RO 90 Review in JLC

Sparktrician

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Anybody besides me notice that the RO 90 was reviewed by Tom O'Brien on page 81 in the June '12 issue of JLC? 

[smile]
 
Reading that review from JLC told me the reviewer needs to attend Festool End User classes!

Had he taken the time to be taught effective ways of using the RO90DX all of his complaints would have vanished. Simply owning a massive collection of sanders does not mean said owner is effective using any of those sanders. Chances are in a class such as Intro to Festools, which still has openings for the September class in Henderson, NV as I write this, that reviewer would become far more efficient using the RO 150 he claims to own. Since he wrote it is 10 years old that is not the current version.

The reviewer never mentioned which pad he was using. For most of the applications he discussed the RO 90 DX hard pad would be most appropriate. That preserves the crispness of edges.

I own a lot of sanders, including all the electric ones currently sold in NA by Festool. This hardly means I am world-class using all of those. When the part is large enough, I tend to use 150mm sanders. Since before I sand solid lumber I have milled it on my jointer and thickness planer, I seldom need rotary mode. I have used my RO 150 most days since I bought it in 2007 and feel at one with it. I feel the same about my trusted DX93 Deltex, ETS 150/3 and my RO 90 DX in all modes. I specialize in European-style frameless cabinets, so for me when a frame is 25mm wide that is novel. For narrow frames the RO 90 DX is ideal.

Personally I believe that reviews would have so much added value if the reviewer used the tools as recommended by the manufacturer, especially when classes are available at nominal cost. When a review complains about an ops manual and does not have the imagination to also use the supplemental manual, and publishes a photo of a sander in use with a most ineffective grip, then I am sure that is a woodworker who need not apply for a job in my shop. I wish it were possible to tele-transport  Steve Bace or Brian Sedgeley to whisper discreet instruction in that reviewers ear.
 
Carroll, those classes are really fairly priced and both those instructors are awesome, but for me its like a $500 roundtrip affair to Vegas, so you cant really expect the reviewer to have gone to them. Other tool manufacturers dont even have classes like Festool. I think its a pretty well known fact that Festool doesnt put a lot of effort into the manuals. Ive barely ever used them myself. That being said other companies dont have an online forum like this where information is so accessible. Festool should really do every new buyer a favor and put a postcard in with every tool that shows how to logon here.

I know the first time i held and RO90, i didnt know what to do with it. Seemed best to hold with one hand, like the ETS125, but then you got that tail end hanging off the back. Eric
 
I don't know, CC, if he went to Festool training that would open a whole other can of critical worms about the review.

Obviously, that isn't a JLC "feature" piece, so the writer didnt have 3000 words to discuss the tool. It was a simple spotlight on the tool kind of piece, apparently intended to cover the basics, which it does reasonably well. The 90 clearly has a broader skill set than could be shown in that particular review. Some of the features and applications that I (and many others) like best about it are not mentioned, for instance. It is alot more than a siding prep sander. That happens to be a strength, but that sander runs alot deeper. And the Deltex is useful for alot more than just doing what the round pad cant reach. There are many tasks specific to that triangular attachment, and the extended version of it.

Using the Ro150 and the Multimaster as frames of reference for the RO90 are not ideal comparisons. It's size/power/weight ratios are pretty unique. I couldnt really tell from the commentary if  the reviewer felt that it was overpowered or underpowered, but one of the beauties of the Festool sander family is your ability to tweak the attitude of the sander through abrasive selection, extraction rate and speed setting, which isnt really mentioned in the article. It has multiple personalities, depending on how those 3 variables are set for the task at hand. Any Festool sander, I find it necessary before I put it on a real work piece, I have to find the sweet spot of those three variables. Every single one of them has one.

One thing we all (regular users and students of Festool) have to keep in mind is that if a someone who had never heard of the 90 before were to read that article, would it cover the basics well enough and accurately enough to help them decide if they wanted to look further into it? I think the answer is yes.
 
With all due respect, many of us who contribute to FOG are frequently published authors and editors. Please keep that in mind when presuming to lecture all of us.

I wrote a considered post about the JLC review because I do not consider it fair or even sensible. It reminded me of the dust extraction/collection piece in which the CT26 was compared with its bag removed. Is that fair or sensible?

My take on the JLC review, and remember all we can read is the edited final version. We can only speculate what was in the author's draft, and what the word-count budget allowed. Perhaps what is needed are fewer reviews so the ones published can provide adequate accurate information.

Is it your position that allowing an untrained person to use a tool and write a review makes sense?

Is it your position that in some way attending training classes will compromise the integrity of JLC?

The fact is I have participated in Festool End User classes which included writers and editors from other professional woodworking trade journals? Are you saying that in some way they were influenced to the detriment of other brands of tools? You do understand that some of us who also own woodworking businesses reach our position with a lot of real-world experience? I earned a great living as a studio executive for 50 years, and for many of those years I ran a successful custom cabinet business on the side. Along the way my studio paid for my legal education and I am still licensed to practice in more than one state, so if you want to debate the legal issues of offering training classes to reviewers, I will be more than happy to do so in PM or by e-mail.
 
ericbuggeln said:
Carroll, those classes are really fairly priced and both those instructors are awesome, but for me its like a $500 roundtrip affair to Vegas, so you cant really expect the reviewer to have gone to them. Other tool manufacturers dont even have classes like Festool. I think its a pretty well known fact that Festool doesnt put a lot of effort into the manuals. Ive barely ever used them myself. That being said other companies dont have an online forum like this where information is so accessible. Festool should really do every new buyer a favor and put a postcard in with every tool that shows how to logon here.

I know the first time i held and RO90, i didnt know what to do with it. Seemed best to hold with one hand, like the ETS125, but then you got that tail end hanging off the back. Eric

Eric, all of us spend our money for transportation, food and lodging to attend Festool classes. We gladly pay the tuition. We take valuable time away from our businesses. Although by straight line CT is closer to IN than NV, because of the number of flights to Las Vegas, it well could be less expensive for you to travel there. But all that is your choice.

The thing is that when a reviewer is not using a tool in an effective way, and blames the design of the tool, then in my opinion, this is a huge problem. Someone else said that JLC did not provide enough space for a more detailed article.

These days there seems to be a proliferation of woodworking publications. What proportion of those authors and editors can actually build quality work at a pace allowing them to earn a living doing so? Could it be those who actually do earn a decent living working with wood do not have the time to write articles? Maybe yes, maybe no.

Okay, you have invested in several Festools. Good for you. Now consider how much more valuable those tools will become when you have received expert coaching to get the most from each? Generally you are right, the ideal place to apply pressure on a sander is on the center of the rotating shaft. With a palm sander one hand is enough. Longer sanders, such as the RO 150, RO 125 and the RO 90 DX need a slightly different approach as shown in many instructional videos. To prevent the end with the Plug-It and the extraction hose drooping, use a light grip off the sander body, so all you are doing is keeping the saner level. The same concept works wonders with a Domino as well.

See, a lot of us consider the entire investment in a system, not just the money spent to buy some tools. To me the cost of the classes is a tiny part of the investment. Once I return to my shop following a class, I am better at coaching my cabinet makers when they ask for such coaching. I am not now nor will I ever become a coach in the class of Steve Bace and Brian Sedgeley, but I am a heck of a lot better coach than if I had not participated in many classes. In those classes I also could observe the way my fellow participants use the tools. My body is what it is. I have cabinet makers working with me who are larger and smaller. Sometimes in class there are participants shorter than me, and usually some vastly taller. I see what works for them and how Steve and Brian coach each to make the best use of the individual body.

So, yes, when I see the lead illustration of a review of the RO 90 DX which violates every principle of effectively using that sander, then I am offended. Not only did the reviewer have no clue how to bring out the best from the sander, neither did anyone involved in photo selection and editing.

There was not enough space to discuss the features, and yet there was space to go on and on about the reviewer having problems turning off the power? Festool power switches all work very much the same way. I would think as part of checking out a tool new to you finding how to turn off the power would be an important thing. Of course with a sander do we actually turn off power while the sander is in contact with the work? When you hold an RO 90 DX effectively there is absolutely no problem working the off-switch.
 
It's funny timing.  I've been reposting my RO90 review on my blog over the lase few days.  I just finished the last part tonight about my experiences with it over the last year.  I focused more on using it for painting prep because that's what I used it for most.  I've been to end trainer classes but there are still some things I don't like as much as others about the RO90. I guess that I feel regardless of experience or training or not we all have our dislikes.  I'm willing to let the reviewer in question have his own opinions. 
 
I'm surprised there's been no comments on the article where it's published.

In Oz I buy my Festools over the counter at a Festool Premium Dealer - you don't get out of te store without getting operational instruction. Prior to this I've typically had a hands on demo prior to my purchase decision. Yes we pay more for our tools - but I'm starting to feel I get a lot more value.

I would consider this article almost like getting an average driver to review a flying car ...  [wink]
 
CC
I apologize if my post (or any of my posts on FOG) came of as lecture form, I come here to learn and share where I can. There is a tremendous pool of talent and knowledge here that I find fascinating, and this forum does a great job of promoting mature discussion.

To your questions:

"Is it your position that allowing an untrained person to use a tool and write a review makes sense?"

I don't think we can safely draw the conclusion that the writer is untrained. According to the byline at the end of his piece, he is a pro carpenter and contributing editor at jlc the magazine. He may or may not have ever attended a Festool training class, we don't know for sure I guess. Maybe he has been to a jlc live event and spoken with Brian or Steve or watched one of their remarkable live demonstrations with the sanders. It takes months and months to fully "get" the whole skill set of the 90, and there are no two human beings on the planet that can accelerate that learning curve better than Steve or Brian. They can, and do, teach about the tool, but the user has to go out and use it to understand and master the tool for the type of work that he does. I do enjoy hearing what other people find difficult about the sanders, and you are absolutely correct that alot of the time it comes down to simple technique. We all came up through with Dewalt and Bosch sanders, and switching to festool sanders requires a paradigm shift in technique and approach to surface preparation. The fact that the writer only references experience with an older 150 isn't a huge frame of reference. The 150 is a simpler and entirely different beast. It can take alot of guys months and years to gain absolute proficiency in the entire task range of any of these sanders. I read posts here on the fog all the time and learn new things about these tools. And you are correct that its an entire system that can be deeply explored, especially if you are with them 8 hours a day in every possible situation that the jobs require. So, I don't think it should be a prerequisite that in order to write a review you have to have taken a Festool training course. I think it is an amazing facility and program for people who really want to master the tools. If the reviewer did take the course and state it in the article, there would be plenty of readers who would be turned off by that I think. But in theory you are correct, if he did take the course, the article would probably reflect that in what most of us would consider a positive way.

"Is it your position that in some way attending training classes will compromise the integrity of JLC?"

No, not at all. I think it would be great. It's education that everyone could use. Dealers send their staffs to training in many cases, I believe, so that they know the tools they are handling. Festool is a different type of a system. That is one of the biggest things that people need to know, is that even just the sanders, abrasives and extractors are much better discussed and used when it is done properly. To my knowledge, not many tool manufacturers offer that specific and intensive training, and I think it shows a commitment to education, which all of the trades need.
 
Let me see if I can diffuse the debate about the reviewer's knowledge level of the tool. Really, that's our responsibility. We should make sure that when someone is reviewing one of our tools that they are well informed about it's features, applications, and use. I don't think it's reasonable to expect editors to attend our training classes, but I do think that we should educate them by all possible means. I don't the specifics of the conversations with Tom before he wrote the article, but I'll be sure to pass this along so we can hopefully do a better job in the future. I'd prefer we concentrate on the value in the article and not criticize its author.

Now, let's talk about the merits of the RO 90. [smile]
 
As a bit of history, Tom O'Brien was a renovation and reconstruction carpenter in my hometown of Richmond, Va.  I first learned of him after reading a piece he authored for Fine Homebiuling magazine on the propr way to use epoxy to restore rot damage.  He later moved to Connecticut and went to work for Taunton Press at Fine Homebuilding and several pieces published.

He is now doing some writing for JLC.

Disclosure:  I never met Tom, I have never corresponded with Tom, but I have read some of his work.

Peter
 
Shane Holland said:
Now, let's talk about the merits of the RO 90. [smile]

Merits:

- it is the only tool for exterior spindle rail preparation
- in addition to the 3 functions it is most famous for, it can also do some interesting things with interface pads.
 
Scott B. said:
Shane Holland said:
Now, let's talk about the merits of the RO 90. [smile]

Merits:

- it is the only tool for exterior spindle rail preparation
- in addition to the 3 functions it is most famous for, it can also do some interesting things with interface pads.

You got that right.  I once used the RO90 interface pad with viles  (in Rotex mode) to clean the most disgusting bathtub I've ever seen. [scared]
 
Scott B. said:
Shane Holland said:
Now, let's talk about the merits of the RO 90. [smile]

Merits:

- it is the only tool for exterior spindle rail preparation
- in addition to the 3 functions it is most famous for, it can also do some interesting things with interface pads.
Not trying to derail the thread, but the RO90 does a nice job of spot polishing with LC Hydrotech pads.

Regards,

Dan.

DTC20120520147-X2.jpg
 
Shane Holland said:
Let me see if I can diffuse the debate about the reviewer's knowledge level of the tool. Really, that's our responsibility. We should make sure that when someone is reviewing one of our tools that they are well informed about it's features, applications, and use. I don't think it's reasonable to expect editors to attend our training classes, but I do think that we should educate them by all possible means. I don't the specifics of the conversations with Tom before he wrote the article, but I'll be sure to pass this along so we can hopefully do a better job in the future. I'd prefer we concentrate on the value in the article and not criticize its author.

Now, let's talk about the merits of the RO 90. [smile]

Thank you Shane and Peter,

I have no reason to doubt that the reviewer has a long background as a carpenter.

My concern is that he clearly had no instruction in the ways Festool designed the RO 90 DX to be used. Virtually all of the negative comments about the tool in this review would have been answered by following the techniques coached in classes.

One would hope an experienced carpenter would have long ago developed his/her own technique for keeping a long-body sander, such as the RO 90 DX, level or parallel, to the surface while in use. By the same token, when the intention is to maintain crisp edges while sanding, the use of hard pads should be well known.

Dan Clark has a photo of an RO 90 DX in use spot polishing. This clearly shows a very good grip for that task. Imagine Dan's right hand on the top of the pad end of the sander. That is the technique advocated in Festool classes. Maybe Shane can find one and post it.

 
Brice Burrell said:
Scott B. said:
Shane Holland said:
Now, let's talk about the merits of the RO 90. [smile]

Merits:

- it is the only tool for exterior spindle rail preparation
- in addition to the 3 functions it is most famous for, it can also do some interesting things with interface pads.

You got that right.  I once used the RO90 interface pad with viles  (in Rotex mode) to clean the most disgusting bathtub I've ever seen. [scared]

It can also put a quick wax on a couple of snowboards.

I recently learned that you can double the interface pads up as well, to conform to deeper profile surfaces. The speed control really comes in handy.
 
I've been watching lots of video on surfboard making (mainly looking ad wooden surfboard making techniques ... but general shaping as well).

The sort of things you see the average surfboard shaper do with a power planer, circular saw and a sander would give sleepless nights!  [eek]

... lovely results though  [smile]

Anyway, a RO90 would be a perfect tool for the custom surfboard maker ... though you may end up seeing a few of them holding it with their teeth.
 
What grit, I'm interested in using my 90 for similar situations

Brice Burrell said:
Scott B. said:
Shane Holland said:
Now, let's talk about the merits of the RO 90. [smile]

Merits:

- it is the only tool for exterior spindle rail preparation
- in addition to the 3 functions it is most famous for, it can also do some interesting things with interface pads.

You got that right.  I once used the RO90 interface pad with viles  (in Rotex mode) to clean the most disgusting bathtub I've ever seen. [scared]
 
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