Question for the cabinet installers/kitchen fitters out there.

[Jonhilgen]

So last week I learned the hard way to NEVER move a whirlpool undercounter icemaker.  I pulled it out a half an inch tp get a quick look at how the appliance panel was to be installed and that was all it took for the gravity drain to pull out of the floor. And of course, for the first time in months I had to leave the jobsite to let my dogs out mid-day.  I came back to the site to see a large puddle and cupped floors (floors were stained and had a final coat of finish.).

535.00 dollars later for Servicemaster to come by and dry the floors, they're still cupped and I might be looking at filing a claim on my liability if they need to be refinished..  My liabilty only covers interior carpentery, so I'm wondering if I'm even covered for this (call to be made to insurance co. later.)

So my question to other fitters, when installing appliances, do you set and level the appliance as a courtesy (and to make panel installation easier?  Or do you set the panels and just walk away with the "its not my job" attitude.

Jon

P.S.  my new rule about ice makers is that if they're hooked up and have ice in them, install the panel your damn self or call me when its completely drained of water and ice.

 

[Sparktrician]

I'm with you on that policy. 

 

[danrush]

Jon
As for the insurance issue, I believe you should be covered...not much different than driving a screw into a hidden pipe. (yea, been there, done that).

Regarding appliances, I won't touch them until they are CORRECTLY installed, leveled, etc, then I can install and adjust the panels.  I do have to occasionally adjust a Sub-Zero or dw for level or plumb,
but it's only just a very minor deal.

There's a reason that the appliance guys get $3-4000. to install a custom appliance job: Liability; and it's a lot of work.

Hope your adventure works out.  Dan

 

[Jonhilgen]

Dan,
I'm with you on the fine tuning of subzeros or thermadore built ins.  There's no getting around it.

My problem seems to be arriving at the mid-tier builder (800-900k homes), where the margins are so slim (so they say) that they don't hire appliance installers.  Plumbers do water hook ups on all appliances that require it, then the appliances are shoved in the openning. 

I just installed panels on a whirlpool refrigerator today,  which then required the appliance to be plumbed up so the doors wouldnt bind.  I just couldn't bring myself to to do it.  A quick adjustment with my Cxs and I would have been done in no time. 

I have a great friend that installs appliances and does quite well for himself, so why should I keep giving away my labor tp help a builder out?

Jon

 

[peter halle]

Jon,

Sorry to hear about your adventure.  My guess is that you have the insurance coverage.  I filed a claim last year when I moved an appliance and scratched the floor.  The insurance company was so appreciative of me taking detailed pics of the damage so that they didn't have to hire an adjuster that they didn't even charge me the deductible.

I won't touch an appliance again without a waiver.

Peter

 

[danrush]

Jon,
Stop doing work for nothing, my friend. If your working for GC's you've been with for awhile, it may take a few jobs to ween them off of the present deal.... Maybe you could get your friend to give you a quote on upcoming bids for appliance install and you can include that as a line item. " I touch the appliance, it costs this much"

My builders are crying poor too, but does that mean we should become all around handymen, taking on other trades, just to "help out" ?. I say no. I'm a professional, and I am very good at what I do, but that's because I stick to what I do, and just that. To ask us to take on other trades, it seems to me, just dilutes the expertice we were hired for originally.

Best, Dan

 

[danrush]

I should clarify one part of my response above:  it might read that I have a lesser view of professional handymen. That's certainly not the case.  I have the utmost respect for anyone who can work many trades proficiently, professionally, and profitably. I can't. 

I just wanted to be clear that I won't be put in the position of a handyman, without the expertise required (or pay) just to help out a builder.

Dan

 

[Jonhilgen]

Dan, no need to clarify your statement.  I'm a cabinet installer first and foremost, but I have done handywork for neighbors and have been paid quite well for it.

"Ween" is definelty the correct term.  I take pride in providing a high level of service to all of the builders I come in contact with.  I'm a subcontrator for a kitchen designer, but giving the builder more than they are used to has helped build the designers' business and subsequently, my business quite a bit in the three years I've been self employed. 

That being said, lines get blurry and I need to slowly and firmly establish my scope of work with the builders and my kitchen designer, but still provide a higher level of service than they are used to.

Peter, did your premium go up after filing your claim?  I'm ok with eating 500.00, its a lesson I won't soon forget.  But of this can of worms opens up further, do I just keep paying cash, or let my insurance take care of it.  Long term, would it be less expensive tp just pay out of pocket? Probably questions for my agent(?)

Thanks for the feedback you two.  Your words carry weight in my book.

Jon

P.S. i might be flooding the member projects with kitchen installs in the next few days since the wife is out of town and its something to keep me busy!  It's not the same as building custom furniture, but damn if it isn't rewarding to see the jobs done.

 

[danrush]

Jon,

For what it's worth, I'd consider passing this on to the insurance co.  If this is a first claim, you may not be hit too hard on future insurance costs. 

The problem with paying cash to the (gc, owners) is that there may not be an end in site.  Costs just keep coming in....  On the other hand, the insurance company has a whole department who's only dedication is to keep costs to a minimum.

If you balk at paying a bill for the gc, you're the bad guy. If the insurance co. balks, your insulated from some of the nastiness;  after all, you did the right thing, you have insurance, you turned it in, etc.

Just a thought, Dan

 

[awil66]

Sorry to hear about the floor.
I work for a general contractor in the New York City area, and generally the kitchen installer is responsible for the appliances; from checking delivery, installing and levelling. We certainly coordinate the plumbers and electricians for his install, it may be different in your area. You should check and clarify with the kitchen company you sub off to see what the scope of work should be.
I would make the builder aware of the issue, and offer your insurance. He may or may not take you up on it, at least you offered.
I feel for you. Classic case of no good deed goes unpunished.

 

[mastercabman]

You moved it a 1/2" and it got disconnected? ???
Maybe you should blame it on whoever hook it up! [laughing]

 

[Jonhilgen]

You moved it a 1/2" and it got disconnected? ???
Maybe you should blame it on whoever hook it up! [laughing]

Would love to.  But the way the whirlpool gravity drain works is ridiculous.  It's essentially a small tube that comes out of the back of the unit that barely lips into a 1" pipe that comes out of the  floor about 7".  Pull the unit out a bit and plop, you're toast.

Another classic case of he-who-touched-it-last is responsible I guess.

Dan, I'm definitely calling my insurance company to talk about this since it is my first incident.

Jon

 

[mastercabman]

You moved it a 1/2" and it got disconnected? ???
Maybe you should blame it on whoever hook it up! [laughing]

Would love to.  But the way the whirlpool gravity drain works is ridiculous.  It's essentially a small tube that comes out of the back of the unit that barely lips into a 1" pipe that comes out of the  floor about 7".  Pull the unit out a bit and plop, you're toast.

Another classic case of he-who-touched-it-last is responsible I guess.

Dan, I'm definitely calling my insurance company to talk about this since it is my first incident.

Jon

WOW!  So what happens when that 1" pipe gets clog up?

 

[andvari]

WOW!  So what happens when that 1" pipe gets clog up?

The homeowner learns about one of the drawbacks of wood floors in the kitchen.

 

[Jonhilgen]

WOW!  So what happens when that 1" pipe gets clog up?

The homeowner learns about one of the drawbacks of wood floors in the kitchen.

[big grin]

 

[mastercabman]

WOW!  So what happens when that 1" pipe gets clog up?

The homeowner learns about one of the drawbacks of wood floors in the kitchen.

[big grin]

Jon I guess we do thing a little different here.I have installed icemaker with pump but never with a gravity drain.
Where do you hook up this 1" line to?    And does your local codes requires a pan under the machine?
To me,it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.I would think the drain tube would need to be attached somehow to the 1" pipe?

 

[Jonhilgen]

WOW!  So what happens when that 1" pipe gets clog up?

The homeowner learns about one of the drawbacks of wood floors in the kitchen.

[big grin]

Jon I guess we do thing a little different here.I have installed icemaker with pump but never with a gravity drain.
Where do you hook up this 1" line to?    And does your local codes requires a pan under the machine?
To me,it doesn't make a whole lot of sense.I would think the drain tube would need to be attached somehow to the 1" pipe?

There are two rypes, one with pumps,ones without.  Guess which one is cheaper and there fore gets purchased More often?  

That's what burns me, there is no mechanical connection.  You remove a  panel in the front reach back and push the hose from the appliance into the drain in the floor.

I've attached the web page with the pdf download of the install instructions.  

http://www.whirlpool.com/kitchen-1/refrigeration-2/refrigerators-3/-[GI15NDXXB]-1001330/GI15NDXXB/

Edit, copy and paste entire link or it won't work.
Jon

 

[mastercabman]

jon,that's pretty screw up the way it shows how the drain is connected.IT'S NOT!!  Looks to me that you need to place the icemaker so that the drain tube is right above the pvc drain.NOT INSIDE THE PVC! Needs a 1" gap between the tube and pipe.
What are those appliances engineer are thinking? ???

Did the builder/contractor gave you a chance to do the repaire yourself? Or are you not comfortable with it?

 

[Jonhilgen]

jon,that's pretty screw up the way it shows how the drain is connected.IT'S NOT!!  Looks to me that you need to place the icemaker so that the drain tube is right above the pvc drain.NOT INSIDE THE PVC! Needs a 1" gap between the tube and pipe.
What are those appliances engineer are thinking? ???

Did the builder/contractor gave you a chance to do the repaire yourself? Or are you not comfortable with it?

Yeah, someone at whirlpool is clearly an idiot.  From the looks of the spec sheet it looks like the plumber at least gave me a fighting chance by having the drain on the ice maker lip into the floor drain...a half inch fighting chance.

I wouldn't know how to have repaired the floor myself.  It was netters to have a water damage repair co. come in and do it with specialized equipment.  I would have preferred  waiting a bit since its starting to warm up down here and the a/c will be running in his house shortly.  Who knows, it might make it worse!

Jon

 

[ccmviking]

jon,that's pretty screw up the way it shows how the drain is connected.IT'S NOT!!  Looks to me that you need to place the icemaker so that the drain tube is right above the pvc drain.NOT INSIDE THE PVC! Needs a 1" gap between the tube and pipe.
What are those appliances engineer are thinking? ???

Did the builder/contractor gave you a chance to do the repaire yourself? Or are you not comfortable with it?

Yeah, someone at whirlpool is clearly an idiot.  From the looks of the spec sheet it looks like the plumber at least gave me a fighting chance by having the drain on the ice maker lip into the floor drain...a half inch fighting chance.

I wouldn't know how to have repaired the floor myself.  It was netters to have a water damage repair co. come in and do it with specialized equipment.  I would have preferred  waiting a bit since its starting to warm up down here and the a/c will be running in his house shortly.  Who knows, it might make it worse!

Jon

    Ice Makers can be a sore spot for a lot of folks.  We install them but always use ones with internal pumps because actual floor drains can be a pain to keep clean and clear.  Over time you'll get build up and the water flow from the ice maker isn't always enough to keep the drain clear so there's some maintenance involved. 

    I don't know why you are calling people at Whirlpool idiots.  They gave pretty clear instructions on how to install it properly that weren't followed.  The "air gap" could be a code issue to keep anything from backing up into the ice maker from the drain and/or to allow the drain to work better by having venting.  The fact that you didn't know how anything about an ice maker and the way the plumber installed the drain seem like the issue to me.  You moved it causing the tube to come out of the drain (these tubes are generally very flexible almost like silicone tubing).  Since there wasn't the "air gap" if you were to push the ice maker back the tube would hit against the drain and bend and not center back over the drain (I personally would say you are not responsible because the appliance was installed outside of manufacturer specifications).  Was there a large cutout in the cabinet next to the ice maker so you could get a visual on drain tube alignment?  How were you supposed to know?  A real floor drain is generally a large cast object with a build in p-trap and you'd have a 3-4" opening.  The tile can and should be sloped to the drain in case there is some mis-alignment in the drain tube (think shower drain).  This just wasn't a well thought out execution in my opinion.  Again... I install these, I have one in my own home and it's one of my most cherished appliances.  Yes, they have to be installed correctly to perform correctly. 

    In my experience with water on most wood floors is that it may take a few weeks but the cupping should all but go away once thoroughly dried. 

Chris...