REDUX a catching Avatar!

[Cochese]

with respect, to think you could have the fog in some perceived sweet spot is a little naïve.

I'm cool with fluid and evolving and, as an example, I'm not asking or hoping to roll back the clock with regard to the wider international membership we've seen of late and some of their amazing projects. None of that.

Go back a couple of years and you'll see similar active debates about issues and problems, and that's healthy and I positively encourage it. But you'll also find a degree of civility and shared empathy that has been lost somewhat of late. That's what we're looking to get back to.

That and more projects. And I'm definitely useless with regard to personal contributions to the latter...  [crying]

I stopped posting here awhile back (and deleted all my posts) because of the attitude of a select few, and for how much of an echo chamber it really was. If we're bringing civility back, then I would certainly consider posting again. Some of it was downright childish behavior at some people having the audacity to suggest alternate tool brands. I know this is a Festool forum, and owned the same, but healthy and informed opinions on how the products co-exist with alternates should help improve the brand - if that conversation is one they are interested in. I can't have my entire workshop be Festool even if I wanted it to, thanks to some of the decisions not to market items here. That's conversation for a different thread, though.

I'll be watching to see how this goes.

 

[ear3]

Agree and agree.  I think a good first step would be for FestoolUSA to regularly answer the posts in the Ask Festool subforum.  I know sometimes the posts are basic inquiries that a regular Festool user can answer, but it would still demonstrate the extra commitment to the end user that is central to their brand, and which is part of the reason why many of us stick with Festool (knowing how this commitment is regularly demonstrated in things like the relationship we develop with our dealers or the consistently excellent and rapid repairs of Festool service).

As for the other stuff -- I've only been a member since 2014, but I guess I have noticed an unfortunate degeneration in some of the conversations into the personal.  While some of these have occurred in threads related to tool problems or debates about the merits of a particular machine (the Kapex being the most obvious example), I think the Festool vs. non-Festool issue or any disparity between the Festool brand/image and reality is ultimately a separate issue from personal attacks.  There's bad news and good news about this.  The bad news is that it only takes one or two insecure or p*ssed off people to bring the thread into the gutter.  But that's also the good news, because it can turn around really quickly once those voices disappear or are marginalized.  I know this from teaching that there is a strange alchemy in the classroom of personalities and attitudes, and that all it takes is a couple of people to swing a class positively or negatively, such that you can present the same lecture to two different groups of students and have it be received completely differently.  I'm not advocating for direct censorship here, but I will simply try to do my part to model helpful and respectful conversations so that those prone to making things personal don't feel like there's a culture on the FOG that tolerates that sort of thing. 

I find it very disturbing that Festool USA made such a fuss about taking ownership of this forum and now seem to have abandoned it . I see no or very little activity of any Festool USA employees . I see no leadership from them either, what gives?

The mods have my utmost respect for doing , what must be a soul destroying job

 

[bobfog]

I was thinking the same thing earlier. I haven't been a member that long, but I've been a lurker for a couple of years. When Shane was the forum head honcho he was a personality, but since the new guy Tyler has taken over it's all gone flat in terms of a Festool voice.

I mean the guy hasn't even bothered to upload a personalised avatar, which for a staff member and forum administrator seems a bit nonchalant. I think Phil Beckley is a far bigger asset to the forum.

 

[windmill man]

You almost get the impression that festool uk care more about what's happening than festool USA  this I find very strange as it was festool USA that got heavy about taking over this forum  And we still have not heard from the owners of the forum   

 

[windmill man]

I hope they are supporting our moderators better than the site , I am really feeling for Peter and Seth, having to carry this forum , under the present circumstances

 

[Kevin McConville]

I was thinking the same thing earlier. I haven't been a member that long, but I've been a lurker for a couple of years. When Shane was the forum head honcho he was a personality, but since the new guy Tyler has taken over it's all gone flat in terms of a Festool voice.

I mean the guy hasn't even bothered to upload an avatar, which for a staff member and forum administrator seems a bit nonchalant. I think Phil Beckley is a far bigger asset to the forum.

One merely has to look at posts like this to see where we are at today. You can follow my earlier posts on lack of Festool support to see I most certainly believe that since Shane has left the Manufacturer side of the forum to the user side we are left with very little support from Festool and our admins are taking most of the heat.  However it is out of line to conclude that Tyler is unconcerned or even negligent in his performance.  We have no idea what is asked of him by his management and I don't believe there was any need for an unprovoked attack on him.  This type of post seems intended to merely cause / create controversy rather than to forward the discussion.

 

[bobfog]

I was thinking the same thing earlier. I haven't been a member that long, but I've been a lurker for a couple of years. When Shane was the forum head honcho he was a personality, but since the new guy Tyler has taken over it's all gone flat in terms of a Festool voice.

I mean the guy hasn't even bothered to upload an avatar, which for a staff member and forum administrator seems a bit nonchalant. I think Phil Beckley is a far bigger asset to the forum.

One merely has to look at posts like this to see where we are at today. You can follow my earlier posts on lack of Festool support to see I most certainly believe that since Shane has left the Manufacturer side of the forum to the user side we are left with very little support from Festool and our admins are taking most of the heat.  However it is out of line to conclude that Tyler is unconcerned or even negligent in his performance.  We have no idea what is asked of him by his management and I don't believe there was any need for an unprovoked attack on him.  This type of post seems intended to merely cause / create controversy rather than to forward the discussion.

It wasn't an attack. It is merely an observation. I agree we don't know what Tyler's remit is or what other responsibilities he has and how much time he is allowed to contribute to the forum. I was commenting on the effect, not the cause of the situation.

One thing I will say however, it might not be apparent to people outside the UK, but Phil posts WAY outside office hours on a regular basis.

So I apologise if you think my post was an attack, I'd defend it as a frank observation.

I believe it forwards the conversation because if the forum is to be truly "redux'd" then all the things that were good in the past and poor now need to be considered, both staff and consumer member contributions!

 

[peter halle]

I find it interesting that over the years my changing avatars have been noticed.  They have told stories and sent messages that I chose not to put into words.  They have shown tools coming, all of my Fog influenced dogs, the Fogtainers, my personal life, etc.  My avatars have been like mood rings.  For those who haven't been alive as long as Tinker and I you can use Google to search for Mood Rings.

This will be a long post - I have much to say and although I might mention that I am a moderator at times this post is as a member and everything posted here is my opinion.  Festool has never influenced my posts and they will read this at the same time as you. 

I thought it appropriate to ask permission from the originator of this thread to lock this thread for 24 hours after my posting in order to give members who wanted to respond a chance to do so after thought versus off-the-cuff.  I received that permission so consider and then post.

But before I start I would like to thank all 27 members who voted for me to become a Moderator back in 2009.  I have mostly enjoyed the journey since then.  I've had a chance to experience things (not as many as hoped) that I wouldn't have otherwise.  I have had a chance to meet many members on a different level both here and in person.  I have seen thru reading the happiness of members when a joy came into their lives (and I have calendar reminders set up) and unfortunately I have experienced sadness here when learning about illness, death, or other personal issues.  You have all seen the same from me.  My life for the last 5.5 years has been about the FOG and the members while also dealing with my own issues.  I have always shared my issues - not for sympathy or empathy - but rather as a reminder that we all go thru stuff and there are others who have travelled that road before; and will travel it again.

So here goes:

What Does the Avatar Mean? - The FOG has evolved and has become larger over the time I've been here but frankly I think that has not been a good thing because with a larger field of view there comes a harder challenge to focus.  The growth isn't what is causing the issues.  We are the issue.  And we need to change how we think about this community and what it will offer in the future not only to us but also to those who come along.  Or I fear that honestly the core of the forum has been lost forever and we will continue on the slide into obscurity.  Evolution or extinction are what I feel we are facing.  We need to revive and roll back to the core in order to survive.

Why Do You Say That? - The FOG started out as a place where education and reaction about Festool products was the core.  There wasn't another place to readily get the information.  It has grown so much that on any given day it is possible at certain times to see that most of the posters are from other countries. We now also have tons of new Members who are starting out the same way we all did - one tool at a time.

But instead of being helpful many of the responses to their questions aren't being helpful.  A thread that stays on topic - which is helpful to all - is a rarity now at best.  At times it appears that there are Members here that rather than answer and help are motivated to dissuade and rather guide away.  I am not suggesting that everything has to be pro-Festool here and that Festool is perfect.  Quite the opposite.  Rather I am saying that if a person asks about a feature about a specific Festool product the response is an answering post rather than automatic XXXXX is better when in fact the answerer really in many cases hasn't even used both to compare.

It also seems that all too often we are looking to pick on the most insignificant aspect of a post in order to respond and "prove" superiority. There is a major difference between suggestions and criticisms and it is all about how we post.  I have read about how the forum needs more project based posts and pictures.  Honestly if a poster has seen the responses of some in other project threads then I would wonder why anyone would post about new projects and especially with images.  It sometimes takes years for a new Member to post let alone show a project that they are proud of.  We are the reason why.

WE are here to help, share, educate, and learn ourselves.

OK.  You Are So Smart, What Do We Do? - I might be smart but I don't have all the answers because those reside inside of us in a collective group.  But stop.  Take time away from the forum and think about why you came here in the first place.  Think about what knowledge you gained here at the effort of someone who had to build up the courage to post the first time.  And the second, and the third, and the ....  Read a post and think before you write a response.  Wonder what might have caused all those who shared information with you to disappear.  Wonder what it would be like if everyone did what you just did for even 5 minutes.  Then write and offer knowledge like you got somehow here.

Peter, But This is the Internet and Time is in Nano-Seconds - Absolutely.  But as a woodworker and a carpenter haste makes waste (garbage).  Garbage in and out.  Think and read before composing and posting.  How you say something can make the same message helpful or hateful.  We shouldn't tolerate hateful here.  It prevents new ideas.  And those ideas not being posted could be the ones you would have loved to read.

Why are You Posting This? - I'm ticked.  At myself and the collective group.  We have let ourselves fall into the same trap that has killed so many other forums and I hope that this tome might cause even one post to be rethought before its posting.  That one tiny mistake in a post be ignored.  That we concentrate on the good versus what might make us happy when we had a bad day and wanted to strangle the boss and couldn't.  That when a question comes up there are real life people out there to share answers and maybe alternatives in the collective goal of help versus hurt.

But Festool Doesn't Seem to Care and Participate Anymore.  Why Should We Care and Try? - My post isn't about Festool's involvement.  Do I think there are issues there? Yes.  But I will not discuss my thoughts on that aspect.  I will say that in some ways we might have been part of a disconnect.  From my own personal experiences it is far easier to love and nurture a puppy that is happy than a snarling one.  I am not saying that is the correct answer, but life brings many answers.  What this forum is represents all those who have posted here.  We are the guts of the forum and we will either make our efforts successful or a failure in the future by what we do today, tomorrow, next week and so on.  When it comes to the core and the content it is all about us - not Festool's involvement.

WE can do this.  I once read something that basically said that a blueberry muffin was only as good as the blueberries.  WE are the blueberries.  I also read that a habit is the easiest thing to change but the hardest thing to maintain change of.  WE can maintain the change and help others to do the same.

In closing, I have an avatar up there that you are free to click on and use as yours if you believe that change can happen.  If not, that is cool also.

Let's do this.

Peter

Unlocked

 

[bobfog]

I'm going to compose my reply in two parts to Peter's post.

Part 1- My opinion on the above.

To get straight to the crux of the matter, I think this whole redux thing has come about from a storm in an over-sensitive tea cup. I personally think the FOG is fine the way it is. A forum is a macrocosm of society, you have helpful people, people who are a little blunt, people who are over-opinionated, people who show blind loyalty to the brand, etc, etc. Sometimes we are all of these personalities but at differing times depending on our mood or the individual thread we're contributing to. Of course there needs to be boundaries, but this isn't a scout camp with us all sitting round a fire singing Kum Ba Yah. It's real life, people will have different opinions and disagreements will arise, not everyone will agree and provided what is said isn't overtly offensive a little tolerance to differing opinions and responses needs to be exercised.

Yesterday I pointed out the tongue in cheek irony of the Swordsaw (someone else took the thread off-track by mentioning the Swordsaw, not me) being deemed apparently too dangerous for the US market, yet there are more guns than people in the US and this was removed because it was supposedly too volatile for the forum. I mean really? Are we not adults? So that's my broad opinion on Redux. You say you don't want the forum to become extinct, let me tell you more forums have died a death through being over moderated in an ill-fated attempt to keep them too vanilla and warm and fluffy, than those that occasionally have a few controversial comments or threads.

One particular point I would like to make is this - I don't consider this a Festool tool forum, I consider it a forum for people own or aspire to own Festool to discuss wood-working/carpentry/construction in general. They may own Festool, but they probably own a lot of other tools. If someone asks about X Festool but a member thinks a tool from another manufacturer is better I think that it is appropriate to champion the other tool. In short this is a forum for Festool owners not just a voice piece for Festool sales. I beleive many people feel the same and consider this place a general discussion board on a broad range of topics, not simply a Festool resource.

Part 2

I will play devil's advocate and the above not withstanding, offer these suggestions:

Firstly I think we need to address, not dismiss the elephant in the room... Festool's involvement and general leadership/stewardship of the forum.

I was mowing my lawn earlier and it occurred to me that a forum is a lot like a lawn. A lawn starts out as a patch of mud (the server/software/database) and grows when seeds are introduced to the mud (the members). However to get a lawn that is something to be proud of, you can't just expect to introduce some seed to mud and plead with it to grow into a luscious healthy lawn. You have to fertilise it, aerate the soil, water it, mow it regularly to encourage growth, etc. No matter how much you plead with it, if it's not nurtured it will be a fragmented, patchy, ugly mess that you're constantly picking weeds out of and complaining about.

This forum isn't nurtured.

* Where is the representative from Festool HQ in Germany to add value to the forum? To give insights from the fatherland? To encourage advocacy by giving us the occasional peak behind the curtain...

* Where are the monthly competitions to encourage community spirit? Maybe a "show it off" competition for our wood-working or maybe just a caption competition. Maybe Festool could provide a few prizes. Or maybe the retailers, who as far as I'm aware don't have to pay to have a business presence on the FOG could put their hands in their pockets once in a while to give something back for having their websites advertised in their signatures, etc. There are retailers in most areas as members and if not Festool should encourage them to join and engage. I know there's a broad geographical user group but I'm sure it's not an insurmountable problem to sort something out. Maybe do a regional competition with a different region each month.

* In the interest of education, why didn't Festool (a huge multinational company) have a backup of all the database/images that were lost with all the phots from members? I know of forums run out of the personal funds of individuals that have backups and secondary off-site backups of the entire database to ensure the time invested by members in contributing to the forum will never be lost. For Festool not to have had a handle on this is inexcusable.

*Why is there no way to "Like" or "upvote" a post and members to gain reputation points to encourage the community spirit you desire? This is such a basic forum feature and would likely go a long way in contributing to the type of forum you desire. 

So, in closing I don't think he forum is as bad as the picture that is being painted. But if it is to be improved simply pleading with the members isn't the answer.

 

[ear3]

Thanks for the extensive comments [member=1674]Peter Halle[/member] and the thoughtful response [member=60286]bobfog[/member] BTW, as bobfog was typing up that reply I was simultaneously posting a thread that touched upon one of his suggestions about the greater involvement of retailers on the FOG, so I'll take that as a second.

I was wondering Peter if I could press you a bit on spelling out more what you mean in the section under "Why Do You Say That?"  I understand that for reasons of tact and discretion you maybe kept that section a bit more general, but rereading it now I'm trying to understand whether you think the current problems with the FOG are more of a content issue or a tonal one.  Meaning, do you think the substance of the threads currently on the FOG is substantively less than in previous years, or is it that people are more mean-spirited/petty/trollish?

Although I've racked up a fair number of posts by this point, I still feel like a relatively new member, since I've only been around since July 2014, so I'm not qualified to render judgment on the FOG now vs. the FOG then.  As I said in a previous post in this thread, i think there has been more pettiness of late, but I've found it to be restricted to certain areas and individuals, and so it has not diminished the overall benefit I continue to derive from the Forum.

 

[peter halle]

[member=37411]Edward A Reno III[/member],

Do I feel that the content is not what it once was?  Yes,

Do I think that the tone of the FOG has something to do with that?  Yes.  Obviously I feel that the tone makes especially newer members less likely to take the plunge to post for the first time, but it also grates at those who have posted many times causing the "Why do I bother?" syndrome.  I bet there are a bunch of lurkers out there who once were prolific nodding their heads right now.

But also driving my opinion about the content not being what it once was is that Festool offers especially here a limited assortment of tools and in the early days there was a ton of knowledge to share as people were learning their tools and got excited about being the first to share something previously unwritten.  There will be a natural plateau in the knowledge that can be shared without the introduction of more tools and more importantly in my mind the display of the usage of the tools which in turn will hopefully spur others to feel comfortable to do the same.

An example of what I am talking about.  Within the last two months I was contacted by a Festool dealer about possibly doing videos about several of the mainstream Festool products.  I listened to the idea and explained that I was a moderator here (he had no idea what the FOG was) and that in order to do the videos for payment I would have to resign my position here.  I told him that I would think on it and call him back.  I thought.  I called back.  I said I wasn't interested because the tools had hundreds of videos out there - including Festool produced ones - and I would be taking their money for nothing.  I did offer some suggestions on how they could accomplish the same but wrap it around a building a workshop theme.  I recognized the plateau but offered a way to go beyond that in a more creative way.

I hope that this helps explain.

Peter

 

[peter halle]

[member=60286]bobfog[/member],

Thank you for posting your thoughts and feelings.

As I wrote I believe that there are other issues here beyond us as members.  I also believe that this thread has already been read and we will see. 

I can honestly tell you that this is a very unmoderated forum when it comes to the deletion of posts.  Unfortunately you stepped on one issue that has regularly been enforced.

Peter

 

[Scott B.]

Forums implode when the sense of entitlement becomes too strong. Those who haven't read Lord of the Flies should.

No forum is an island.

 

[mikeomalley]

Hit the nail on the head there Scott.

 

[sancho57]

I want to thank the OP and others who have contributed to this thread. I think it's been a long time coming. Garry, Peter you both did a excellent job in describing what has been going on.

Here are my 2 pence worth. [unsure]

What I find that seems to be happening more and more is strangers ( newbies) and as their first post, start ragging on Festool for one reason or another. Then that's it, they go back off to obscurity.

I made a comment about that once and Garry M PM'd me and rightly so a talked to me about my comment. He mentioned that the forum has gone south and my comment wasn't really helping matters any ( my words not his but the jist of what he told me)

He was right. There is one now who came. Out of no where proudly stating his qualifications as a wood worker but no real focus to his post, For whatever reason he chose to come here. He does not have in my mind any intent other then starting a mess.

I chose to ignore his post and go on. I suggest others do that to both to him and future ones like him.

As far as the rude comments, yes I am seeing more and more of them. I had folks pick the corn out of the shirt on some of my post.  I guess some folks have egos that like to be fed and want the world to know what woodworking geniuses they are

I chose not to get into a flame war, let them have their say, not respond to them and go on. Make them feel they got the last word and they can go and high 5 each other and disappear into thin air until they get bored again and return.

I've learned not to feed the trolls. They will go get their egos fed somewhere else eventually.

We need to keep our sense of community here. I have developed relationships/ friendships with folks here some I met at a end users class others I've emailed and asked questions when I needed help and we email each other quite frequently. [smile] others I met at woodworking shows and at my BBQ .

Some I jokingly harass all in fun as a little banter is a good thing right Kev?

The bottom line is its really our forum. It's up to us to police it. I have seen that starting to happen when members tell others to keep it civil.

I have noticed that we are getting less and less project photos.

I don't post mine, because well frankly, I haven't built anything in the last few years that is worth posting here. Plus you guys make some beautiful projects, mine are not up to that level

Being in the UK temporarily for a few years I don't build anything other then craft type projects which are very basic. I'm in a rental and I enjoy working on my house and building things like closet organisers, remodelling  rooms etc. I don't do that here.

I'm also not that cleaver to come up with jigs and creative techniques to do things.

I do see more and more questions about what tools I need for this project and I don't have any festools yet but if I did what would I need to.......

I also noticed a lot less of folks asking advice on how to do something .

Maybe we should have a noob page where the noobs can come ask those sort of questions . They don't seem to want to use the search button.

Most of the same questions have been asked and answered repeatedly. Even a FAQ page for reference .

That could be what causes most of the pros experienced wood workers to go on to other sites.

There has also been less and less dealer involvement giving advice, Tom B would post regularly here helping with how to do this or that and with part numbers etc, same with Bob.

Now the only dealer involvement I see regularly is hey we having a special on this or that WP OTT is ready for preorder etc etc.

As been pointed out even festool seemed to have dropped the ball, when people need help they have been noticeably silent. Phil B does help when he can, but he is on the road quite a bit and has very little time.

So IMO we need to police this place ourselves.

Sorry for the long rant. I do get rather long winded

 

[Kev]

Some I jokingly harass all in fun as a little banter is a good thing right Kev?

[eek] I'm crushed and I'll never be the same [crying]

 

[Stephen B]

I do not regret starting this Thread and thanks again to Peter and all who have contributed to date. I agree with much of what most have posted and can add little  to what I wrote  in Reply # 10. However I want to say a little more about projects and discuss international membership.

Projects -
I enjoy posting projects on the FOG. I certainly do not publish them all, far from it. But if I think a project might help others, or I want some constructive feedback, or just wish to record it,  I will start documenting it during the construction process.

I am not the most gifted publisher of projects, but I think the FOG would be greatly enriched if more Projects reflecting a cross range of acceptable ability were published and respectfully discussed. At times these project threads can generate discussion regarding materials and methods beyond the project itself. I encourage more members to post their projects and comment on others.

International Membership -.
This has been referred to several times in the Thread to date.

Cultural nuances can sometimes be unintentionally misinterpreted or misunderstood. For example if I call [member=13058]Kev[/member] a "silly old bu---r" , I am not questioning his sexual orientation. He would smile and laugh, but I doubt I should ever say that to someone from NA.  Conversely the subject referered to by [member=60286]bobfog[/member] is one met with dismay if not outrage by many living in Australia and Europe. I am not debating it here - it's just how it is for many outside the US.

So yes, this international membership does create some extra workload for our moderators. BUT it also enriches the FOG by providing excellent opportunities for cultural understanding, tolerance and learning of how certain processes and methods can differ country to country; or just having a chat with someone as I did with [member=60678]slalom[/member] the other day about Coyotes, Wolves, Dogs and Dingos.  [smile]

The FOG is a significant element in my growth as a woodworker. I want it to prosper. As I said in #10, not be 'cheesy', but have some respectfull backbone.

 

[mrboult]

As a member of many forms over the years, photography, tool, guitar, computer etc 
I  think the FOG is still in pretty great shape! It's probably the second friendliest forum I've ever used. .

I honestly forget how long I have been lurking/posting here... But yes I have noticed a slight increase in aggressive and negative posts. Often by new members who soon. disappear again.

As time moves on the FOG grows,, membership grows, dynamics change, people leave, negativity creeps in and some of the cozy coffee morning feeling is lost...

But this is still a top notch forum - thanks to  all its contributing members for that.