Question for Brice or any other finish chippy's here

[Brice Burrell]

DD, here in the States we use these terms for cutting crown, cutting "in position", this is the with the crown held on its spring angle upside down. Here's a pic of crown set to be cut "in position".
[attachthumb=#]

When cutting in position the crown is upside down (also referred to as upside down and backwards). The portion of the crown that sits on the wall is the part that sits on the saw's fence and the portion that goes on the ceiling is on the saw's bed. Cutting give you two benefits, first its much easier because you don't need to use a compound miter (just a miter cut) and second, the pencil mark to cut the length will be facing up, where it is easy to see and align. One of the possible downside is you need to remember the crown is also backwards, what is the left end on the saw is really the right end of the piece as it sits on the wall, just don't forget that and you'll be fine. As you said you do need a large diameter blade to make this cut, that's the other downside. 

The other term used here is cutting crown "on the flat", setting the crown flat on the saw bed (with the profile facing up). The disadvantage is you'll have to cut with a compound angle. To determine the compound angle you need you first have to know the crown's spring angle. There is a formula for the saws setting for each spring angle, however, its a lot easier to get your hands on a chart with the of setting for each spring angle. Do a search on the net and you should have no problems finding a chart. I don't cut on the flat unless I have to because it is a little more complicated setting the angles. Sometimes with large crown I have to then I have to find my chart.

 

[dirtydeeds]

thank you brice

 

[Sam Murdoch]

        Here is my two cents worth on this topic: Consistently the best and easiest bevel joint for field or shop work involves nothing other than a good pair of bevel joints, a good glue, and some heavy duty clear packing tape. Hey, I was dubious too, but I was taught by a pro at this technique and I have ever since given up on biscuits, lock miters, fasteners and all that other jazz. The most difficult part of the job is getting the long straight bevel without the use of a power feeder. (By the way I call this a miter too but I'm being careful to be accurate for the posting.) Once you have established the bevels on your pieces flip them finished face up onto a flat work surface, no saw horses here but a floor or full table of plywood sheets. With your sharp points touching make a hinge with 4 or 5 inches of tape every three feet or so along the length. Then starting at one end apply the tape so that it spans the joint pretty evenly. I do this very methodically using a laminate or veneer roller to apply the tape as flat and crease free as possible. Tight and flat tape here means that you will have virtually no clean up of the joint later. Once the tape is applied flip the assembly over (you could have two or three pieces together at this point) spread out the glue then fold up your side panels. Now you can come up with all kinds of fancy ways to keep the assembly square but I discovered that the joint is held so securely that it's enough to just move along the glue up with a square and as needed every 2 or 3 feet add some tape to hold the top edges of the pieces properly aligned. After the dry time you'll find that the tape comes off easily and that your joint will be clean and void free. Tight tape !! tight tape!!!
        Now having written all this, 14 feet is a long span and any system for such a long bevel will be a challenge, AND it really is a pretty bogus joint for this kind of application. Wood moves.  Clients don't get it, but we all know that in the long run these beams could move and crack beyond anyone's control. You won't be sealing the inside will you? I'd vote for and strongly advise my client to consider some version of a square edge joint, sides overlaying the bottom or bottom overlaying the sides, anything but flushed or mitered. I have built the  mitered version, came out fine, but I never saw the work ten or twenty years later. Good luck. Don't knock it 'till you've tried it.

Sam

 

[neoshed]

Cheers for your thoughts mate.

I'm going to discuss this with the client and explain the issues. If I get lucky I can talk him into a paint finish which would mean I could do a much more straightforward joint and not have to worry about it being perfect.

 

[Michael Kellough]

        Here is my two cents worth on this topic ? Consistently the best and easiest bevel joint for field or shop work involves nothing other than a good pair of bevel joints, a good glue, and some heavy duty clear packing tape. Hey, I was dubious too, but I was taught by a pro at this technique and I have ever since given up on biscuits, lock miters, fasteners and all that other jazz. The most difficult part of the job is getting the long straight bevel without the use of a power feeder. (By the way I call this a miter too but I'm being careful to be accurate for the posting.) Once you have established the bevels on your pieces flip them finished face up onto a flat work surface, no saw horses here but a floor or full table of plywood sheets. With your sharp points touching make a hinge with 4 or 5 inches of tape every three feet or so along the length. Then starting at one end apply the tape so that it spans the joint pretty evenly. I do this very methodically using a laminate or veneer roller to apply the tape as flat and crease free as possible. Tight and flat tape here means that you will have virtually no clean up of the joint later. Once the tape is applied flip the assembly over (you could have two or three pieces together at this point) spread out the glue then fold up your side panels. Now you can come up with all kinds of fancy ways to keep the assembly square but I discovered that the joint is held so securely that it's enough to just move along the glue up with a square and as needed every 2 or 3 feet add some tape to hold the top edges of the pieces properly aligned. After the dry time you'll find that the tape comes off easily and that your joint will be clean and void free. Tight tape ? tight tape!!!
        Now having written all this ? 14 feet is a long span and any system for such a long bevel will be a challenge, AND it really is a pretty bogus joint for this kind of application ? wood moves ? clients don't get it, but we all know that in the long run these beams could move and crack beyond anyone's control. You won't be sealing the inside will you? I'd vote for and strongly advise my client to consider some version of a square edge joint, sides overlaying the bottom or bottom overlaying the sides, anything but flushed or mitered. I have built the  mitered version, came out fine, but I never saw the work ten or twenty years later. Good luck. Don't knock it 'till you've tried it.

Sam

I almost suggested this but since I've never used it for anything over 6 feet I didn't want to claim it would work for a long joint. It has worked well for me (even on octagons) but you do need to overcut the bevel a bit as others have said. As you fold up the pieces into the beam form you are driving the glue to the interior of the joint and putting a lot of pressure on the adhesive (the tape) so you need some relief via the overcutting. If you don't have that relief and the glue has started to skin you can lever the outer joints open.

But, with a lock miter I don't think the joint is going to open up no matter how the wood moves.

 

[tomweston]

Hi Noshed. I've just done some 2.4m (8ft) joints which I believe are similar to what you are trying to achieve.. In the past I've also done three sided fixings around pipework etc. How do I do it. I rip the lengths with my table saw blade set to 45'. I then dowel them - I have the Mayfel dowler which speeds things up ( I've tried the domino and have been less than pleased - hence back to dowels) I then glue and clamp the assembly - Results - razor sharp edges, minimal filling, if at all and a strong construction.

As I've said, biggest I've done is 2.4m. I also tried the mitre lock, but couldn't get a good result - I also use this method to prodcue Stickley legs.

I will try to post some pictures.

Best of luck

 

[Warrior]

I think the reason the Domino produces less than acceptable performance here is due to the fact that you have to reference the fence with the back side of the work piece when everything else has been referenced from the top. If you have any variation in thickness the points of the miters wont line up and that also messes wiht the joint on the opposite side. One could make a jig to mount onto the domi's fence so the joints could be referenced from the top side.

 

[dirtydeeds]

eiji

jig............ its far more simple than that

if you want a 10 mm margin you reference one piece of timber with the fence and the other of timber with a piece of 10 mml ply under the fence

 

[neoshed]

Tom....what dowel thingy was it? I saw a great dowel jig made in England but with the current exchange rate it was going to be almost $200 

Actually I had a bit of luck and talked the client into a paint finish for the casings. So I get to avoid all the hassle and I'm off to order some windsor one boards.

 

[dirtydeeds]

neo

im really glad you managed to get the client to change his/her mind

the paint finish is FAR more in keeping with the style they want (to my understanding)

its going to be so much easier for you (and slightly cheaper for the client no doubt) but not too much  8)

 

[Chuck Kiser]

OK, lets keep the confusion going for just a little longer. Say I make a rectangular table top where the grain of the wood runs in the long direction. The customer wants a beveled edge all around the table top. If the term relates to the grain direction only then two sides would have a beveled edge and the other two sides would have a mitered edge, right.

Now assume the table top is round. ;D

 

[neoshed]

DD yes the paint finish will be much more forgiving of my craftsmanship  The only downside is he wants it painted to match the bronze finish of the windows while I think they should be white. Oh well....c'est la vie

 

[Michael Kellough]

OK, lets keep the confusion going for just a little longer. Say I make a rectangular table top where the grain of the wood runs in the long direction. The customer wants a beveled edge all around the table top. If the term relates to the grain direction only then two sides would have a beveled edge and the other two sides would have a mitered edge, right.

Now assume the table top is round. ;D

Obviously, it's a beviter. 

 

[nickao]

No that is a chamfer but singly still a bevel. Chuck.. In the corners it can form miters too depending on how you make it.

A chamfer is a beveled edge connecting two surfaces. If the surfaces are at right angles, the chamfer will typically be symmetrical at 45 degrees. A fillet is the opposite, rounding off an interior corner.(wikepedia)

A miter or miter joint can be made by beveling each of two parts to be joined. A miter is only a miter if TWO parts iintersect. single it is only a bevel

A beveled edge refers to an edge of a structure that is not perpendicular (but instead often at 45 degrees) to the faces of the piece. The grain direction is not quite right it more specifically refers to the face. And on can decide which way the grain the face of a piece goes. I was speaking in general as mostly used in the trade, but to the face, not grain direction is more correct.

Top in pic is bevel, bottom is chamfer. If you stand the board on edge then it is a miter looking down at it, if you have the wide side down looking across the width in this case, than it is a bevel, irregardless of the grain.

Nick

 

[Cannuck]

I think that a lock mitre joint would do the trick nicely.  I'm not a very experienced finish carpenter, but I've been doing alot of lock mitres lately, and they really assist in aligning the boards when gluing.  Admittedly, I've only run through boards up to 6 ft. in length, but with someone helping you, and come decent featherboards, you should be able to accomplish it with a router table.

On a long board, I would try the L-shaped caul idea suggested - if only to protect the thin edge of the mitre when clamping.

Now to continue fueling the fire of bevel vs. mitre - I am assuming that because they call it a lock-mitre bit...ah forget it  ???

 

[tomweston]

Hi Patrick.

The doweller is the MAFELL DD40 MIDI-MAX 240V 8MM DUO-DOWELLER - its a great piece of kit - same build quality as Festool, trouble is it costs about $700...no change there then. I've seen a company called Silvernic produce a rip off version for about  $90 - how good or accurate I can't vouch for. I've also seen a dowelling tool (Jennie Jig I think) which looks to do the job - might buy one in the future.

The Domino is great piece of Kit, but sometimes the doweller or the biscuit jointer is called for - I prodcue a good quntity of Stickley legs and the doweller pays for itself, as does the Domino.

Anyway glad you turned the client around.

I will post some pictures once I find some time and work out how to do it.

 

[stevelf]

large locking miter bit on router table + West Marine epoxy + multiple clamps = long-term perfection !!

 

[tvogel400]

A 14' (I'm using Imperial) long lock miter (the mfg's name for the profile- more grist for the nomenclature mill) on a router table?

Please send video of the two passes with the work piece on edge and then maybe of the glue-up, I'll be the swearing would be incredible.

If you don't have a shaper and a powerfeed you are going to have a very hard time getting accurate joints. Remember with the lock miter you are registering

off the back not the face so any discrepancy in thickness or pressure will give poor results.

This is where the ts55 is so friggen great- your registering off the face, and that my friends is the path to tight joints. You can even run a spline with the 55

you just have to register off the back.

Lock miters are fun to glue up because all you need is a hand screw and pressure in one plane, but if they are milled poorly-@#@$%%#!.

One could always put fewer lights in the ceiling though.

T-bone