Question for Brice or any other finish chippy's here

[nickao]

No apology required at all!

Are those rafters wood. They look so white they almost look like some other material?

Looks good!

Nickao

I have boxed a lot of beams and over time the long bevel seams tend to open up, where a boxed beam with a reveal hides any shrinkage.

 

[neoshed]

The walls and roof are SIP's panels mate. I was the first to offer outdoor buildings in this country using them (although one of my competitors is now offering them....coincidently  : ) We got all the walls and the 2 roof panels up in about 6 hours.

You can see the ridge beam that I have to do the casing for and I have to create a false beam on either side of the door opening.

 

[nickao]

Cool! So these come pre insulated and holes for electric etc, already complete, right? Are they very heavy to get up top?

Nickao

 

[neoshed]

There are horizontal chases at 16 and 42 and a vertical chase every so often. The walls are R17 and the roof panels are R25.

The wall panels aren't too heavy but the roof panels can be. I have 2 at the front that are wider than the ones shown at the rear. We got the first one up and when puting the opposite one up it slipped off the beam and came crashing down. Unfortunately I was up against the the wall corner at the time and had the whole thing smack me square on the thigh. I'm still limping and bruised  I worked it out to be about 300 lbs in weight for those particular roof panels.

When it comes tim eto put the unit up on site I'm going to attach a pair of sleepers either side of the beam so there's a bit more meat there for the panel to rest on.

 

[Michael Kellough]

      I'd use a 45 degree lock miter for a job like that.  You'll have to rout the edges but it makes a clean looking, nice strong joint.   It helps with alignment and gives more surface area for gluing (not that you really need it).  You can use pocket hole screws  on a 45 but not a 90 when joining 2 pieces.  You just wouldn't want to use a lot of them (mainly for clamping and holding until the glue sets).  You have to run a screw part way in to tap the hole and then take it out and put a cut-off (~3/8") into the hole and snug up.  If you don't use a cut of screw in 3/4" stock you'd better keep your finger away from the other side.     Yes this is experience talking.

Whitside Bits Catalog

Chris...

I like the lock miter suggestion. It makes a very strong joint and vastly simplifies clamping.

It can be difficult to maintain the proper alignment to the router fence on very long stock but if it is solid wood sanding nack to conformity isn't a problem.

With solid wood you can even deliberatly offset the alignment so that you get an overhang that you just flush cut back and then run a champher bit over the square corner so the actual miter is offset and you get still farther away from the mitered box effect.

On the other hand, if it isn't too difficult to match the figure of the wood go ahead and butt join the stuff and use the pocket hole screws.

 

[Warrior]

nickao,

I just have never heard the term bevel jointed beam, beveled beam, bevel jointed column. I have heard and read the terms mitered box beam, mitered columns etc. And since I have had no teacher in woodworking all of my knowledge is from reading and experience. I have done a hell of a lot of research and reading about woodworking and carpentry and a long grain miter is always refered as that. maybe I missed it but I still say, bevel schmevel. ;D

I definately know what a bevel is. I just have never heard the term "bevel joint".

Eiji

 

[dirtydeeds]

box the beam, make sure sides butt down against the soffit. put a bead joint at the butted edges creating a shaddow

that way you cant see into the butt joint from below, its hidden in shaddow and any differential movement between soffit and sides is hidden because the eye is drawn to the bead first

there is an added bonus to treating a beam in this way (in england anyway) it is fairly traditional

the beams in half timbered houses in medieval times were rough sawn as peoples standard of living improved a carpenter would be brought in to clean up and carve the beams, the bowtel moulding is medieval and was carved onto the arrises of solid timber beams

the modern version of a bowtel moulding is a bead

 

[dirtydeeds]

ps a bead joint leaves enough meat in the timber to take biscuits at a butt joint

if your client wants sharp arrises you will have to look at one of the methods above

a rustic look can be achieved by "distressing" the beams (boxes) so it looks rough, hacked and hammered, but dont use a round head hammer, it has to be square faced and flat to look more authentic 

an aged worn look can be achieved with the festool noted above

 

[neoshed]

Interesting ideas DD.

As this is meant to be a "modern" design (1950's modern) the beam casing should be as clean and simple as possible. The original design intent on my part was to replicate the Eichler houses from the 50's. All the beams and trim work were painted white. This particular one threw a spanner in the works when the client requested a natural finish.

Putting a modernist twist on your idea I'm considering the idea of actually recessing the soffit by 1/4 - 1/2 inch but I need to run that concpet by the client.

I may go out and get a lock mitre bit and have a play with some scrap and see how well I can get it to work. Failing that I guess I'll set up a clamping arrangement and use a regular bevel joint / glue / pin nails.

 

[dirtydeeds]

neoshed

quite correct 1950s needs perfect arrises and to be square AND they need to be white

however the customer wants varnish, thats going to cost unless he/they will accept some compromise

in my experience clear varnish finished white wood demands more skill to install than even stained work, poor joints show as dark, and ANY timber movement shows like a bastd

these are only my thoughts

if you are going down your route, can i say that first your recessed soffit will not look like a beam

and any inperfection or movement in either of the two visible joints is shoved RIGHT into your eyeline from below

its a bit like looking INTO a pair of paralell coped joints, you may be testing providence

so im suggesting the opposite, make your soffit wider (by 1/2 or so)

it then looks more like a steel or composite beam

the wider soffit then hides the two butt joints in shadow and well out of the eyeline from below.

im not at the sharp end so its easy for me to make comments (and im a good 4000 miles away : )

you are at the sharp end and have to make the descions

 

[Brice Burrell]

Eiji, technically, I think, Nick is right, its a bevel. Meaning the cut is, in this case, a long bevel. Thanks for pointing that out Nick. Remember, the first step to learning is calling things by their right names.

 

[Chuck Kiser]

And here, all this time, I thought a miter or a bevel was the relationship of the work piece on the saw.

 

[Brice Burrell]

And here, all this time, I thought a miter or a bevel was the relationship of the work piece on the saw.

OK, how would you cut a mitered/beveled beam joint, cut it with a circular saw (bevel), on the table saw (bevel), jigsaw (bevel).........  ;D

 

[nickao]

No the technical definition does not have to do with the orientation in relation to the saw, but the orientation of the cut to the grain of the wood.

I do agree when the boxed column is completed they are commonly call mitered columns. But the actual wood working joint used to connect the four pieces on their edges is a bevel joint.

If the definition depended on the relation to the saw it would be awfully hard to describe the joint in any kind of how to or explain with words to anyone else.

The saw orientation can change, the wood grain is constant. You either cut across the grain or with the grain. No matter how it is cut on the saw the definition of the final outcome of the joint cut stays the same then.

Nickao

 

[dirtydeeds]

the ballon is going to go up  :  ;D

brice is correct a long mitre is a bevel

nickao, what you are describing is a BUTTED bevel joint         

there are many other bevel joints

some examples............. mitred hidden dovetail, splined mitre, biscuited mitre, mitred lock joint

when it comes to chop saws the meaning of "mitre" and "bevel" are very different

remember crown can be cut flat or against a beveled bed, so in the case of a chop saw these terms refer specifically to the relation blade            to the bed and fence of the chop saw  and not to the orientation of the timber

remember even miter is spelt differently  ;D

 

[neoshed]

DD,
You're absolutely right about the pitfalls of a varnished finish. If I we're a veteran chippy I wouldn't be AS concerned about it as I am. I'm good as a woodworker but I'm not a cabinetmaker (yet).

I may try to talk the client out of the varnish finish but I'm not holding my breath that he'll agree. If I can get him to come around I'll go get some windsor one trim boards for it.

To everyone else here stateside, does anyone know of a decent source for the sheet wainscot board?

 

[nickao]

the ballon is going to go up  :  ;D

when it comes to chop saws the meaning of "mitre" and "bevel" are very different

remember crown can be cut flat or against a beveled bed, so in the case of a chop saw these terms refer specifically to the relation blade            to the bed and fence of the chop saw  and not to the orientation of the timber

remember even miter is spelt differently  ;D

You are talking about the blade at a mitered angle, but then it actually cuts a bevel because the crown is at an angle already. Fine, but the resulting cut is still called a bevel, even if you used the saw at a mitered angle to make the cut.

If you take the wood you cut and walk across the hall and tell no one how you cut them, the bevel and miter cuts are not defined by the saw orientation, but how you perceive them in your hand. You may not even know how they were cut.

Then looking at both cuts and angles the one across the grain is the miter and the one with or into/away  from the grain is the bevel, irregardless how or what you called them at the saw. Its just the definition of a miter and bevel. If you described them any other way you would mix up the joints.

 

[Warrior]

Hehe, I bevel my boards to join them in a miter.

 

[dirtydeeds]

nickao

there was always the possibility i was going to be caught out on crown, in england it generally a plasterers job so i dont get to do it often and then its in gyproc

were i was comming from with relationship between the blade and the bed and fence is as follows

the mitre angle on a chop saw is altered by changing the angle of the blade to the fence (the most used)

and the bevel angle is altered by altering the angle of the blade to the bed

this a serious question so i can get my head round crown....... so i need your help to vision it

(its ok i understand the upside down and backwards)

if you cut crown already set at a bevel, you set the mitre angle then the bevel angle as i describe above (in which case you need big diameter saw blades)

however if you lay the crown on face (so you can use smaller diameter blades), do you not also have to set the mitre and bevel angles the opposite way round

the reason for the question is that my crown would be cut on a small diameter chopsaw (unless i had the kappex)

 

[dirtydeeds]

this is a genuine serious question

i have a job comming up whereby i have to replace a "cantilevered and hung" flat roof canopy over a front door to a 1930s house in another conservation area

the canopy has a timber crown embelishment

because of the size of the crown and the chop saw i have, i will need to cut the crown face down, hence my questions