Red Oak Finishing Questions

[ElCabong]

Hello FOG members,

I have several questions for you experts out there. I am planning on replacing all the cabinet doors and drawer fronts on my sisters oak kitchen and was making a sample. I purchased the Red Oak from HD to make a sample drawer front. Nothing special, just a slab. After sanding to 220G, I stained it using Minwax Polyshades. About an hour later during drying, small bubbles started to appear and began to multiply. I sanded the piece thinking I did something wrong. Applying the finish again resulted in the same problem. Frustrated I thought the Polyshades was the issue or the Red Oak was wet. I returned the Polyshades and purchased a Varathane stain (and use polyurethane as the final top coat). I actually planed down the drawer to start from scratch. Sanded again to 220G and applied the Varathane stain. Much to my dismay, the bubbles returned although not as bad the Polyshades. After researching on Google, it was mentioned that Red Oak has an inherent problem with finish because of the wood make up or biology. Sorry for the long story. So here's my questions:

1) Is there any pre-finish applications I can use to combat these bubbles? Shellac first, then stain?
2) Rather than stain, a dye then a top coat
3) If I used white oak, does that wood have the same characteristics as Red Oak (meaning, will it bubble?)
4) For cabinet doors, I would use Red Oak veneer plywood for the panels. Will this also be an issue with bubbles?

I would love to use some other type of material for the cabinet doors and drawer fronts however the cabinets are oak and my sister doesn't want to change that.

Any other advice would be appreciated. Thank you for you input.  

 

[tjbnwi]

Sand oak to 120, you're sanding way to fine.

I've yet to have an issue staining or finishing oak.

Tom

 

[Ajax]

Red oak has very large open pores.  I don't think sanding it to 220 will help.  

My first projects were in red oak.  I don't like the large open pores, so I've switched to white oak.  It's more expensive, but it's easier to sand and finish.  I do a lot of Craftsman style furniture, so oak is the wood I use most often.

Addendum:  I recall having problems with finishing like you are having.  Much of it had to do with the large pores (bubble, voids, etc.).

 

[semenza]

I have used Minwax Polyshades  (oil base) on red oak without a problem.

  What are the temp and humidity conditions where the finishing is being done?

  What are you using to apply it?

               I use foam brushes for this most of the time. I only like the ones made by JEN Manufacturing. The handle is better and the foam is denser and more pliable. Also brushing rapidly will cause a bigger trail of bubbles.

               If the finish is drying too fast you can get bubbles that don't pop in time.  If that is the case add mineral spirits to the Polyshades (oil base) to make it dry more slowly.   Try 20% first and test on scrap. Work it out from that point.

       It is interesting that the bubbles showed up an hour into the drying.  ???

Seth

 

[tiralie]

 I use foam brushes for this most of the time. I only like the ones made by JEN Manufacturing. The handle is better and the foam is denser and more pliable.

Interesting. I have never been able to brush with those (foam brush) things. Probably rushing it...
I would have guessed that using one of these (foam brushes) is causing his problem, but I believe you (Seth) are getting good results.

It is interesting that the bubbles showed up an hour into the drying.  ???

Defiantly as sign of trapped air. Try wiping down with mineral spirits before staining/finishing. If you are using a foam brush I would also use a natural bristle brush as directed and "tip off" the surface by holding the brush at a 45 degree angle and lightly run the bristles over the length of the wood.

Tim

 

[semenza]

 I use foam brushes for this most of the time. I only like the ones made by JEN Manufacturing. The handle is better and the foam is denser and more pliable.

Interesting. I have never been able to brush with those (foam brush) things. Probably rushing it...
I would have guessed that using one of these (foam brushes) is causing his problem, but I believe you (Seth) are getting good results.

Tim

    Just to emphasize .....  I only like , and get good results with that one brand of foam brushes.

Seth

 

[rljatl]

Don't shake the can.  Stir instead.  Shaking the can introduces air and can cause bubbles.

 

[rsh]

The - Shaking the can creates bubbles is a proven myth - like Murphy's oil soap is good for wood and formsbys tung oil finish is tung oil. (Bob Flexner)

Shake / stir / roll it down the stairs. Red oak is very open pored - Sand to 180 max,

Foam brushes are amazing if you  tip off like Tim suggests. Bubbles are from open pores / too much sanding / and laying down the finish too fast. Go for topcoat when stain is totally dry and try to make your own wiping poly. Might do the trick. You can still lay it down with a foamer, it'll just dry faster.

Remember its all trial and error until you find what works. Then its superstition.

 

[davee]

As an aside, I find HD to be very expensive for purchasing hardwoods.  You might check with a local lumberyard to compare price.  Quantity makes a difference, but I can get RO for under $3/bf.

 

[mastercabman]

First thing first
You are sanding too high of a grit
120/150 is good
The stain that you are using is a stain/ poly in 1 application
I wouldn't use that
Oak is an open pore wood so it will release gas/air bubble when putting a top coat
What I would do is use a stain(just a stain)
Then use a sanding sealer
That will seal the wood and color
You may see bubbles but that can be remove by sanding with 220
Then you can use a top coat .you should not see any bubbles
Good luck with your project

 

[ElCabong]

Thank you all for your input. Much appreciated.

For Seth, I used a natural bristle brush. I did it in the morning so my garage temperature was around 70 degrees and the humidity was dry (Southern California). I left it outside to air dry and the temps were in the high 70's. On the second try with the Varathane stain, I used a foam brush. Liberally doused and then wiped up the stain that didn't soak in. Same temperature and also left it outside. That said, perhaps it was drying too fast. Perhaps, next time I'll try to dilute it some mineral spirits.

Thank you for the tip about sanding. Although I would like to understand why 220 grit is too much - is it because it clogs up the pores?

Finally, the hardwood for my sample I purchased from HD was only 2 foot and you are 100% correct in that HD and Lowes pricing is outrageous for hardwood compared to my local lumber yard however in this case HD was only 1 mile from my home.

Now I am intrigued. I think I'll make several samples and sand  120 / 180, pre-wash with mineral spirits and diluted to see the results.

Thanks all for the advice.

- Floyd

 

[tjbnwi]

To fine a grit polishes the wood. On pine I'll go to a higher grit because it is softer.

Tom

 

[mastercabman]

I left it outside to air dry and the temps were in the high 70's.

That could be the problem
Leaving it outside in the sun?
High 70s may not sound really hot but in the sunlight it can get pretty hot and those bubbles are going to show up

 

[rljatl]

The - Shaking the can creates bubbles is a proven myth -

Oh, it's not a myth.  We are not talking paint here.  Easy to prove.  Try it both ways.  I have.  In fact, some cans actually state in the directions that you should stir and not shake.

Minwax® PolyShades®
Product Preparation and Color Testing:

   Stir Minwax® PolyShades® thoroughly before and occasionally during use. Do not thin.

 

[ElCabong]

I left it outside to air dry and the temps were in the high 70's.

That could be the problem
Leaving it outside in the sun?
High 70s may not sound really hot but in the sunlight it can get pretty hot and those bubbles are going to show up

Although it was initially in the shade, it did end up in the sun when I moved it back into the garage but I suppose it may have been too late as the internal temperature of the wood most likely kept the stain percolating. I believe that was where I failed and perhaps was the cause. Thank you!

 

[semenza]

Yeah,  70+ and sun along with low humidity ......................  I would try to slow down the drying.

Also unlike some types of stain the Polyshades  probably won't respond real well to  flooding and wiping off the excess.

Seth

 

[jacko9]

Another option when working with red oak is to fill the pores before finishing.  I've used Behlen Pore-O-Pac paste wood grain filler before with straight grained oak to get a nice uniform finish.

Jack

 

[leakyroof]

 I use foam brushes for this most of the time. I only like the ones made by JEN Manufacturing. The handle is better and the foam is denser and more pliable.

Interesting. I have never been able to brush with those (foam brush) things. Probably rushing it...
I would have guessed that using one of these (foam brushes) is causing his problem, but I believe you (Seth) are getting good results.

Tim

    Just to emphasize .....  I only like , and get good results with that one brand of foam brushes.

Seth

  +1 on that brand of brush. After buying some 'other' brushes from Woodworkers Supply and thinking, hey, how bad could they be...  I found out... [mad]..... [embarassed]
Unlike the JEN brand, these had a rubber center that allowed way too much flex, and the foam came off the rubber core, or the wood handle came loose as well. Soooo, I now buy JEN from Jamestown Distributing by the box... Lesson learned.  [cool]