Question: How many of us use non-Festool blades?

[socaljohn]

I was following the "other" thread in total disbelief. It sounded like pure nonsense and it's continuing here!

Firstly, why would Festool supply 1/4" and 1/2" collets with their routers if you were only supposed to use Festool bits. Festool only make a few 8mm shank bits!

Second, why would they offer bit adapters for their drills if were only supposed to use centrotec bits?

Finally, if using non-Festool blades in a jigsaw was really an important issue, then the tool should be engineered in such a way to only accept Festool blades.

Seems like a total cop-out to me.

Lots of frustration going on and it's very understandable if you read through both threads objectively.
Let's take a deep breath and clean this up.

The impression left by Festool is that using 3rd party consumables voids your festool warranty.
1. I doubt that this is true.
2. This leaves a lot of Festool customers feeling insecure about their purchase/warranty.
3. I, and many others doubt that the blade was the sole cause of the failure.

Now I appreciate Festools limitations in that they owe the OP a degree of privacy and cannot disclose all.
I also appreciate the opinion of the tech that tore down the tool. He tears these down on a regular basis and knows how they usually look. I doubt that he made his call without showing the tool to his coworkers and supervisor. They know how a tool should look and weather the broken part is sturdy or not. I'm guessing that he opened it up and said "Crap! what the heck did this guy do to this thing?"

I appreciate the frustration of the OP in that these are premium tools and in the course of construction nails/screws get hit and it rarely destroys the tool.

What we do know is that a wood blade hit a metal screw and neither yielded so the tool did.
I can see that happening!

If you are not expecting to hit a metal screw and you are pressing through the cut hard and fast you will not yield the screw with the wood blade. Depending on the angle and force applied you may not be able to yield "ANY" blade confined and supported by the wood. (I can imagine that it gave him quite a jolt when it jammed!)

This is a tough deal all around. Festool should not repair tools for free that are misused. Nobody wants to loose a Festool on a "easy" job or cut.

Ultimately Festool is right in their call here but totally wrong in the impression they have left regarding the use of consumables and the voiding of the warranty. PLEASE FESTOOL CLEAR THIS UP.

Tough to say but the OP learning a tough lesson here. "Look all around before cutting. When in doubt use a metal blade and go slow. If you are in serious doubt use a throw away tool on the cut." Ultimately it's your responsibility for hitting anything in the course of performing your job.

If it doesn't violate the Festool policy, it would be nice to help the OP out by sending him back his tool in organized bags with a schematic if he wants to pay for the broken part.

"Can't we all just get along?"...The late Rodney King

 

[sae]

Lots of frustration going on and it's very understandable if you read through both threads objectively.
Let's take a deep breath and clean this up.

The impression left by Festool is that using 3rd party consumables voids your festool warranty.
1. I doubt that this is true.
2. This leaves a lot of Festool customers feeling insecure about their purchase/warranty.
3. I, and many others doubt that the blade was the sole cause of the failure.

Now I appreciate Festools limitations in that they owe the OP a degree of privacy and cannot disclose all.
I also appreciate the opinion of the tech that tore down the tool. He tears these down on a regular basis and knows how they usually look. I doubt that he made his call without showing the tool to his coworkers and supervisor. They know how a tool should look and weather the broken part is sturdy or not. I'm guessing that he opened it up and said "Crap! what the heck did this guy do to this thing?"

I appreciate the frustration of the OP in that these are premium tools and in the course of construction nails/screws get hit and it rarely destroys the tool.

What we do know is that a wood blade hit a metal screw and neither yielded so the tool did.
I can see that happening!

If you are not expecting to hit a metal screw and you are pressing through the cut hard and fast you will not yield the screw with the wood blade. Depending on the angle and force applied you may not be able to yield "ANY" blade confined and supported by the wood. (I can imagine that it gave him quite a jolt when it jammed!)

This is a tough deal all around. Festool should not repair tools for free that are misused. Nobody wants to loose a Festool on a "easy" job or cut.

Ultimately Festool is right in their call here but totally wrong in the impression they have left regarding the use of consumables and the voiding of the warranty. PLEASE FESTOOL CLEAR THIS UP.

Tough to say but the OP learning a tough lesson here. "Look all around before cutting. When in doubt use a metal blade and go slow. If you are in serious doubt use a throw away tool on the cut." Ultimately it's your responsibility for hitting anything in the course of performing your job.

The reason it blew up so quickly is the scenario of hitting an embedded nail has happened to all of us, and the fact that the point of failure is the gearbox (that costs more to replace than the saw itself) and not a shear pin, as has been stated exists to protect the gearbox in this exact situation.

So the prevailing question is, what actually happened? Why did the safeguard fail to protect the gearbox, and if you look at it in that light, was it a failure of the user or the tool as well?

I don't particularly deem it as misuse (especially as the tool is supposed to have safeguards against this type of damage) as it implies intent to cause damage, misuse would be using it as a jab saw, felling trees, or similar.

 

[SittingElf]

Reading through this and the original thread, it seems that suddenly there are a bunch of people in total fear that Festool is looking for reasons NOT to honor a warranty on their tools.  This is like reading conspiracy sites about FEMA camps, false flags, black helicopters and other speculative crap.  How fast the crowd turns against the company for a SINGLE incident for which we don't know all the exact details.

Here's the deal. One only has to look back through hundreds of posts here on FOG to find a plethora of threads where Festool repaired, warranted, replaced, or have otherwise taken care of their customers OUTSIDE of existing warranties or for "mistakes" by the end user.  They are clearly VERY Customer Service Oriented, and I find this sudden mob action against the company in whole, for a SINGLE incident for which I suspect there are other factors involved that Festool is aware, to be specious.

This is probably the first time I have seen a firm stand by Festool against a "gratis" repair for what the OP "claims" is the cause of the tool's failure. It is also the first time I have seen so many FOG members suddenly become a crowd of Festool Naysayers in a mob-like action, WITHOUT having the complete story, and only based on pure speculation and no hard facts. Bizarre!! [huh]

I personally think this whole incident and response has gone far beyond the pale, and doesn't reflect the normal ebb and tide of FOG discussions. Just my  [2cents] (that's "2 pence" for you Brits! [big grin])

Cheers,
Frank

 

[wow]

If Festool did indeed expect to charge the OP more for the repair than the value of the saw, I find that disturbing. I believe the first question that needed to be answered was 'Did the OP use the saw in a manner that is consistent with its intended use'. IF the answer if yes - as I would believe from the stated information - then Festool should cover the repair. If there is something we don't know and the answer is 'no' there are still other options available:

1. Since I've never heard of this happening before, Festool could make a 'good will' exception and repair the tool for free.

2. Festool could replace the tool with a 30-day return tool or refurb.

3. Festool could choose to charge a 'flat rate' repair of - say - 50% of the tools value.

It baffles me that Festool has allowed this to go on and on when there are several viable solutions. I respect their right to decide their interpretation of the warranty, but this is VERY CONCERNING.

This needs to get handled. I would hope that Festool will at least post back that the customer was offered a resolution which they accepted, even if it doesn't include specifics, so we can put the concerns to rest?

 

[sae]

This is probably the first time I have seen a firm stand by Festool against a "gratis" repair for what the OP "claims" is the cause of the tool's failure. It is also the first time I have seen so many FOG members suddenly become a crowd of Festool Naysayers in a mob-like action, WITHOUT having the complete story, and only based on pure speculation and no hard facts. Bizarre!! [huh]

Perhaps why it's even more disturbing, is this the future of warranty at Festool?

The facts were presented, with neither the OP nor Brent refuting the claims made, or that there was a lack of information. So we have to go by the assumption that there was nothing more to add then, no?

 

[SittingElf]

This is probably the first time I have seen a firm stand by Festool against a "gratis" repair for what the OP "claims" is the cause of the tool's failure. It is also the first time I have seen so many FOG members suddenly become a crowd of Festool Naysayers in a mob-like action, WITHOUT having the complete story, and only based on pure speculation and no hard facts. Bizarre!! [huh]

Perhaps why it's even more disturbing, is this the future of warranty at Festool?

The facts were presented, with neither the OP nor Brent refuting the claims made, or that there was a lack of information. So we have to go by the assumption that there was nothing more to add then, no?

In the original thread, the OP's post was modified by the forum's administrator to remove names, which is appropriate in the interest of confidentiality and Forum Rules. 

In the same light, it is entirely probable that discussions between the OP and Festool behind the curtain are not appropriate for Festool to disclose to the general public on the forum in a narrative of every detail . There are serious issues regarding defamation and confidential information involved here. It goes both ways...just as the name of the Service rep was removed from the original post. Whether or not Brent or the OP didn't "dispute" the facts as presented on FOG may be immaterial. There were clearly other things going on behind the scenes, and I don't think it is incumbent on Festool to provide a total narrative of the issue and decisions to us, just because we're FOG members.

I don't "fear" that there is some evil intent on the part of Festool to change their warranty policies. Clearly, Festool Customer Service is amongst the best in the business, and this incident doesn't scare me into believing that anything has necessarily changed.

Frank

 

[sae]

I don't "fear" that there is some evil intent on the part of Festool to change their warranty policies. Clearly, Festool Customer Service is amongst the best in the business, and this incident doesn't scare me into believing that anything has necessarily changed.

Frank

Calling it evil is red herring, it is what it is, which is a departure from what we've come to expect on the service side.

Perhaps the equation for profitability has changed?

 

[socaljohn]

[/quote] The reason it blew up so quickly is the scenario of hitting an embedded nail has happened to all of us, and the fact that the point of failure is the gearbox (that costs more to replace than the saw itself) and not a shear pin, as has been stated exists to protect the gearbox in this exact situation.

So the prevailing question is, what actually happened? Why did the safeguard fail to protect the gearbox, and if you look at it in that light, was it a failure of the user or the tool as well?
[/quote]

Good points sae. I guess I missed that in earlier posts. My fault.
I was not aware that there was a shear pin to act as a safeguard against catastrophic failure.

I believe that different groups within the entire Festool community are looking at this and getting upset for different reasons. In addition to those not convinced that the fail safe design is reliable, a large group is upset with the communication from Festool that puts the blame on 3rd party consumables and insinuates that their use voids the warranty. This is of course absurd and would void almost every router warranty! 

We all love our tools. We love the way Festool goes to great lengths to provide great service and great communication. This will ultimately make better communication and customer experience.

And I'm sure that Brent is grateful for this "Baptism by Fire".  [eek]  "Hang in there Brent, it'll get better!"

 

[SittingElf]

The simplest solution to the whole incident, that if it had been used would NOT have been an incident or discussions of warranties.

[attachimg=1]

I don't cut ANYTHING with TS, TrackSaw, JigSaw, BandSaw, MiterSaw, or Hand Saw until I've run over the material with my metal detector. Very cheap insurance.

A $120 Forrest WWII blade 10 years ago taught me that lesson.  Cheaper to check! [wink]  Amazing how many hidden nails, staples, and screws I've found over the years...even in "fresh" lumber from the BORG.

Cheers,

Frank

 

[Tyler Ernsberger]

This whole thing had turned into a Festool witch hunt.  Festool has been really good to me in the past and if they did not cover the warranty thats between them and there customer.  If your read the original post it was user error.  Theres no reason to keep this thread going on.  I didnt comment on the first thread bc everytime I would read it I would get mad.  Its funny how everyone will turn there back on a company that has taken care of them for years, has awesome tools and great customer service.  We dont know the whole story so how can we attack without knowing it.  This is a Festool and there Customer issue!!!!  I was happy when Brent closed the other thread,  personally im tired of reading about it.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Yeah, who cares?  This is ridiculous. 

 

[rljatl]

More scrutiny comes with every price increase.  We should know exactly what we are getting or not getting before spending our hard earned money. 

Are we getting better tools or just a better warranty?  Or maybe the warranty is not that great after all if using not-Festool blades and bits voids the warranty.

 

[mrboult]

Well after the reading the other thread . . . . . the official party line is  "yes, I only use festool blades"

Previously however, my TS55 was the only tool that always had Festool blades in it, as I find them excellent, with plenty of re-sharpening life.

And I also want to note that if warranties are being voided purely by the use of non-festool jigsaw blades, then I am disappointed. Festool's 3 year service all inclusive setup is a big part in why I buy some of their tools.

As an edit I felt I should add that I'm continuing with my faith in Festool and my dealer as they have both been excellent in the past. 
I am just interested, as Brent seemed to post that as the main reason for the warranty denial was the use of a non-festool blade. Perhaps there was more to it?

 

[Mike B]

This whole thing had turned into a Festool witch hunt. 

It's a shame that some see any criticism on Festool USA as a major threat. I suppose Festool should be happy with their PR that so many are willing to blindly disregard a valid question as conspiracy or which hunt (both plainly ridiculous). No one is suggesting Festool is evil, that is just childish misdirection  :.

Regardless, the issue remains until clarified by Festool USA: It was plainly stated by Brent that the warranty clause he quoted constituted a significant factor in the reasoning for the refusal of warranty.

I only asked the question that - for lack of any official enlightenment - how many of us use other brands of blades, and by extension would a perceived warranty risk change that choice?

 

[Michael1960]

In any dispute there are at least two sides to the story.  With out this knowledge its speculation...

 

[thedude306]

Well after the reading the other thread . . . . . the official party line is  "yes, I only use festool blades"

That should read....  "No, I don't use ANY third party accessories."

It's not a witch hunt, I just wanted to know.  It won't deter me from purchasing more festool, that wasn't the point of my question.  I just want to know what their official stance on it is.  Well, actually if it voids warranty.  I know what their stance on it is.

 

[SittingElf]

Brent recently responded to a thread about Festool warranty if using a CMT Fiber Cement Blade on a TS55 or TS75.

The response was clear:

"As stated we do not offer the fiber cement blade in the North America.  Our warranty has a list of actions that could void the warranty.  Bullet number 9 should be referenced for this thread because of the mention of non Festool blade. " 09. Damage resulting from the use of any non-FESTOOL accessories or attachments"

The warranty is only void if DAMAGE IS CAUSED BY NON-FESTOOL ACCESSORIES or ATTACHMENTS...  It doesn't say that warranty is void for USING those attachments... The key words are "Resulting from the use of...".

Geez guys!  Can it be any clearer?? 

 

[thedude306]

Brent recently responded to a thread about Festool warranty if using a CMT Fiber Cement Blade on a TS55 or TS75.

The response was clear:

"As stated we do not offer the fiber cement blade in the North America.  Our warranty has a list of actions that could void the warranty.  Bullet number 9 should be referenced for this thread because of the mention of non Festool blade. " 09. Damage resulting from the use of any non-FESTOOL accessories or attachments"

The warranty is only void if DAMAGE IS CAUSED BY NON-FESTOOL ACCESSORIES or ATTACHMENTS...  It doesn't say that warranty is void for USING those attachments... The key words are "Resulting from the use of...".

Geez guys!  Can it be any clearer??

Unlike some, I don't read every thread.  That wasn't stated in the other thread.  That makes it crystal clear.  ;-)

 

[semenza]

  Brent locked the other thread for a reason. We don't know all the details of what transpired. We aren't going to know all the details of what transpired either.  I don't believe that there is any view point that has not already been expressed. We may or  may not get more on the warranty from Festool, but I doubt it.  I'm not worrying about it warranty coverage wise. The overall track record of Festool in regards to warranty claims should alleviate any fears in that department.

    Time to move on.

Seth

 

[rljatl]

Brent recently responded to a thread about Festool warranty if using a CMT Fiber Cement Blade on a TS55 or TS75.

The response was clear:

"As stated we do not offer the fiber cement blade in the North America.  Our warranty has a list of actions that could void the warranty.  Bullet number 9 should be referenced for this thread because of the mention of non Festool blade. " 09. Damage resulting from the use of any non-FESTOOL accessories or attachments"

The warranty is only void if DAMAGE IS CAUSED BY NON-FESTOOL ACCESSORIES or ATTACHMENTS...  It doesn't say that warranty is void for USING those attachments... The key words are "Resulting from the use of...".

Geez guys!  Can it be any clearer??

Unlike some, I don't read every thread.  That wasn't stated in the other thread.  That makes it crystal clear.  ;-)

So, exactly how did using a non-Festool jigsaw blade cause the damage?

If this is really the case, I would never buy a Festool jigsaw.  Does Festool expect me to throw away all my old non-Festool jigsaw blades?  What if I am on site somewhere and I need a new blade or a specialty blade and there are no Festool dealers close by?  Guess I can't go to the home center and buy a Bosch blade because it might hit a screw and void the warrantly on my $350 jigsaw.

Guess this applies to my TS75, Vecturo, and OF1400, too?  Should I throw away all my non-Festool router bits?

All of these questions are legitimate in light of what we have been told.  These tools are expensive and they go up in price every year.  We should know exactly what the rules are before plunking down our money.