm not sure of being able to get a consistent cut pushing 14' through a TS.

Eiji, I'll have a look at your pics for tips. Cheers.

While I'm on this subject, I spoke to Marvin to find out the wood they use for the inner casings. I was told they use Radiata Pine (never heard of it) so does anyone here know if its easy to find? I live in MD close to WV VA and PA .

After looking it up it appears it's also known as Monterey Pine.

After this unit is built I'm going to insist on all trim to be white paint finish so I don't have to deal with this :)
 
Hey,
Radiata pine can be found at homedepot, it looks like a knot less pine which is nice for finishing and in general much cheaper than Maple, poplar and oak

hope this help
cheers
 
Eiji F said:
Bevel shmevel, I just call it a long grain miter. If you do a long grain miter joint no other fasteners are necessary but you will need to be able to clam

Eiji
Click to expand...

Eiji it is not a long grain miter, I don't care what you call it, it's a bevel joint. A long grain miter is still a miter, but with the grain going with the direction of the cut as opposed to across the grain as in a usual picture frame.

If someone needs help we need to know what they need help with.

The proper terms need to be used. I was scratching my head for 30 minuets trying to figure out what the heck he was talking about. When I read a miter can not be pocket screwed, I am thinking what the heck are they talking about, of course it can. There is a big difference and using the wrong term in this case only causes undue confusion.

If someone were describing a compound angle for crown molding it would be pretty confusing calling the two angles, the miter adjustment and then the bevel adjustment, the "other" miter adjustment.

Nickao

 
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