Sander Comparison in FWW

[Ken Milhinch]

Am I the only one who sensed there was a lot of subjective nonsense in this comparison article ? Whilst they rated the ETS 150/3 the best they rated the Rotex poorly. Apparently it makes your "hands tingle" and it is "exhausting to use in random orbit mode". Most people I know rate the Rotex as the best sander they have ever owned. Furthermore, I would wonder how they determined that the vacuum dust collection on one sander was, say, 92% and on another 93%. I wonder what "scientific" measure was used to come up with those numbers.

 

[Notorious T.O.D.]

I have not seen the review yet but it seems to me that even comparing the ETS 150/3 or 5 with a Rotax 150 is not a fair comparison.  Even if we just look at these two sanders they are designed for different uses and have vastly different price points.  Sort of apples and oranges to me...

Notorious T.O.D.

 

[Dan Clermont]

Am I the only one who sensed there was a lot of subjective nonsense in this comparison article ? Whilst they rated the ETS 150/3 the best they rated the Rotex poorly. Apparently it makes your "hands tingle" and it is "exhausting to use in random orbit mode". Most people I know rate the Rotex as the best sander they have ever owned. Furthermore, I would wonder how they determined that the vacuum dust collection on one sander was, say, 92% and on another 93%. I wonder what "scientific" measure was used to come up with those numbers.

I can't say for sure how they came up with 92% and 93% for dust collection but with the KAPEX they measure the weight of the board and the weight of the dust extractor bag empty. Make a series of cuts and then measure the board and the dust extractor bag. If the board weighed 1000 grams to start and the off cuts weigh 800 grams and the dust bag dust or waste weighs 150 grams you missed 50 grams of dust.

Dan Clermont

 

[Ken Milhinch]

Dan,

That's how they did it, but we are not talking about very many grams of dust from a sander, and who is to say there is nothing left in the dust hose ?
To me it's one of those measures that sounds good at first,but does not bear examination. In any event I mention it only to point out that it is silly to get down to 1% of dust collection.
I also note that they did not use Festool sanding disks, so the measured amount of stock removal is also questionable.

 

[ROb McGilp]

Personally, I felt the RO150 was given a bum rap. I am sure I am not the only person who has used the RO for large pieces happily in place of a belt sander and not felt "exhaustion" as a side effect. I frequently use the RO150 for extended periods of time and have not come away with tingling fingers or tiredness.
I'd be interested in other peoples' views regarding the RO150 as a general means of stock removal and subsequent finishing of a workpiece.
I too believe that comparing the ETS150/3 with the RO150 is a waste of time.

Regards,

Rob

 

[Daviddubya]

...I also note that they did not use Festool sanding disks, so the measured amount of stock removal is also questionable.

Fine Woodworking did a ROS test in the July/August 2006 issue, and did not use Festool discs on the Festool sander.  The supposition was that all of the sanders needed to use the same discs to get a comparable test.  I wrote to FWW and pointed out that using sanding dioscs without the center hole invalidates the test for the Festool sander, since the center hole is an integral element in dust extraction.

I have not seen the latest article, but if they did this test without a Festool sanding disc, and the 150/3 still came out on top, imagine how well it would have done with the right paper.  Testing the Rotex with a disc without a center hole would invalidate the test, IMHO.  This makes me wonder if the same author did the recent test and the one back in 2006???

 

[nickao]

Well the RO has built up my arm and hand strength significantly.

The test is stupid, how about using the Festool discs for all the other sanders for the test then what are the results. The festools are a system. That's like putting a 10" blade on a test for saws that are 12".

At the very least they should have used the Abranet which would have at least given the Festool a chance to be used as intended. Heck in the manual it says you have to use Festool discs so they should have not included the Festool sander in the tests at all if they were going to go against the req of the sander.

Nick

 

[johnsonri]

The RO150 definitely got a bum rap there. However, there is a much higher learning curve for getting teh technique just right. Once a person gets the technique down, the RO150 is by far the best tool on the market for its purpose.

I wonder if the guys over there at FWW have put in the necessary fews hours to learn the RO150 to get the technique down? This is not a tool that you just slap on auto pilot and go. 

To me, this is exactly like saying that the Ferrari is poor because you have to put in time to learn the F1 transmission. If you're gonna test a $300,000 Ferrari, learn the finer points of the machine and don't say that a Honda performs better because of your driving technique or lack thereof.

In the same vain, if you're gonna test the RO, learn the finer points of the machine and don't say that some {name your sander} ranks better because of poor techinique or failure to understand the system.

THIS IS THE BEST SANDER ON THE PLANET RIGHT NOW!!! 

Rey

 

[UCLA Fan]

Hi everyone,

For those that missed the article, i have an online membership to their site so here are some quotes from the comparison regarding the ro150....

FWW 6" sander comparison

"The Festool Rotex can be switched from rotary motion for aggressive stock removal to random-orbital motion for fine sanding. Designed to be used only with a vacuum hose attached, it was quite a handful, particularly in rotary mode where even two hands couldn?t prevent it from jumping and moving the workpiece. Even the random-orbit mode proved exhausting: The sander was noisy and rough-sounding, with a noticeable vibration that left our hands tingling. If you want fast stock removal, the Bosch 1250DEVS and the Makita BO6040 offer similar or better performance for half the price. "

Qoute from the body of the article...
To test each sander?s stock-removal rate, we used the same method Andy Engel employed to test 5-in. random-orbit sanders... We weighed an 8-in. by 24-in. cherry board on a scale accurate to 1 gram (28.35 grams = 1 oz.); then we sanded the board using a P100-grit hook-and-loop disk from Klingspor for exactly five minutes. Then we weighed the board again to while keeping its orbital pattern. The Fein, Makita BO6040, Bosch 1250DEVS, and Festool RO 150 FEQ (right) all employ this combination of fast rotation and random orbit. It removes stock almost as fast as a belt sander or a grinder, but without the deep scratches, because the same piece of grit doesn?t pass over the same section of wood even with the sander held steady.... Conclusion.... Which 6-in. sander is right for you? The single-mode Festool ETS 150/3 EQ and Bosch 3727DEVS combine a good rate of wood removal, especially when hooked to a vacuum, with easy control... The need for a sander with a coarse mode is harder to justify. On the one hand, most do remove wood quicker than a fine- mode 6-in. or 5-in. sander, but with the most aggressive machines you will have a serious fight on your hands each time you turn them on. The Makita BO6040, the Bosch 1250DEVS, and the Festool RO 150 FEQ all offer a high rate of stock removal. But you are likely to reach for another sander to handle narrow or confined spaces. ? Mark Schofield is the managing editor and Bob Nash is the shop manager for Fine Woodworking"

I really don't think there is much bias here other then - they really don't like "coarse mode" sanders. I have a rotex 150 and overall they are correct. It (and any other grinder mode sander) IS a real handful and takes a bit of time to get use too. I have small hands and to me the rotex is a beast. It IS loud, it is very powerful and will throw small material across my shop if not clamped down, my hands do tingle slightly after long use, it gets hot during large stock removal and after using it non-stop 10 hours a day for 3 days last week my hands hurt like hell!!! BUT that is what it is supposed to do and why I bought it in the first place. I wish it was really quite and had no vibration and could fit in the palm of my hand and cost $50 and... and... But again it is the nature of the beast when in "coarse mode" Now when in random orbit mode it is still a tad large but more of a kitten then a tiger and I like it very much. I do agree with the article: I do reach for a 5 inch ros to finish my work when ever possible. It fits my hand better, has a 3mm stroke so a slightly better fine finish, it is just easier to control. Of course Festool will ALWAYS take a hit for cost. The ro150 is twice as much as the makita and the bosch and from many people here on the fog the bosch is reported to be a fine tool. In my opinion ALL of these tests have some form of bias. Maybe you are like me and have small hands therefore tools from makita and panasonic will tend to rate high on my list because they have small handles. Or you have large hands and hate those two as being "toy like". Therefore I read all the articles with a grain of salt and try to read through the authors inherent bias. BTW in a former life I was a research analyst for a health and fitness publishing house and although they tried to be "scientific" in their approach THEY FAILED MISERABLY! Some really good info in the article but a poor attempt at the scientific protocol. It really annoys me when someone says they have science to validate their opinion but the science is weak at best.

Frank

 

[nickao]

The Bosch 1250DEVSm is as good as the Rotex, I have it, but it is not head and shoulders above the Rotex like they are stating.

They do not get that this Rotex sander runs unlike any other sander and when you get the hang of it there is no better.

If you do not have the money for a Rotex there is no question the Bosch unit is the one to get.

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Am I the only one who sensed there was a lot of subjective nonsense in this comparison article ? Whilst they rated the ETS 150/3 the best they rated the Rotex poorly. Apparently it makes your "hands tingle" and it is "exhausting to use in random orbit mode". Most people I know rate the Rotex as the best sander they have ever owned. Furthermore, I would wonder how they determined that the vacuum dust collection on one sander was, say, 92% and on another 93%. I wonder what "scientific" measure was used to come up with those numbers.

I can't say for sure how they came up with 92% and 93% for dust collection but with the KAPEX they measure the weight of the board and the weight of the dust extractor bag empty. Make a series of cuts and then measure the board and the dust extractor bag. If the board weighed 1000 grams to start and the off cuts weigh 800 grams and the dust bag dust or waste weighs 150 grams you missed 50 grams of dust.

Dan Clermont

I have that FWW issue and article.  When using the "on-board" dust collection bag with a sander, they said they weighed the whole sander with its collection bag before and after sanding the wood sample for 5 minutes.  And when using a vacuum machine (Festool CT-22 bag illustrated in the article) they removed the bag and weighed it before and after each test to the nearest gram.  At page 65, in the right column they wrote: "But we quickly found that the stock removal rate varied considerably depending on an individual's sanding style, and in particular how much pressure he applied to the machine.  To keep the comparison between different machines reliable, we decided to go with Bob Nash's lighter touch."  They used P100 grit hook and loop sandpaper from Klingspor, a new sanding disk for each test, and sanded on cherry wood.

Note that FWW admitted that the test was inherently subject to operator technique.   

My opinion is that if the abrasive machine in rotary mode is going to tear away a lot of wood, then it is likely to generate a lot of reaction torque, and thus be harder to hold and control.

I wonder what result FWW would have obtained had they used Festool brand sanding supplies with the Festool sanders.  I know that Kingspor makes disks with the correct hole pattern for Festool, and that overall, Klingspor makes good abrasive products.

I like my RO 125 very much  -- for rough work; and yes, it takes two hands to control it when in rotary mode.  It was the first Festool product I purchased.  I used it for a lot of plaster repair work, and sanding several old doors.  But after having purchased several other Festool sanders, the RO 125 is not the one I reach for when I want a fine finish and complete control as when making furniture with new lumber.  The RO still earns its keep polishing and waxing my cars.

Dave R.