router question
- Thread starter Toolpig
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Jerry Work
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Hi JW,
In my VS600 manual I did a short comparison between the two. Neither are "so so" in any way. They are both very capable professional machines that are light and easy to handle. The 1010 is a good continuious improvement upgrade.
Jerry
In my VS600 manual I did a short comparison between the two. Neither are "so so" in any way. They are both very capable professional machines that are light and easy to handle. The 1010 is a good continuious improvement upgrade.
Jerry
Toolpig said:
JW,
Pat Warner is a router guru. I admire his work and respect his knowledge about routing. His router fences and bases seem quite good (I don't own any, however). That said, I don't pay much attention to his router reviews.
The problem is not his knowledge, but his viewpoint. He is a fan of Dewalt and Porter Cable. That's OK, but problem is that he sells router bases for these routers (plus one or the Bosch PR 10/20 trim router).
Why only these routers? I think the answer is simple. To quote Willie Sutton (1930's bank robber) when asked why he robbed banks, "That's where the money is." For Pat, these brands are a big target market.
There are lots of Dewalt and Porter Cable routers out there. They are relatively inexpensive, sold by the big box stores, and have great name recognition. I've used some PC routers and think that they are quite nice. But that doesn't necessarily make them the best, just the most common. Also, they may not have some of the features that users want, which makes a market for Pat's bases.
So that is Pat's target market. It is in his best interest to promote those brands and not other brands. Therefore, I automatically discount his opinions about routers.
Does that make the OF1000 and OF1010 great routers? Better than those brands? I don't know. Maybe not. But if they were a large segment of the router market (and therefore a target market for Pat), I suspect Pat's reviews might be a bit better.
Regards,
Dan.
Pat Warner is a router guru. I admire his work and respect his knowledge about routing. His router fences and bases seem quite good (I don't own any, however). That said, I don't pay much attention to his router reviews.
The problem is not his knowledge, but his viewpoint. He is a fan of Dewalt and Porter Cable. That's OK, but problem is that he sells router bases for these routers (plus one or the Bosch PR 10/20 trim router).
Why only these routers? I think the answer is simple. To quote Willie Sutton (1930's bank robber) when asked why he robbed banks, "That's where the money is." For Pat, these brands are a big target market.
There are lots of Dewalt and Porter Cable routers out there. They are relatively inexpensive, sold by the big box stores, and have great name recognition. I've used some PC routers and think that they are quite nice. But that doesn't necessarily make them the best, just the most common. Also, they may not have some of the features that users want, which makes a market for Pat's bases.
So that is Pat's target market. It is in his best interest to promote those brands and not other brands. Therefore, I automatically discount his opinions about routers.
Does that make the OF1000 and OF1010 great routers? Better than those brands? I don't know. Maybe not. But if they were a large segment of the router market (and therefore a target market for Pat), I suspect Pat's reviews might be a bit better.
Regards,
Dan.
Dan, I think you are right on about a majority of reviews in publications. There is some big money at stake in advertising and kick-backs (! My Opinion!).
Regarding PC and some of the others, there are some pretty solid routers for tables out there. Again, in my opinion, I don't think Festool is the most user friendly Router when you turn it up-side-down.
At any rate, you are dead on with your perceptions. I think that looking through e-chatter is in many cases a much better way to get a feel for a tool you are going to layout cash for. Especially the upper end products!
Timmy C with $0.02
Regarding PC and some of the others, there are some pretty solid routers for tables out there. Again, in my opinion, I don't think Festool is the most user friendly Router when you turn it up-side-down.
At any rate, you are dead on with your perceptions. I think that looking through e-chatter is in many cases a much better way to get a feel for a tool you are going to layout cash for. Especially the upper end products!
Timmy C with $0.02
Pat is a very nice, honest and knowledgeable guy. But, he has not embraced the Festool concept for many of the reasons Dan has alluded to. Also, many of the products he offers are intended to enhance the utility of less capable routers. A noble venture, to be sure, but the OF series Festools have some of those enhancements built in or they are available as accessories from Festool. Pat does have some strong opinions about other router accessories as well. For example, he is not a fan of router lifts or table mounted plunge routers. Clearly, many people are not following his advice on these two issues either. I do not mean to impune Pat here. He is very pleasant, polite, helpful, and honorable. He doesn't rant or rave or send out trolls. He is clearly a good guy but his opinion is forged from what works for him personally and economically.
FWIW, I bought a Micro-Fence setup from Richard Wedler at a tool show a few years back. When he asked what model it was for I told him an OF1010 and his response was along the lines of, "Whoa, you really are serious about your routing! You are going to love this setup combined with that baby." If anyone knows the router game as well as Pat it is probably Richard.
Greg
FWIW, I bought a Micro-Fence setup from Richard Wedler at a tool show a few years back. When he asked what model it was for I told him an OF1010 and his response was along the lines of, "Whoa, you really are serious about your routing! You are going to love this setup combined with that baby." If anyone knows the router game as well as Pat it is probably Richard.
Greg
brandon.nickel
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I have to jump in and defend my PC 7518 mounted in my router table. When paired with a router lift and decent fence, this thing is a monster. I can't imagine spinning panel-raising bits on something smaller. In fact, I don't even have to creep up on panel-raising with cherry. I can take the whole thing down in one pass without the router bogging down or burning (CMT bits are decent too). So, just because it's not Festool doesn't necessarily mean it sucks. The PC7518 is a quality product.
Brandon,brandon.nickel said:
I have a Hitachi M12V. I bought it (cheap!) with the intention of using it for short hand-held work, then buy a better router (like a Festool), and then install the Hitachi in a router table. It didn't turn out that way.
After reading the manual (multiple times) and researching on the internet, I spent four hours trying to get the Hitachi zero'd to the surface. Wouldn't do it. The next morning (Saturday), I tried again, failed, and then gave up in frustration.
I ran down to a Local Woodecraft an bought a Festool OF1400. Within 15 minutes of opening the systainer for the first time, I read the relevant portions of the manual, set it up, zero'd it to the surface, popped in a bit, and routed a PERFECT slot in edge of a test board!
If you factor in my time, the OF1400 was dirt cheap and the Hitachi was expensive! Does that make the Hitachi bad? No. It's big, powerful and smooth. I'm going to rip out the springs and use it as a table router. I think it will be fine in that application.
Moral of this story? It's not that other tools are bad. It's just that Festool tools are consistently high quality, work together as a system, are reliable, and most importantly, they work as designed right out of the box with minimal hassle. Are they perfect? No. Closer to perfect than almost anything else? IMO, yes!
I have other tools that I'm quite happy with including my Dewalt planer and tile saw, and my Makita belt sander. I worked a bit (not much) with PC routers. They seem very good. The issue at hand is that the reviewer in question (Pat) seems to give high marks to routers for which he sells accessories and not to others. I question his objectivity.
Regards,
Dan.
Dave Ronyak
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No problem. The information posted by and available gratis from Pat Warner has helped me immensely to better understand use of routers, and what to consider when selecting a router for various jobs. So much so that I later bought one of his CDs, and will likely buy others produced by him. I have a Festool OF 1400 which is excellent, but is somewhat overly large and awkward for some jobs [mortising already installed passage door jambs] compared to the smaller routers such as the OF 1010. But if your interest is use of a router inverted in a table, Festool did not have a product to go head-to-head with a PC 7518 in a quality lift when I was setting up my router table. If the springs in the OF 1400 could be easily removed ... . I also own a Freud 2 1/4 HP router (13 Amp) which I have mounted to a router plate. The key problem with this Freud unit is that the fixed base unit supplied by Freud is not accurately machined which causes the centerline of the bit to move as depth of the bit [the amount the bit projects above the table top] is changed. This is not a problem for freehand or pattern routing, but will throw off any work that must remain calibrated relative to the fence while changing depth of cut. I should also note that my OF 1400 is NOT perfectly centered relative to the center of the snap-in adapter for use with PC style bushings, and there does not appear to be any adjustment. I bought a Whiteside inlay kit, and had to file the brass bushing to bring it closer to center relative to the router shaft. I marked both the bushing and the Festool snap-in adapter so I can re-install them in proper registration for best bit centering alignment. I also note that PC has not had to update the 7518 or drop its price to keep sales, although I wish they would do some updates [and make it quieter].
Dave R.
Dave R.
Dave Ronyak
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Eli said:
The PC adapter is a snap-in fitting supplied with the OF 1400 from Festool. I think the slight misalignment is due to the mounting of the Festool base of my OF 1400 relative to the center of rotation of the router shaft. I say this because rotating the snap-in adapter 180 degrees does not result in an equal offset in the opposite direction relative to the router shaft. I cannot find any user accessible adjustment to bring the center of a snap-in adapter or any other Festool snap-in bushing into perfectly centered alignment with the center axis of rotation of the router shaft. This alignment appears to be determined by the accuracy of the machining of the holes in the aluminum base into which the guide rods are secured.
The Whiteside inlay kit comes with a PC style brass screw-in bushing with a snap-on adapter to change the OD [offset] of the bushing, a centering pin for setup, and 1/8 cutting diameter 1/4 inch shank solid carbide bit. Based on many reports, Whiteside has a reputation for high quality. Rotating the router shaft with the centering pin or a bit confirms the misalignment is not due to a bent shaft or pin or bit. The Whiteside brass bushing is a very tight fit in the opening of the Festool PC adapter. I have a set of brass PC style adapters from Woodcraft, and their OD is less than that of Whiteside which allows some radial adjustment upon mounting. Because the fit of the Whiteside bushing is so tight relative to the Festool snap-in PC bushing adapter, there is no radial play. That is why I filed the OD of the threaded portion of the Whiteside bushing to coax it toward true center, and why I marked all components so I can repeat this "best alignment" setup. After this niggling, which did take me more than an hour of hand filing and repeated checks, the alignment was close enough to allow me to make some inlay patches to repair some old mahogany veneered doors.
To sum up, the misalignment was a disappointment, but not enough to cause me to want to ship the router back to Festool at that time to see if they could get it dead centered. Maybe I should take my unit to my local dealer [where I also purchased the Whiteside bits] and ask to check out alignment on another OF 1400.
Dave R.
Dave, I'd sure take it back to the dealer and ask. The snap-in guide rings is one of the features of the 1400 that I envy over the 1010. I carefully center the guide rings with the little cone every time I bolt one on, but if the 1400 isn't exactly centered there's a level of gadget lust I can let go of.
Dave Ronyak
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Good idea. I'll probably wait until Fall when my dealer [Harville Tool] typically has its own little woodworking show with several factory reps doing demos including Festool. Before then, I hope to be making shop cabinets and house furniture, and won't be needing that bushing mount.
Dave R.
Dave R.
Dan,
I don't think you've dug deep enough on Pat's site but he sells bases for many different routers, here's a list of the round bases.
1. Porter Cable (full line).
2. DeWalt 610, 625, 618.
3. DeWalt 621, cutter hole is centered on the 7-5/8" diameter, (see photo).
4. Bosch 6" diameter fixed base routers.
5. Bosch 1613
6. Bosch RA 1166 (Bosch plunger for 1617EVSPK)
7. Makita 1100 series fixed and plunge.
8. Fein RT 1800.
9. Milwaukee: All fixed base
10. Triton TRC-001
11. Generic 7" round plate, collar or 1-3/4" cutter hole. You must drill holes for your router. (Has 2 small holes in it used for manufacturing.)
12. Porter cable trimmers 7310/310 oversized (5") round subbase.
That plus the fact that many other routers use the PC hole spacing as a template and you can get just about any router base from him.
I own 6 of his bases and they are superb pieces of acrylic and extremely accurately machined.
I'm also pretty sure that he's moved over to the Milwaukee camp for his #1 big table router pick as well.
I've got no relationship with Pat, just think he makes some great bases.
I don't think you've dug deep enough on Pat's site but he sells bases for many different routers, here's a list of the round bases.
1. Porter Cable (full line).
2. DeWalt 610, 625, 618.
3. DeWalt 621, cutter hole is centered on the 7-5/8" diameter, (see photo).
4. Bosch 6" diameter fixed base routers.
5. Bosch 1613
6. Bosch RA 1166 (Bosch plunger for 1617EVSPK)
7. Makita 1100 series fixed and plunge.
8. Fein RT 1800.
9. Milwaukee: All fixed base
10. Triton TRC-001
11. Generic 7" round plate, collar or 1-3/4" cutter hole. You must drill holes for your router. (Has 2 small holes in it used for manufacturing.)
12. Porter cable trimmers 7310/310 oversized (5") round subbase.
That plus the fact that many other routers use the PC hole spacing as a template and you can get just about any router base from him.
I own 6 of his bases and they are superb pieces of acrylic and extremely accurately machined.
I'm also pretty sure that he's moved over to the Milwaukee camp for his #1 big table router pick as well.
I've got no relationship with Pat, just think he makes some great bases.
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