Road use tax for EVs?

Holzhacker said:
Don't forget about the Hybrids changing the amount of purchases and revenue.
Mine gets +/- 40 mpg resulting in roughly 1/2 as many trips to the gas station.
Click to expand...

Hybrids hurt my head at first. I would see the quoted fuel mileage numbers and it just didn't seem right?
Everyone "knows" that you get better mileage on the highway, and less in the city. The stop and go hurts it significantly. That's just not the case with the hybrids though. They are just the opposite. They do most of the city running on the electric motor, then get some charging done while the gasoline engine is moving down the highway. This must reduce the highway mileage some? but apparently the electric running makes up for it?
I assume that to get the best overall from it, you have to have the proportion of city to highway in a particular percentage range? I'm new to the hybrid technology, but may go that direction if Toyota actually does what the predictors are saying.
 
It's funny as I was recently looking at the various offerings to potentially replace the missus's ageing Honda, and for us in OZ the Tesla is at least $20k above most of the various cars on the market. The Toyota CH-R Koba hybrid looked to me to be the best value and performance. I did the maths and the roughly extra $20k Tesla cost translated to at least 20+ years of fuel costs for the wife.

As an aside, LDV is bringing an EV ute to market, around $95k AUD with a range of 300km or so.
 
Crazyraceguy said:
Holzhacker said:
Don't forget about the Hybrids changing the amount of purchases and revenue.
Mine gets +/- 40 mpg resulting in roughly 1/2 as many trips to the gas station.
Click to expand...

Hybrids hurt my head at first. I would see the quoted fuel mileage numbers and it just didn't seem right?
Everyone "knows" that you get better mileage on the highway, and less in the city. The stop and go hurts it significantly. That's just not the case with the hybrids though. They are just the opposite. They do most of the city running on the electric motor, then get some charging done while the gasoline engine is moving down the highway. This must reduce the highway mileage some? but apparently the electric running makes up for it?
I assume that to get the best overall from it, you have to have the proportion of city to highway in a particular percentage range? I'm new to the hybrid technology, but may go that direction if Toyota actually does what the predictors are saying.
Click to expand...
Interestingly the same reversal for EV's since they lose so much energy to drag at high speed (square of velocity). But with hybrids and EV's you are recovering the energy in stop and go driving you'd normally give up where it's more efficient for drag.

It also helps that most hybrids are small and light, and engines have become so efficient.
 
Just put the 1st tank of gas in the new Hybrid
13.6 gallons = 527 miles, included city, highway and 2 days of trailer hauling
 
Back in the 1960s, many cars got less that 10 mpg.  My dad’s Buick station wagon got 6 mpg.

A friend of mine had a MG Midget and he was constantly bragging about his mpg, which was over 20 mpg.

As a practical joke, I surreptitiously started to add gasoline to his tank.

Slowly, over the period of several weeks, it drove his imagined fuel economy to first 25 mpg, then 30 mpg, to finally 50 mpg.  He bragged incessantly.

Then I stopped adding to his tank entirely.  His fuel economy plummeted to 20 mpg.

Certainly, there was now something wrong with his car.

My other friends were insiders and were enjoying this prank immensely.

He made an appointment to go to the MG dealer.  But before he could go, I fessed up.

He was pretty angry.  But I enjoyed it a great deal and I have played variations on it since then.

1974-MG-Midget-Mk-III-_1-1024x683.jpg
 
Packard said:
Back in the 1960s, many cars got less that 10 mpg.  My dad’s Buick station wagon got 6 mpg.

A friend of mine had a MG Midget and he was constantly bragging about his mpg, which was over 20 mpg.

As a practical joke, I surreptitiously started to add gasoline to his tank.

....
Click to expand...

I have heard a variation on this story, where after adding gasoline for a while, they started siphoning it out, so the milage went way down :-)

Bob
 
Holzhacker said:
Just put the 1st tank of gas in the new Hybrid
13.6 gallons = 527 miles, included city, highway and 2 days of trailer hauling
Click to expand...

[member=6145]Holzhacker[/member]  Which “Hybrid”?
 
Ford Maverick xlt hybrid. I ordered it august of 22. Just came in roughly a month ago.

So far its been great. Drives and handles good. Size works out well. Handles the trailer fine.
It's an entry level Ford so I'll either get really lucky and it will age well or it won't age well at all. Initial outlook seems good though.
As an FYI for others looking at vehicles. I looked at all the small truck type options last year to replace my beater.

I need a pickup / wagon type vehicle for work of course but since I don't do big jobs anymore I don't need a full size van or pickup.
I don't need or want an F150. Too expensive, too big to park where I often work and sucks way too much gas.
Didn't like the Chevy options at all and way too expensive.
Actually liked the Hyundai Santa Cruz but dealer mark ups and not being quite enough truck made it not worth it.
Really liked the Jeep open bed vehicle but was totally shocked by the price. I had no idea people were paying $60K+ for those things. No way was I going to pay that much for a Jeep, and entry level at that.
Really liked the Honda Ridgeline, would have bought one except for the price and lousy gas mileage since it only comes in 4 wheel drive. We don't get enough snow anymore to justify 4 wheel drive.
Its a tough car market out there. Dealer stock has gotten better from what I hear but still tough.

The Maverick worked from size, price and mileage perspectives. It was under $29K with options. I've owned a number of Fords, I like Fords but don't have much faith in Ford as a brand. We'll see how it goes.
The worst car I ever bought was a new Ford off the showroom floor. The only other brand new car I've bought is now this Ford Mav.
Ford has had issues with this vehicle but it seems to be a hit so far. If its an option you might want to think about placing an order when the order books open probably in August.
If you don't pick it up when it finally arrives the dealer won't care. They can sell it for more to someone else.
 
rmhinden said:
Packard said:
Back in the 1960s, many cars got less that 10 mpg.  My dad’s Buick station wagon got 6 mpg.

A friend of mine had a MG Midget and he was constantly bragging about his mpg, which was over 20 mpg.

As a practical joke, I surreptitiously started to add gasoline to his tank.

....
Click to expand...

I have heard a variation on this story, where after adding gasoline for a while, they started siphoning it out, so the milage went way down :-)

Bob
Click to expand...

I was mean; but I wasn’t evil.  So no siphoning was involved.
 
Holzhacker sounds good on the Maverick.  Were you able to get it for list or better?  The dealers here Columbus want to take on $10K, which of course is a non-starter for me.
 
Got it for MSRP per the order sheet I did on Fords website before the ordering days opened up in August. Took that order sheet to the dealer, they ordered, no changes or mark ups when it arrived.
Only way to get one at MSRP is to order factory direct. Lots of stories about dealers marking up 5 or 10K.
Dealer asked me multiple times if I wouldn't be interested in a good deal on something else knowing they could make money on the Mav.
 
They are going to use tracking devices to record the miles?  That’s not going to fly.  Then they will be using your mileage tracker to determine your guilt/innocence of crimes. 

They will use your tracker to determine that a woman drove to another state for reproductive care.

Ugly idea.

(Actually, the idea is fine; the abuse of that idea will be ugly.)
 
Here's the thing...many billions of tax dollars related to road construction and maintenance are at stake.  There are many things that government does poorly, but getting their funding from the taxpayers is not one of them.  Fret all you like over the details, but rest assured that EV drivers will begin paying their share (and perhaps some more) sooner rather than later.
 
I think mileage is the only way that will be equitable.

I read recently that the S-class Mercedes with the 580 engine/hybrid drive train will go up to 60 miles on pure EV.

I average about 25 miles per day and rarely do more that 40 miles.  If I had that car, how would they tax me?  As a gasoline driver or as an EV driver?

Miles traveled is what wears on the roadways.  My objection to the earlier post about that was how they collect that information.  If each time I buy gas, or each time I plug in, the accumulated miles was tallied, the the amount to be taxed could be assessed without the track ability of a chip equipped car.

 
Packard said:
I think mileage is the only way that will be equitable.

I read recently that the S-class Mercedes with the 580 engine/hybrid drive train will go up to 60 miles on pure EV.

I average about 25 miles per day and rarely do more that 40 miles.  If I had that car, how would they tax me?  As a gasoline driver or as an EV driver?

Miles traveled is what wears on the roadways.  My objection to the earlier post about that was how they collect that information.  If each time I buy gas, or each time I plug in, the accumulated miles was tallied, the the amount to be taxed could be assessed without the track ability of a chip equipped car.
Click to expand...

In OZ there's a small levy based on km's driven for any EV, with a slightly reduced rate for hybrids. So it actually works out more expensive to run a hybrid if you do over 50 or km's per day given the additional petrol cost.
 
One of the interesting things about Federalism in the US is that it makes it hard for people from different states to understand eah other when it comes to topics like "how to tax EVs".

What I mean by that is that some states have an annual EV registration fee to help recoup lost road use tax from gasoline sales.  Some states have fees on EV charging stations for electrical use.  Some states have net-metering for solar panels on homes while others don't.

And, most critically for the "mileage-based tax" conundrum, some states have mandatory annual inspections while others don't.

For someone who lives in a state where there are mandatory annual inspections, it's not hard for them to wrap their head around a mileage-based tax, because their mileage is already recorded by the State every year.  But it also means that an OBD-II or other "chip" that records and transmits the data would come across as redundant, at best, even without privacy concerns.

For someone who lives in a non-inspection state where mileage isn't even requested, let alone required, for anything other than a vehicle sale, most of the mileage-tracking options immediately scream "big brother".

Never mind the fact that, when I was younger, I actually spent more miles on roads in a neighboring state than I did in my home state, owing to my short commute, my use of foot power or pedal power for commuting, and my proximity to the state border making my road trips to see family 3/4 out-of-state and 1/4 in-state.

Gas taxes, like sales taxes, theoretically capture the revenue closest to the location where the activity takes place.  It's the best system that was available at the time.

Quite honestly the only people who well and truly pay their "fair share" of maintenance to use a given road are those who travel on toll roads, like them or not.  It is the most directly-correlated method of capturing a fee for using a given stretch of road, and in areas that use variable-rate tolling, one of the most direct implementations of supply-and-demand mechanics for pricing (graft, corruption, or other concerns aside).
 
In the early 1970s, I worked for a Philadelphia (Pennsylvania) based company.  I was a salesman covering New England, New York and New Jersey.  I lived in New York.

Pennsylvania had annual inspection requirements back then (and maybe now too).  But I would only visit the headquarters at Christmas time and at Easter time.  At Easter my inspection expired each year. 

So each Easter, when I drove to the home office, I would get stopped and I would get a ticket.  Not a problem.  I simply handed the ticket to our bookkeeper who would send them a check. 

I was driving about 60,000 mile per year back then.

My point is, it is not always going to be easy to get the mileage logged that way.  I think it is possible for a gas pump or EV station to check the mileage since the last refueling and add the appropriate tax to the invoice. 

But for travelers like me, the taxes would be applied to the wrong state in many cases.  On Sunday evenings I would always make sure that I had a full tank of gas for the Monday trip, where I would quickly transfer to New Jersey or Connecticut en route to New England.

So New York would collect a disproportionate amount of tax monies from me that rightly should be going to Connecticut, Rhode Island, Massachusetts, etc.

This is not going to be as easy as it might seem if you are trying to be equitable.  Of course politicians are not particularly worried about unfairness.  They just want you to “Show me the money”. 
 
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