SawStop in NY Times

J

jeh

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Might be of interest to some. Comments are peppered with the same excuses and reasoning both for and against it. Tablesaws definitely lead the way when it comes to amputations. The interesting thing for me was the chart showing Amputations from consumer products. The power saw and other power tools are obvious. What is not is how there can be 90 amputations with a hand saw. Hammer is like 60, but that could be a crushed finger (maybe a sledgehammer). I do not know how you can amputated a limb or finger with a handsaw unless it is from an infection from a cut.

This link should get your through the paywall:
https://www.nytimes.com/2024/03/30/...e_code=1.hE0.Gkav.CsKHTG_XZSGH&smid=url-share
 
I assume that they are talking about finger amputations.  I think that should have been made clear in the article. 

I high school, in the early 1960s, I knew a kid named Tony.  He used to bring a flask to school and would finish off a pint by the time school let out. 

He also, it was rumored, gambled.

I ran into him several years after high school and he had lost both of his arms just below the elbow. 

I was fairly shocked when I saw that.  He had two prosthetic “hands” (with grasping metal hooks).

I asked him what had happened and he said that he was working at a custom cabinet shop and had an industrial accident on the table saw. 

I had never stepped closer to a table saw than the next aisle over at Sears.  So I did not know to ask for more details.

In retrospect, I am assuming that the “industrial accident” was helped along by a couple of strong guys collecting money from his gambling.  I have nothing to back that up, but it makes more sense than losing both arms in an accident on a table saw.

I would think that the Debt Collection Facilitators Association would take exception for Saw Stop as it would take a valuable collection tool out of their hands. [eek]
 
Yeah, [member=74278]Packard[/member] other than the scenario you mentioned, the only other way I can see losing both hands would be stumble into an unguarded blade (way too high also) which also follows with the drinking?
 
Crazyraceguy said:
Yeah, [member=74278]Packard[/member] other than the scenario you mentioned, the only other way I can see losing both hands would be stumble into an unguarded blade (way too high also) which also follows with the drinking?
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Not just hands.  The arms too, just short of the elbow.

He must have worked very near to the hospital.  You’d think that he would have bled out.  It makes me uncomfortable just thinking about it.

One thing for sure…it didn’t happen tha way he said it did.
 
You can override the safety on the SawStop in case you are cutting conductive materials like wet wood, soft metals etc. The credit and collections industries will just need to send out a memo to their brute squads ... presuming they can read.
 
twistsol1 said:
You can override the safety on the SawStop in case you are cutting conductive materials like wet wood, soft metals etc. The credit and collections industries will just need to send out a memo to their brute squads ... presuming they can read.
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The article could have used some clarity. Plenty of commenters have never used a SawStop. Lots of concern about loss of blade and brake when triggered, which is absurd considering you are still intact and are out fewer dollars than an ER visit and that assume nothing done other than being admitted. Same for the wet lumber and soft metals. Most had no clue you can turn it off. Some thought the entire saw was throwaway after being tripped. Of course lots of manly men who made it clear it could never happen to them because they are safe. Surprising number of entries from people who had a save and MD's who have reattached fingers. They made it clear you will never be the same.

My observation is the cheap table saws are done and will disappear from the shelves soon. Moderately priced ones will survive for a while and then disappear. The price of a table saw will increase, but scale will get it down to less than $100.

A suitable alternative is a track saw. Way safer and can do almost as much, but of course they are not cheap.

One other thing...several people commented it will not make a difference because the old ones will be in use for a long time and will demand higher prices. It's a ridiculous premise as we do not throw away older cars when newer ones are introduced with more safety devices. For the record I do think there is a limit to how much safety you can have. Cars are at that point in terms of after accidents happen and I think almost all the new stuff is aimed at stopping the accidents before they happen.
 
JimH2 said:
...
A suitable alternative is a track saw. Way safer and can do almost as much, but of course they are not cheap.
...
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A reasonable-quality chinese tracksaw is €/$ 60-70. With a quality blade it jumps to €/$ 100. With an FS/2 LR32 1400 it gets to €/$ 250 or so total.
Way less than a comparable-cut-quality tablesaw.

We have a few in our community shop. With a quality blade, riding an FS/2 track, they the cut comparable to a Makita SP6000. Even the dust collection is comparable. Yet no one has an itch to grow them legs, why we got them.

Sure, they are louder, do not catch dust as well, have less power, but the cuts are pretty close to a TSC. Way closer than from a $250 tablesaw.

Some do it, so it can be done. Yes, most cheap tracksaws are horrible ... but it is a choice, not a necessity to be such.

As for table saws, IMO mandating a sawstop-like safety would be a good thing. $100 tablesaws just should not exist in my view. Those unstable wobbling things are just accidents waiting to happen.
 
mino said:
As for table saws, IMO mandating a sawstop-like safety would be a good thing. $100 tablesaws just should not exist in my view. Those unstable wobbling things are just accidents waiting to happen.
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Not unlike Chinese make cars that cost way less the cheapest 2024 car sold in the US ($16,390 according to KBB). Made but never to be sold in the US (or EU, AU, JP, etc) without tremendous safety improvements.
 
In the early 1980's I restarted woodworking in my mid twenties. I took the router, drill, and circular saw my dad bought me when I was 12 (!) and brought them to my new place with a garage. I bought a folding table with a metal plate designed to hold a circular saw upside down. It even had a miter gauge and rip fence (manually aligned). It came with a guard mounted to a piece of sheet metal with dragging kickback pawls that was so bad I never used it. I built a big firewood rack and a baby cradle and more with it.

Today I count myself lucky I didn't injure myself. After making those pieces I decided I was going to stick with woodworking and so I went out and bought a real tablesaw (Inca 2100) that I still use today. It has a riving knife (pretty unique in the 1980s) and I got the optional overarm blade guard. I probably should get a SawStop now, but I like the 12" blade and the overall size/accuracy/finese of the Inca. As I haven't had an injury on the saw while it was running in the last 4 decades, hopefully I won't lose my concentration or patience as I get older. I do use lots of hold-downs, push blocks, etc.
 
After watching and thinking about it:
1) I think he's right that the CPSC will pass flesh-sensing technology requirement regulations.
2) It is interesting that in the past, the EU has led safety regulations, such as requiring riving knives and the more recent dado stack requirements (that only just now are available). So this would be a change in the historical order of things.
3) I think he's wrong that the CPSC will ban sales of used tablesaws. Radial arm saws are still legally sold, as are older tablesaws without riving knives.
4) I think he's right that existing compact tablesaws will go up in value. A DeWalt DWE7485 compact tablesaw costs about $375 today. Adding the SawStop tech will add $300 easily. All of these under $400 saws will probably go away. The DeWalt DWE7491 costs $550. It's a larger saw and may survive, but again will be more expensive. Maybe I should buy a bunch of these saws and keep them in unopened boxes to sell for $100 more apiece when the law passes?  /jk
5) A possible side consequence of the cheap compact tablesaws going away is that track saws will become even more popular. Makita is probably going to sell a ton of their bang for the buck track saws.
 
Heh, the Makita thing had me giggle a bit considering so many users have the kickback smile on their rails :P

In their defense though, it appears they've recently released an add-on (1913J9-2) to somewhat control the saw when it does happen.

* I love Makitas, but that saw design does scare me.
 
aint nobody gonna rip construction lumber with a track saw

i'm all for this nonsense with current saws to end. steve gass motives are shown time and again to be the safety of the public

the analogy with blade guard being equivalent to flesh sensing tech is absurd. it would be like applying speed limiter on your car instead of putting in air bags and crumple zones. its ridiculous. we all have more cars per person than ever before, none of the safety tech has prevented people from purchasing cars

if a table saw ends up being a more significant cost, so be it. there's nothing stopping people from mounting circular saws under a piece of plywood if they want to be cheap

 
If I was AN Other manufacturer giving evidence at the hearings I'd be pointing out that Festool who's parent company owns SawStop and therefore they have access to license the patent didn't implement it on their battery powered table saw (apparently because there isn't an 'earth'). Given jobsite everything is racing towards battery power it seems like the legislation isn't really thought through.

It isn't like because it's battery powered it isn't going to cut your finger off. I have a battery powered Stihl MSA chainsaw that is capable of 30m/s chain-speed. That sort of speed used to be reserved for their biggest saws.
 
Would be good if this becomes compulsory on new saws. I think once manufacturers have a clear financial reason to add a safety feature (no sales otherwise) they will be able to do it much faster than they're saying right now.

I know Felder, SCM, and Altendorf have similar technologies for their panel saws that have come out in the last 2 years. And these all use different systems, suggesting that it's definitely feasible for other companies to do the same without infringing on SawStop patents.
 
Just as an aside, I had a moment of stupid that involved a chisel and my thumb. I wasted an hour at Doc in the Box before they told me to go the hospital Emergency Room for stiches. If more than a small bandage might be needed, just go to the hospital.
 
simonh said:
If I was AN Other manufacturer giving evidence at the hearings I'd be pointing out that Festool who's parent company owns SawStop and therefore they have access to license the patent didn't implement it on their battery powered table saw (apparently because there isn't an 'earth'). Given jobsite everything is racing towards battery power it seems like the legislation isn't really thought through.
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Part of the ace up the sleeves of TTS, is that they have the spring activation patent, and one more recently filed impulse solenoid patent (WO2022106424A1, Festool Gmbh).  The later is likely what one utilize in a battery operated brake system.  It doesn't cover detection, but that's the beauty of it since regardless of anything the other manufacturers come up with regards to identification, they still have to activate the brake assembly to the blade - and there are only so many simple ways one can do it.  The spring one should not have held, but retardation at the US court level has everyone second guessing what can actually pass (note that sawstop didn't try their luck elsewhere).

It's only a matter of time before TTS figures out a non-grounded way of detection that isn't patented by the others (or just license it, oh say from Bosch - LOL).  Thus hinging your argument that TTS doesn't have a battery safety is risky.
 
woodferret said:
...
It's only a matter of time before TTS figures out a non-grounded way of detection that isn't patented by the others (or just license it, oh say from Bosch - LOL).  Thus hinging your argument that TTS doesn't have a battery safety is risky.
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I would be suprised if any regulation did not include a "bigger than" clause, starting at a certain blade size or a certain maximum depth of cut.

Thinking with a regulatory mind, I would expect a generic requirement to prevent amputations, not necessarily prevent injuries per se. Specified in a testable way - as in "blade must stop and/or leave the area within XYZ of a second" or something along those lines.

The CSC, as is, may not be able to fit into that, but pretty sure there will be some limit to not cover saws like the PROXXON mini table saw.

Then, a brushless motor-brake saw with a small and light blade - aka the CSC - may actually pass that after some tuning, maybe withn an addition of a detection mechanism and just a simple partial brake. For all we know, the current CSC may be already designed with such an upgrade in mind.
 
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